Tail wagging the dog example

[B-O-B'03]

I am sure the airbag under there were just for show

-Brian

[Bolo4u]

First, thankfully this collision resulted in only minor, if any, injuries to the involved parties.

I’m going to offer some of the things that come to mind for me, after watching the video. What I’m sharing is NOT an ANY way a condemnation of the driver, or anything he did or did not do. Nor am I intending this as a means of generating a “weight police” debate; rather just offering what I think might have been contributing factors, and these are strictly my own observations.
Disclaimer: I work for an enforcement agency, and have a lot of experience in investigating/documenting collisions, but I was NOT, in any way, involved in this incident.

The 5r being towed has a rough shipping weight of 14,800 pounds and a GVWR of 17000 pounds. Given this info, the dry pin weight is somewhere in the 3200 range and if loaded to the 17000 weight, the pin weight is in the 3700 range. Most likely the available dry cargo weight of the TV is in the 2000 pound range, so you can do the math. With that said, based on the drivers own admission (apparently he made a comment on the YouTube page admitting to traveling at 40 MPH and entering the intersection due to the light changing) any minor amount of steering input with a heavy weight pushing him, coupled with the side deviation of another vehicle colliding, would send him further sideways. Assuming the trailer braking wasn’t properly adjusted, the trailer may not have had enough braking force to help slow the momentum of the trailer had he applied the brakes. It looks like the hitch was properly installed and connected, but separated due to the stresses.

Its difficult to tell, but I wonder if/how much the raised center median may have played a role in helping trip the TV onto its side, vs. sliding on the pavement.

I think I located the intersection on Google Earth, and if it is the same one where the collision occurred, there is PLENTY of advance warning (about a ¼ mile for each roadway approaching the intersection) warning of the stoplight and cross-road ahead, and good sight-distance and visibility.

Side note: Regardless of the actual weight of the 5r, since it’s GVWR is over 15000, any California licensed driver towing this 5r is obligated to have at minimum a non-commercial class B license, which involves more testing, including a skills test and medical paperwork, to “legally” tow the vehicle. I have no idea whether or not the driver met these requirements, as this is just an FYI. While this is in no way a physical factor in the collision happening vs. not, it is still an administrative violation. Unfortunately, a lot of drivers either unknowingly or willfully fail to get properly licensed.

Thankfully, this was only an expensive, (vs. painful) lesson to help understand what the driver and his family can hopefully do in the future to possibly avoid a repeat of this type of incident.

Again this is just my personal take-away. Comment or discuss at will.

[jsmith948]

Originally Posted by Bolo4u

First, thankfully this collision resulted in only minor, if any, injuries to the involved parties.

I’m going to offer some of the things that come to mind for me, after watching the video. What I’m sharing is NOT an ANY way a condemnation of the driver, or anything he did or did not do. Nor am I intending this as a means of generating a “weight police” debate; rather just offering what I think might have been contributing factors, and these are strictly my own observations.
Disclaimer: I work for an enforcement agency, and have a lot of experience in investigating/documenting collisions, but I was NOT, in any way, involved in this incident.

The 5r being towed has a rough shipping weight of 14,800 pounds and a GVWR of 17000 pounds. Given this info, the dry pin weight is somewhere in the 3200 range and if loaded to the 17000 weight, the pin weight is in the 3700 range. Most likely the available dry cargo weight of the TV is in the 2000 pound range, so you can do the math. With that said, based on the drivers own admission (apparently he made a comment on the YouTube page admitting to traveling at 40 MPH and entering the intersection due to the light changing) any minor amount of steering input with a heavy weight pushing him, coupled with the side deviation of another vehicle colliding, would send him further sideways. Assuming the trailer braking wasn’t properly adjusted, the trailer may not have had enough braking force to help slow the momentum of the trailer had he applied the brakes. It looks like the hitch was properly installed and connected, but separated due to the stresses.

Its difficult to tell, but I wonder if/how much the raised center median may have played a role in helping trip the TV onto its side, vs. sliding on the pavement.

I think I located the intersection on Google Earth, and if it is the same one where the collision occurred, there is PLENTY of advance warning (about a ¼ mile for each roadway approaching the intersection) warning of the stoplight and cross-road ahead, and good sight-distance and visibility.

Side note: Regardless of the actual weight of the 5r, since it’s GVWR is over 15000, any California licensed driver towing this 5r is obligated to have at minimum a non-commercial class B license, which involves more testing, including a skills test and medical paperwork, to “legally” tow the vehicle. I have no idea whether or not the driver met these requirements, as this is just an FYI. While this is in no way a physical factor in the collision happening vs. not, it is still an administrative violation. Unfortunately, a lot of drivers either unknowingly or willfully fail to get properly licensed.

Thankfully, this was only an expensive, (vs. painful) lesson to help understand what the driver and his family can hopefully do in the future to possibly avoid a repeat of this type of incident.

Again this is just my personal take-away. Comment or discuss at will.

I agree with your supposition that the raised median curb contributed to the truck having rolled over as opposed to sliding sideways. I think the jacked up suspension played a roll as well.
As to the hitch separating from the truck, I have seen that happen in 18 wheeler wrecks. To those who don't trust a fifth wheel hitch, you noticed that the hitch was still locked around the king pin. Just sayin.

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

[Freeheel4life]

Don't know if yall have seen this one but is sure is pretty wild. Certainly another tail wags the dog example. For those with an aversion to 4 letter word I suggest the mute button.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siVH_cr5ZnE

really starts at about 45 seconds in

[Hodgy]

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It was really nice of those other drivers to stop and see if they could help !





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[Number 4]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I can't count the number of new members who have joined the forum, asked the question, "Can my truck tow ...?" and been told, "No, your truck is too light for that trailer." or "No, that trailer is too big for your truck.", only to respond with, "But my salesman told me...." or "My buddy has a friend with the same trailer and ..."

Typically, about half of those members choose to believe the salesman who is telling them it's OK (and they want to believe him because they want the equipment)... We have no followup from those who leave the forum after getting the answers to their question, but of those who do choose to believe the salesman and who remain active on the forum, typically, most will have a new tow vehicle within a year....

It's much the same as the toddler who won't believe mom when she says the oven is hot. It's only after that toddler touches a hot oven door that they understand (and believe) they can get burned. and grasp the concept of "hot". It's much the same with the concept of "too heavy" .....

And I'm here to say thanks to all those who offered helpful advice on my "Will this work" post as a new member thinking a half ton truck might do the job. As a result we will be SAFELY towing with an F-250 and in order to avoid the weakest link in the chain scenario I've ordered a WD hitch with 1,000lb capacity instead of the 750lb version currently in the garage. It was just too close for comfort in that department too.

[Pull Toy]

GOOD JOB!!!

Enjoy the new rig, and happy, safe camping!

[Hodgy]

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YouTube led me astray, here is one from down under.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_mYqCaaBdU

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[notanlines]

Hodgy, all that wouldn't have happened if he hadn't been driving on the wrong side of the road.

[Hodgy]

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I had another look at the video. That Aussie trailer has the axle dead centre. That alone pre-disposes it to act the way it did.

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[Tinner12002]

Originally Posted by Freeheel4life

Don't know if yall have seen this one but is sure is pretty wild. Certainly another tail wags the dog example. For those with an aversion to 4 letter word I suggest the mute button.

really starts at about 45 seconds in

Looked like he had his air brakes on at least on the passenger side...not having them out on drivers side probably caused the accident! Lol!

[Tinner12002]

It didn't look as though either one was trying to slow down...must have thought if they go faster it will straighten out...lol.

[Hodgy]

Originally Posted by Tinner12002

It didn't look as though either one was trying to slow down...must have thought if they go faster it will straighten out...lol.

Motorcycle riders trying to pull out of a speed wobble !


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[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Freeheel4life

Don't know if yall have seen this one but is sure is pretty wild. Certainly another tail wags the dog example. For those with an aversion to 4 letter word I suggest the mute button.

really starts at about 45 seconds in

Here is a link to a discussion of this on RV.net, in which the driver of the crashed rig explains his side of what happened.
The crash happened on I82 south of Ellensburg, WA

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...pging/1/page/1

[Hodgy]

Originally Posted by rhagfo

Here is a link to a discussion of this on RV.net, in which the driver of the crashed rig explains his side of what happened.
The crash happened on I82 south of Ellensburg, WA

https://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/f...pging/1/page/1

That was a good read.

I am far from anything approaching a expert but that looks very much like to much TT and not enough TV.

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[captcolour]

Originally Posted by Hodgy

That was a good read.

I am far from anything approaching a expert but that looks very much like to much TT and not enough TV.

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Agree. When we were first shopping for a TT, I had my 2016 F-150 as my TV. Didn't take long to get above 30' on a TT to get close to the payload capability of the 1/2 ton pick-up let alone a SUV. When we were looking at 35'+, definitely knew I'd have to get a 3/4 ton. I had two Ford Expedition EL's which are essentially the same as the Excursion. I would not have towed anything more than a pop-up with them.

[chuckster57]

Thank you for posting the link. Goes to show, things can go to crap faster than you can think. I’m glad to read that no one was injured.

[Javi]

Bottom line... the folks in these videos and others like them made decisions that resulted in accidents.. Nearly every one of these accidents (if not all) could have been avoided with a little forethought and better decisions...

Like my old pappy used to say... Life is a series of tests... sometimes you pass... and sometimes you fail... try not to get written up in the papers for your failures...

[Freeheel4life]

Thanks for posting drivers response. Lots of information for sure.

[sourdough]

Thanks for the link. The driver had lots of "explanations" which I call excuses. Some thoughts;

His truck was rated for max tow of 10k. Trailer gvw was 11k. He was towing at the max or over of his vehicle.

An Excursion is NOT an ideal tow vehicle IMO.

The truck driver said he was driving 65mph. Listen to his engine as he's driving and the Excursion passes; his truck is not working and I suspect he's telling the truth. Everything else he did, including helping the passengers, is above reproach.

If the truck was at 65mph the Excursion was driving WAY too fast for that combo. That alone would contribute to the accident.

So much for an Andersen controlling sway.

Bottom line; the driver is 100% responsible for the accident and he knows it. There are no other contributing factors. If driven responsibly this accident would have never happened. Thankfully the children weren't hurt by his negligence.

Lastly, but for the grace of God, there go I. I hope and pray I'm never in that position.