Tongue Weight best practice

[chartrand]

I'm new and joined the forums because I'm looking at purchasing a Keystone Travel Trailer. I thought I had everything figured out and was going to purchase the Premier 26BHPR (5048Dry Weight and 645lbs tongue), but I'm starting to wonder if it's to much for my vehicle. I have a 2011 Dodge Durango (7200 lbs towing and 720 lbs tongue). As you can see I think I'm good on the dry weight, but I'm wondering if the tongue weight is to much. Especially once I add people and gear in the vehicle and gear in the trailer. Any thoughts, is there a guideline I should consider for tongue weight?

Thanks
Pat

[f6bits]

You’ll also likely go over max rear axle weight, even with a weight distributing hitch. Your vehicle payload (gross weight minus curb weight) is probably 1200 lbs or so, leaving you less than 600 lbs for passengers, gear, fuel, and whatever you load into the trailer that increases tongue weight.

My setup certainly isn’t optimal, and it’s similar to yours, but less dry and tongue weight. I’d suggest that you keep browsing through Keystone’s site at the light weight trailers until you find one with less tongue weight.

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by chartrand

I'm new and joined the forums because I'm looking at purchasing a Keystone Travel Trailer. I thought I had everything figured out and was going to purchase the Premier 26BHPR (5048Dry Weight and 645lbs tongue), but I'm starting to wonder if it's to much for my vehicle. I have a 2011 Dodge Durango (7200 lbs towing and 720 lbs tongue). As you can see I think I'm good on the dry weight, but I'm wondering if the tongue weight is to much. Especially once I add people and gear in the vehicle and gear in the trailer. Any thoughts, is there a guideline I should consider for tongue weight?

Thanks
Pat

I towed a travel trailer for many years. It was 5,500# GVW and about 4,000# dry weight. The tongue was supposed to be around 600#, but we scaled it at 820#. I pulled it for most of it's life with us with a Dodge Ram 1500 V8 which was rated to pull 7,800#.

The real life fact is that your tongue weight could actually go much higher, and that would put you over the Durango's limit. Also carrying a typical load of camping gear and people would also move you quite close to the Durango's max.

FWIW, I have the 2011 Jeep equivalent of your Durango sitting in my driveway. They are basically the same car. If I were to consider pulling a travel trailer with the Grand Cherokee, I'd stick to a unit in the 5,500# or under GVWR range.

Conventional wisdom in the RV world has always been that you should have a safety margin between the TV's max trailer weight and the GVWR (not dry weight) of the trailer. There's a lot of debate about how big that margin should be. Some say 25% while others say 10% and you'll hear everything in between and beyond in both directions. Your proposed trailer's GVWR is probably 7,200# to 7,800# which leaves you at best with a 0% safety margin against the Durango's maximum.

I believe you would be very unhappy trying to pull that large a trailer with the Durango.

[f6bits]

Going along with what Steve said, my trailer gross is a little above my vehicle’s max tow. We *really* wanted this floor plan, so we have to scale back everywhere else. No long trips, no mountain driving, and we can’t carry as much gear as we’d like. That keeps us more than 10% under max, but the lack of capacity headroom limits our range.

If I were to do it again, I’d keep looking for a lighter trailer. I *really* like my tow vehicle, and can’t justify getting a dedicated one.

[f6bits]

Well, this is amusing, you’re looking at the same floor plan that I have, but I have an ultralight. Specs say that hitch is 590, and that’s what I measured at the scale loaded for a trip, though I was *very* careful how I loaded the trailer.

Still, my rear axle weight is close to max, even with weight distribution which I’m still tinkering with.

If you want a Bullet you’ll enjoy towing, I’d recommend the Bullet Ultralight 230BHS. You lose the couch, but that’s about. You’ll save a *lot* of weight. If you’re ok with the Passport series, which is a little more basic, there’s the 2650BH.

Another consideration is your wheelbase in relation to the overall length of the trailer. My trailer is a little long for my Jeep, but with my Equalizer hitch’s sway control, it’s quite manageable. The 230BHS is a couple of feet shorter which makes it that much more manageable.

[ktmracer]

to your "dry" tongue weight add the propane (60lbs for 2 7.5gal tanks)and battery(s), @ 75lbs each. so a setup with two full 30lb propane tanks + 2 batteries puts your real "dry" tongue weight at 850lbs.

Dry tongue weight is measured as the trailer leaves the factory, and for keystone they leave the factory w/o any propane in the tanks and no batteries on the tongue.

One battery and one tank would still put you at about 750lbs dry. My guess your "real" loaded tongue weight is going to be in the 900+lb range. Based on my experience (somewhat limited) I have yet to find someone who overestimated their trailers loaded tongue weight. (myself included). Many a folk was quite suprised when we measured the loaded tongue weight with a sherline scale. In my case dry tongue weight was 720lbs, I estimated 1200 lbs, and when actually measured I am at 1300 w/o water 1400 with water. That is almost double the dry tongue weight claimed. But it is very close to 15% of GVW of the trailer (9000lbsGVW)

[SAABDOCTOR]

HI THERE I READ ALL THE REPLY'S TO YOUR POST!! YOU ARE CUTTING IT WAY TO CLOSE. I HAVE NEVER BEEN A FAN OF SUV'S DOING A TRUCKS WORK. IF YOU ARE SET ON THAT TT MAY BE YOU SHOULD CONSIDER MOVING UP TO A BIGGER TV. YOU NEVER KNOW WHEN THE DW SAYA I LIKE THAT 5ER OVER THERE!! AT LEAST YOU'LL HAVE THE TV COVERED AND DON'T SAY THAT WON'T HAPPEN PS ALL IT TAKES IS MONEY!

[chartrand]

Thanks everyone!! I do appreciate your input on this. So what I need to walk away with is simply that my fear was correct and this Trailer is really to much for my Tow Vehicle. I'm stuck with this vehicle, momma likes her SUV and I communte to far every day to be driving a truck, so my Durango is going to be my TV for at least the next 7 years.

As stated I need to find something that weighs less, and I should be looking at have a margin of at least 10% of GVWR. So in my case I need to look for a trailer with A GVWR that does not exceed 6480#. In attition I've learned that while the Tongue weight is important and does not include the weight of the Propane Takes, or the batteries. However the weight distributing hitch is designed to take some of that weight off the hitch. So with those two things in mind, could I just try and make sure that my tongue wieght is say 550# or less (dry spec from manufacturer) of my allotted 720 vehicle rating as a good guideline?

So in summary for my size TV, I need a trailer that has a 6480# GVWR or less and a tongue weight of 550# or less and maybe something that at most 26 Feet long, but I really should be looking at 23 feet or less? Do I have that about right?

[ktmracer]

Originally Posted by chartrand

Thanks everyone!! I do appreciate your input on this. So what I need to walk away with is simply that my fear was correct and this Trailer is really to much for my Tow Vehicle. I'm stuck with this vehicle, momma likes her SUV and I communte to far every day to be driving a truck, so my Durango is going to be my TV for at least the next 7 years.

As stated I need to find something that weighs less, and I should be looking at have a margin of at least 10% of GVWR. So in my case I need to look for a trailer with A GVWR that does not exceed 6480#. In attition I've learned that while the Tongue weight is important and does not include the weight of the Propane Takes, or the batteries. However the weight distributing hitch is designed to take some of that weight off the hitch. So with those two things in mind, could I just try and make sure that my tongue wieght is say 550# or less (dry spec from manufacturer) of my allotted 720 vehicle rating as a good guideline?

So in summary for my size TV, I need a trailer that has a 6480# GVWR or less and a tongue weight of 550# or less and maybe something that at most 26 Feet long, but I really should be looking at 23 feet or less? Do I have that about right?

I'd say your on the right track, I wish more folks would spend as much effort as you have to determine if their TV really is up to the task asked of it before jumping into a trailer!! Good work. However, a 6500lb GVWR does mean you could be near 900lbs for loaded tongue weight when fully loaded.

Also, a WD Hitch does NOT repeat NOT reduce tongue weight!! What a WD hitch does is move load from the TV rear axle to the TV front axle and Trailer axles. the actual Tongue weight does not change.

[chartrand]

So your saying that in your experience one should look at the GVWR and multiply it by .15 (15%) to get what's probably a more accurate tongue weight? So in my example above that would put me at 972# tongue weight, which is more than my vehicle's recommended 720#'s... By this calculation I woudl need a Trailer with a GVWR with only 4800#....Yikes that really restricts me to a pretty small trailer or dare I say a Pop-Up...<groan>....

[SteveC7010]

Originally Posted by chartrand

So your saying that in your experience one should look at the GVWR and multiply it by .15 (15%) to get what's probably a more accurate tongue weight? So in my example above that would put me at 972# tongue weight, which is more than my vehicle's recommended 720#'s... By this calculation I woudl need a Trailer with a GVWR with only 4800#....Yikes that really restricts me to a pretty small trailer or dare I say a Pop-Up...<groan>....

Take a closer look at TT's in the 5,500# GVWR class. I think you may find some that have tongue weights that will work for you. Our '99 Sunline had a GVWR of 5,500# and a rated tongue weight of 640 or so. We towed with the dually the year I scaled the tongue so I suspect I didn't pay much attention to balancing the load. The duallie don't care...

Had I paid attention to load balance, I am certain that the tongue would have been much closer to the 640# mark.

FWIW, that was a 25' trailer and not a "lite" one either.

[ktmracer]

Originally Posted by chartrand

So your saying that in your experience one should look at the GVWR and multiply it by .15 (15%) to get what's probably a more accurate tongue weight? So in my example above that would put me at 972# tongue weight, which is more than my vehicle's recommended 720#'s... By this calculation I woudl need a Trailer with a GVWR with only 4800#....Yikes that really restricts me to a pretty small trailer or dare I say a Pop-Up...<groan>....

for towing stability, the tongue weight should be in the range of 10% of trailer weight minimum. that's to have a setup that isn't likely to sway due to inadequate tongue weight. Generally, the upper limit on tongue weight is in the 15% range. These are "rules of thumb" but the majority of trailers end up in this range. exceptions are ones with water and stuff in the front (>15%) or a few with back storage and water behind the axle that can be problematic and end up under 10%.

both the min and max are significantly affected by the initial trailer design. That is, the mfg designs the trailer so that nominal tongue weight is within that range with "normal" loading of stuff you put in the trailer. Placement of things like water tanks, storage compartments, pantrys etc. all play into what the final loaded tongue weight is, along with the all important How many batteries and how much propane.

given your situation, I'd look at trailers in the 5500 lb GVW, maybe 6000 max. or less. Then, all trailers built after about 2008 MUST BY LAW have a yellow sticker on the entry door that lists the empty weight, and cargo carrying capacity (CCC). If the CCC is 500lbs or so, figure you will likely use ALL of that up. If it's 1000lbs, you have some to spare if you pack carefully.

then, and this is the hard part! insist on the dealer measuring the actual tongue weight of the trailer with batteries and full propane. That's going to give you info on how close you are to your tongue weight limit. I say the hard part because it's pretty uncommon for dealers to have a tongue weight scale, even though a sherline tongue weight scale capable of reading to 2000lbs is only about $125.

Also, unless your planning on camping at places w/o power hookups, you really only need one 12V marine battery, the smallest size the make (don't recall the size), that will help, (figure 50lbs for the battery) and in a smaller trailer, unless your going to be gone long time or very cold, you could get by with a single 5 (20lb) or 7.5 gallon (30lb) propane tank. If your often hooked to electric the fridge can run on electric, as well as many Water heaters. that leaves propane for cooking and heating, and maybe hot water. If your careful, a 7.5 gallon (30lb) propane tank could easily last weeks in the summer a week in the winter. Our 35' trailer in the late fall goes about 7 days on 30lbs and thats running the furnace, WH, stove, oven and fridge since we are often dry camping. And a 35' takes a while to warm up in the AM when it gets down into the 30's at night. If you can do this, you'll help your tongue weight considerably since for all practical purposes, almost all of the propane tank and battery weight goes onto the tongue since it's so close to the tongue.

And don't listen to the salesman who says "don't worry that TV can handle it, I've had hundreds of folks just like you towing way bigger trailers with that rig and they've never had any problems, towing thousands of miles, plenty of power, no sway........ on and on..."

Stick with it, I think you'll be able to find something you like and will work.

[f6bits]

I sure find it curious that the TV manufacturer’s specs for tongue is *exactly* 10% of towing capacity. Which one is the real limiting factor? I believe it’s the towing capacity since Class IV can go up to 1,000 lbs. But, as I said earlier, I believe that the real limiting factor is the TV’s payload capacity and rear axle weight limit, which can be hit long before the tongue limit is hit, thereby limiting the actual towing weight limit with consideration of percentage on the tongue.

[chuck&gail]

Careful. Tongue weight is measured WITHOUT the WDH connected. The spec assumes you measure it properly. No cheating, WDH does NOT change spec or TT tongue weight.

For no sway, and safe handling, you want 13% to 15% of the FULLY LOADED TT weight on the tongue.

Putting a Class V hitch on a Pinto does NOT increase its tow rating. VEHICLES have tongue weight limit specs. Hopefully the vehicle hitch at least equals that spec, but a larger hitch does NOT change the VEHICLE tongue weight spec.

My SUV tows our TT just fine thanks, some SUV's work fine if the TT is chosen carefully.