Unsafe - Under Any Conditions

[Festus2]

After reading some of the above posts, I am thinking that it was a huge mistake on my part for submitting the original post in this thread. The OP was somewhat controversial and my hope was that any "discussion" that followed would be both calm and reasoned.

However, I should have known that somewhere along the line, there was a strong possibility that it could become negative and argumentative. It appears as though the worms in the can have started to turn.

If you want to discuss this issue - without being argumentative - here on the open forum, please do so. So, let's carry on and keep the comments constructive.

[Essness]

I find these threads interesting. I pull with a 1/2 ton truck and I'm real close to my limit. I own a half ton on purpose. I drive it for work and need to shuttle 3 to 4 adults to and from lunch as well as pull the camper on the weekends. 90% of the time I drive the truck its a lunch shuttle and ride quality is important. The other 10% of the time breaks down as follows,
2% pull 20 foot 3400 lb boat to and from launch (1.5 blocks from the house) 4 months out of the year.
1% pull snowmobile trailer (24 foot enclosed haulmark at about 4300 lbe loaded) 2 to 3 months out of the year.
3% pull camper
3% no pulling just commuting.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by buzzcop63

I think you are making a very good point. All trailer dealers are not alike, sitting in 1/2 ton rated Cougar TT, 30RKSWE, GVWR of 8,200Lb (34'4" long) at Curtis Trailer in Aloha Oregon I was shooting the breeze with a salesman and I offer that my tow vehicle of choice would be a 1/2 ton truck due to its comfort in around town driving, cost and MPG. The salesman looks at me and shakes his head, he did not say no but it was obvious that my choice would not be wise. Your experience speaks for itself, many 1/2-ton trucks could tow that trailer but with that length and the truck being so light and its wheelbase, it would be a white-knuckle drive.

In my previous posts I have always used the guide lines expressed in numerous books on towing and years of reading Trailer life, Guide to Towing published each year, etc. But I do not recall a formula that relates to the length of the trailer to the wheelbase and weight of the TV?

Guess all dealers don't sell at any cost!
I had a coworker/friend purchase a used TT from Curtis, it was about 30' long, he had a F250 crew cab long bed, they required that he have a WD hitch with sway control before being allowed to tow the TT off the lot!
I spend a fare amount of my RV dollars in their parts department, as they are helpful and very friendly.

Originally Posted by Essness

I find these threads interesting. I pull with a 1/2 ton truck and I'm real close to my limit. I own a half ton on purpose. I drive it for work and need to shuttle 3 to 4 adults to and from lunch as well as pull the camper on the weekends. 90% of the time I drive the truck its a lunch shuttle and ride quality is important. The other 10% of the time breaks down as follows,
2% pull 20 foot 3400 lb boat to and from launch (1.5 blocks from the house) 4 months out of the year.
1% pull snowmobile trailer (24 foot enclosed haulmark at about 4300 lbe loaded) 2 to 3 months out of the year.
3% pull camper
3% no pulling just commuting.

Well I drive a 2500 to tow my 33' 5er for the reason I drive many two lane highways with steep hills and many turns, no shoulders with big big drop offs. I will pass on a Cadillac ride for a solid feeling and ZERO White Knuckle experience, I may only tow less than 5% of the time, but that 5% is the most important!!

[RockyMtnHi2]

With the amount of knowledge that is both learned and earned in this group of caring and contributing members, wouldn't it be a great service to put together an advisory document that lists the things to be considered when choosing a tow vehicle/RV combination?

I certainly don't have the experience with the technical aspects, but I'd volunteer to organize and edit.

Anyone else think this would be worth the time and effort?

[Jca3]

Totally agree Festus. We had a super lite 26RB Jayco and pulled it will a 1500. That poor truck really had to work in our mountainous terrain.
Now that we have the 2500 diesel to pull our 266RL we are so happy. Not having to listen to that labored gear shifting wondering when the whole thing was going to blow up. We found our 05 Chevy 3 years ago with 36,000 miles and after the test drive knew we had to have it. The original owner had purchased every upgrade they had at the time. I wouldn't want to have to pay full price for the new ones.
Sometimes we forget the Laredo is back there. Hmm not a good thing, but that doesn't last long. My hubby is always checking the back end.

[buzzcop63]

Russ:
Over the 6 years of looking before buying my first RV I had visited Curtis in Aloha many, many times and spent hours talking to their sales people. I also was told that when they sell a trailer they would not let it off the lot if the TV does not meet safe requirements to tow. Curtis set up my trailer and truck with a WDH and Anti Sway bar. Note; I purchased truck after trailer. If you take the time to talk to sales people, telling them you do not own a TV as yet, you have a good chance of learning a great deal. Many of the salesmen I have talked to are avid RV owners and have been for many years and have a great deal of experience. No white knuckles and love the truck and trailer.

[GMcKenzie]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Well I drive a 2500 to tow my 33' 5er for the reason I drive many two lane highways with steep hills and many turns, no shoulders with big big drop offs. I will pass on a Cadillac ride for a solid feeling and ZERO White Knuckle experience, I may only tow less than 5% of the time, but that 5% is the most important!!

I'm the same way. Might feel okay towing with one of the newer 1/2 tons if I lived in the Prairies, but towing the mountains in BC, I want to have more leeway. Capacity of 12K towing 8K just works for me.

[GACamper]

Originally Posted by Festus2

I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite often we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often".

The thread continues with replies from various members who might say:
1) You are way too heavy. That TT is too much for your TV. Look at a bigger truck.
2) No problem. You'll be just fine. Go camping and enjoy.
3) I've towed my TT all over the US without a problem. "We've got the same setup. You're ok".
4) And then there is my favorite ......."Mmmmm...not sure but I think should be ok if you watch what you take, don't go into the mountains, drive slowly and stay close to home."

I read the post and the replies and ask myself.....
Why would a person buy an RV and a truck and put all these restrictions and limitations on themselves? Why would a person think that if they do, it will make it safer for themselves and for others. Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

HOLY CRAP! This was ALMOST me!!!!

I'm looking into buying our first TT. Not known diddly from squat about nothing, I asked a lot of questions on this forum, and BOY AM I GLAD I DID!!!

My current TV is a 2008, Toyota Sequoia Limited. Before this forum I thought that if my truck says it can tow 10K lbs, and my trailer is under that, then I'm good... OR SO I THOUGHT. I now know better! I could have KILLED my wife and kids!!!

I'm looking into trading my Sequoia for a diesel Excursion now.... Still trying to investigate if the Excursion is going to be enough to haul my (soon to be mine) Sprinter 316BIK (at least thats the TT we want).

Good post, BTW! That explained my dumb-butt almost to a "T". Glad Im smart enough to research before I buy! lol

- Doug

[ktmracer]

Originally Posted by buzzcop63

Russ:
Over the 6 years of looking before buying my first RV I had visited Curtis in Aloha many, many times and spent hours talking to their sales people. I also was told that when they sell a trailer they would not let it off the lot if the TV does not meet safe requirements to tow. Curtis set up my trailer and truck with a WDH and Anti Sway bar. Note; I purchased truck after trailer. If you take the time to talk to sales people, telling them you do not own a TV as yet, you have a good chance of learning a great deal. Many of the salesmen I have talked to are avid RV owners and have been for many years and have a great deal of experience. No white knuckles and love the truck and trailer.

My experience with Curtis has been very similar. When I started looking at a Outback 295RE, the FIRST thing the salesman asked was "What is your tow vehicle" and they sales document required me to state what the intended tow vehicle would be. (Silverado 2500HD)

So, I agree, not all dealers will say "O sure you can tow that!".

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by Festus2

I'm probably opening up another can of towing worms but what the heck.....

Let me give you a theoretical example:

Quite ofTheten we hear from a member who is in the midst of buying or has already bought a new RV and asks, "Will I be able to tow my new Laredo 301RE or some other TT with my F150 or whatever other truck".

Further on in his post, he goes on to list one or more of the following conditions under which he will be towing his Laredo:
1) We won't be carrying much stuff - a bit of water and minimum supplies -"We'll be travelling light".
2) We will be driving over mainly flat roads, no major hills or climbs. "It's all flat."
3) We won't be going fast. "I'll be driving slowly".
4) We won't be going far. "The campground is only 75 miles away".
5) We only go on holidays 3 times a year. "We won't be on the highways that often".

The thread continues with replies from various members who might say:
1) You are way too heavy. That TT is too much for your TV. Look at a bigger truck.
2) No problem. You'll be just fine. Go camping and enjoy.
3) I've towed my TT all over the US without a problem. "We've got the same setup. You're ok".
4) And then there is my favorite ......."Mmmmm...not sure but I think should be ok if you watch what you take, don't go into the mountains, drive slowly and stay close to home."

I read the post and the replies and ask myself.....
Why would a person buy an RV and a truck and put all these restrictions and limitations on themselves? Why would a person think that if they do, it will make it safer for themselves and for others. Isn't being beyond your payload and towing capacity unsafe under any and all conditions? What difference does it make if you go 30, 300 or 3000 miles? 55 mph or 65 mph? Unsafe is unsafe no matter how you spin it.

I am also wondering if, at times, we sometimes do a member who is close to or over the payload a disservice by telling him that it will be ok for you IF you do this or don't do that. By doing so, all we are doing is reinforcing the misconception that it is safe for him to venture out providing he meets these conditions and stays within the boundaries you have given him or that he has mistakenly set for himself.

Surely, unsafe is unsafe --under any conditions.

I certainly did not forget all the hard time given to me by quite a few people, including friends and family members while we considered using our existing ML for towing. But it was not a bad time, they actually forced me to study and read more and embrace logical and holistic approach to towing and became a better driver.
A year and several thousand miles later I can go through the above 5 point checklist.
1. Although there are only three of us, we carry more stuff and clothes than we really need, including bigger and better toys, electric piano, screen tent, tire inflator/ engine starter..... And we never run out of fresh water on the way to the campground and back.
2.We drove mostly over flats, Florida is 400 miles long, but we were climbing 5-6% grades on the interstates (55-60 mph, 4th gear, 4000rpms). The truck struggled no more than an airplane during takeoff, and it sounded beautifully through double tailpipes.
Off the interstates there were even steeper grades, but they were never a problem due yo much lower speed. And 10700 lb combo is not accelerating downhill that easily BTW, is really about weigh vs wind resistance plus engine breaking.
3. On the flats we usually stayed within 62-67 mph, did not feel any worse than people with HD trucks and fivers. Were passed by big rigs and passed many of them.
4. The trips ranged from 45 to 1370 miles one way.
5. We had 90 days of camping over a year totally, although I had to leave for a work and come back several times.
We still have more than 400 lb of spare payload.
I certainly agree that good (bad) 30 miles predict good(bad) 3000 miles but everyone needs to start from short trips on order to get skills and confidence.
Now, after a few smooth and comfortable trips my DW wants to start driving with trailer after initial apprehension, so I can watch some movies in the back seat. An offer, which is difficult to refuse.....

[Festus2]

RGene7001 -

And you can do all of those things because you have a TV and a TT which are a safe combination and do not have or require any self-imposed restrictions. My point was that some people do not have a safe set up and therefore place limitations on what they can do thinking that, by doing so, it will somehow makes things "safe".

The 5 points were merely set out as examples of some the reasons some folks use to say, "I'll be okay as long as I ....."

[TomHaycraft]

Wow, how did I miss this thread this year? Six pages worth of posts, could not get through all of them this morning. Nothing better to stir a discussion on an RV forum.

One item, didn't run across, but was the topic of standard tow ratings (J2807) brought up? The big-3 (now 4, with Toyota) inflate their stats for marketing purposes. We start off with questionable capacities and ratings that don't likely translate from one company to another.

For me, my truck came first, didn't think I'd be in a position to buy a trailer this soon. I did my research, while at GAWR rear, am only at 80% of tow rating when packed to the gills. I have found my limitations, 10% grade isn't pretty, glad when I find them, they aren't too long here in Texas! No, it isn't in the cards for me to drive over Wolf Creek Pass, or Slumgullion, or Trail Ridge Road. But dang, there are more miles that I can drive, that I will never have the time or money to cover.

My glass is 1/2 full. I see many posts from folks who have the outlook of being 1/2 empty ("why buy and have these limitations?"). I'm out camping once a month, 12 months out of the year. Hooking up tonight, heading for the Piney Woods of East Texas tomorrow morning. I'll be eastbound on Hwy 79 at first light!

[Jazz38]

Festus and Javi are spot on. Make all the excuses you can come up with, but these two guys are telling it to you straight. " You don't get to be an old fart by being stupid"

[zuley]

Too many rely on what their supposedly honest salesmen tell them to be the truth. Let me ask the group this... Have any of you ever had a salesman tell you that your TV is not big or strong enough for that TT? For the most part these guys do not give a rats *** about you once you pull away from their lot. I know it is up to the buyer to do the due diligence and research to know prior to signing their name that what they have a safe combination truck and trailer. I myself, ended up spending a whole bunch more money after buying my TT to purchase a truck because I felt after the fact I was not safe. We had looked a numerous trailers and every salesman told us we would be good to go with our TV. Incidentally, we purchased the smallest of all the TT's we looked at. I had some jack *** tell me I could pull a 6800 pound dry 28 foot TT with my Grand Cherokee. To top it off, he got pissy with me when I called him on it.
All I'm trying to say here is that too many people, myself included, rely on what is told to them by their salesman to be gospel. It was through this forum that I was shown how to actually determine and calculate a safe tow load.

[allmi01]

This is a great, however long thread. Great work to all who have contributed.

Let me add one more thing. The tow rating of a TV is determined by a combination of pwer train HP / torque (and all fo them use this to over inflate the numbers), braking capacity, frame strength, GAWR, and suspension.

Changing the brake, springs, shocks, adding air bags, changing tires, etc will not change the GVWR / GCWR. Everyone who stated DOT goes by the door sticker is correct.

And yes, I'm one of those accidents waiting to happen towing my 36' Couguar with a 10k GVWR with my Excursion. I'm well under the GCWR, bit over GVWR on the Excursion. THis truck weighs in at 8000 with a 200 lb driver and a full tank of diesel. Add 1500 lbs for tongue weight and a technical overload exists. (9300 - 8000 curb weight = 1300 capacity). I use the max GWVR always. It is safer to assume you are at the max. If you weigh in less, all good.

The overload condition is why I purchased the F350 CC dually. When it is back in service, it will be the TV!

As to flat lands vs. mountains, I towed my previous TT (04 Sprinter 303BHS with a 10K GVWR) with the Excursion pretty much from coast to coast. When I am in the mountains, I use the semi truck rule. go wup th egrade in the same gear you wan tot come down in. I have a monitor to look at EGT's (exhaust gas temps) and kept them under 1250 and kept engine coolant temp under 230. I didn't stress the power train up ill or down. Yes I went up 6 to 8 % grades between 35 and 45 and came down the same speeds. Safety and not white knuckles for me or the DW. Speed kills. We own RV's to enjoy the outdoors, The trip should be a part of that. I drive in the 58 to 63 MPH range. easier on the rig and my nerves. Enjoy the dirve as well as the destination.

Maybe I'm gettting old, but to quote an old Roman, Rashness is the sing of youth, prudence that of mellowed age and dicression is the better part of valor. I'd rather arrive later than not arrive at all.

Mike

[TomHaycraft]

Originally Posted by zuley

Too many rely on what their supposedly honest salesmen tell them to be the truth. Let me ask the group this... Have any of you ever had a salesman tell you that your TV is not big or strong enough for that TT?

Wasn't the salesman, or the sales manager, but a guy behind the parts counter. The sales folks I dealt with, did not want to talk about the gravitational force (aka payload capacity) or horizontal force to pull or stop the trailer. I knew what I had read, but with no experience with these size trailers. I was leery, was talking to the parts guy about hitch options and his voice of experience spoke. Did I mention I was at Crestview RV in Georgetown, TX?

I found the trailer in Abilene, 210 miles away. Four round trips, first to see it and confirm it was what I wanted, 2nd to pick it up, 3rd to drop it off for some warranty work on the nose, 4th to retrieve it. I got to know the road well. Franklin's Big Country RV Outlet in Abilene, great people, would purchase from them again in a heart beat.

[thekid]

Well said!!

[rough rider]

My wife and I recently purchased a Raptor 384, our tow vehicle is a 2011 Ram 3500 dually. When we asked the factory rep if this set up would work his response was to check the tow vehicle guide. So far Keystone was the only company that gave this respone and it is much appreciated. When speaking to individual rv outlets and other competitors of Keystone Raptor the answer was sure a 1 ton is fine.We all know that the big three 1 tons are all capable depending on configuration. Of course it would be nice to have an MTD or a Prevost but most of us have a budget we have to live with.

[fla-gypsy]

I have 30 years experience in Industrial safety management and my training and experience tell me that exceeding any of the maximum established ratings of the manufacturer are by definition unsafe.

Exceeding any of the ratings is in my opinion an unacceptable risk. Will your truck self destruct if you go 1 lb over? No, but how much will it take for a serious component to fail and result in a crash. I would never want that to happen to anyone. My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it.

My experience in regulatory/industrial safety compliance, accident investigation, hazard recognition and consequence awareness makes any unnecessary risk simply unacceptable to me. All risk can never be eliminated, why accept those that can? Always consider what can happen, and what your families safety is worth to you?

[RGene7001]

Originally Posted by fla-gypsy

I have 30 years experience in Industrial safety management and my training and experience tell me that exceeding any of the maximum established ratings of the manufacturer are by definition unsafe.

Exceeding any of the ratings is in my opinion an unacceptable risk. Will your truck self destruct if you go 1 lb over? No, but how much will it take for a serious component to fail and result in a crash. I would never want that to happen to anyone. My view may be ridiculed by some as the thread develops but I will not get involved in arguments over it.

My experience in regulatory/industrial safety compliance, accident investigation, hazard recognition and consequence awareness makes any unnecessary risk simply unacceptable to me. All risk can never be eliminated, why accept those that can? Always consider what can happen, and what your families safety is worth to you?

Fla-gypsy,
let me ask you a couple of stupid questions:
1. We may argue about this and many other things but it is generally accepted that Europeans are much more stringent on their approach to safety and standardization than Americans. My Mercedes E550 is rated to tow 4600 lb in Europe and zero pounds here. Does it make sense to you?
2. If someone attaches a jetski or rental Uhaul trailer behind E550 or similar vehicle via appropriately rated and professionally installed hitch, would you consider this person a public menace putting his family and general public at unacceptable risk?

And one less stupid question:
According to Wikipedia and other sources, a motorcycle rider risks his life 20-30 times more compared to a car driver. Are you aware about similar studies and risk odds related to trailer towing and RVing compared to driving solo?
Thank you.