A caution from trailer life

[JRTJH]

In the new issue of Trailer Life, in the RV RESOLUTIONS section (the "hey help me" part of the magazine) there is a request from a Keystone owner (Avalanche) asking TL to intervene on his behalf because of a denial by Keystone to repair a crack in the forward section of his fifth wheel FILON skin. Apparently the installation of a "trailer hitch" on the back of his fifth wheel came up and caused Keystone to deny the repairs. The owner stated that the hitch had "never held anything but a bicycle rack and one bike" and he couldn't understand how that could cause a crack in the side wall 25' away...

After the responses (Keystone did repair his trailer) TL editors made the following note:

"Before mounting a bike rack on your RV, make sure the manufacturer has approved doing so for your model. Many RVs, particularly lightweight trailers, are not designed to handle the additional weight and stress of transporting bicycles. Trailer Life has received a number of letters from readers who have installed bike racks, only to find out later that the owner's manual forbids it and the manufacturer may not honor the terms of the warranty because of it."

So, it seems that as trailers become lighter (and subsequently less durable), TL is getting complaints from owners of lightweight trailers from various manufacturers, many (all??) of which are beginning to refuse warranty repair for damage that could be attributed to a "hitch installation for a bike rack".....

This is the "warranty exclusion" as printed in the Keystone Owner's Manual: "• Damage or loss caused in whole or in part by the unauthorized attachments, modifications or alterations to the structure, body, pin box, or frame of the recreational vehicle including but not limited to trailer hitches for towing, or platforms for supporting cargo;"

Over the past few years, we've had several members acknowledge that they bought their trailer, in part, because they could get a bigger trailer with less weight as opposed to other trailers they were considering. So, reducing weight is attractive as a buying point, but the limitations that go along with the reduction in weight should also be considered. Many times, from letters "after the purchase" in the "Modifications and Upgrades" section of the forum, those same members are asking, "How do I transport bicycles on my bumper?" They aren't happy with the answers telling them, "You can't install a bike rack on your bumper or even install a hitch."

It seems reasonable (to me) that a 37' trailer that weighs 5900 pounds wouldn't be as "versatile or as durable" as a 32' trailer that weighs 9400 pounds. Both are "functional travel trailers" but in all probability, one will "survive that rigors of travel on a gravel road and the potholes" (with bikes on the bumper) longer than the other.

As trailers get longer and lighter, it becomes even more critical to accept that there's a "trade-off" in strength/durability that goes along with the reduction in weight. I'm beginning to think that the "aged advice" of "wait until after the warranty before adding a hitch" may not be "sound advice".... With the "TL identified increase in complaints" even after the warranty there's just not enough strength in frames on many lightweight trailers to support the added stress of a hitch, even for one bicycle.....

[BirchyBoy]

Thanks for posting this. It's good information for those of us that go with light weight trailers and also want to add things to the far end where there is lots of bounce.

[chuckster57]

Adding a receiver is a very common request where I work. We instruct the customer to consult the owners manual, and if they still want one to find a local welding shop to attach it to the frame. We won't install them.

[sw342]

Keystone denying warranty at its best. If the lightweight rear frame was bent or the back wall was sagging because of the extra weight from having the bike rack attached, I could see denial of warranty. But something that happens at the front of the trailer? Makes zero sense. Its like these guys that run programmers and make engine mods on their diesel trucks. They can get their powertrain warranty denied, but pretty tough to blame the engine mods on a faulty electric seat or paint that is falling off the truck.

Somewhere common sense has to come into play. Keystone tries to have an out for practically every situation.

[CWSWine]

Lippert that makes the frames has a series of hitches approved for their frames and if you call them they will inform you if you can safely install one. Here is the webpage on Lippert site.

http://store.lci1.com/products/stora...acks-receivers

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by sw342

Keystone denying warranty at its best. If the lightweight rear frame was bent or the back wall was sagging because of the extra weight from having the bike rack attached, I could see denial of warranty. But something that happens at the front of the trailer? Makes zero sense. Its like these guys that run programmers and make engine mods on their diesel trucks. They can get their powertrain warranty denied, but pretty tough to blame the engine mods on a faulty electric seat or paint that is falling off the truck.

Somewhere common sense has to come into play. Keystone tries to have an out for practically every situation.

Have you by any chance considered that a travel trailer is like a "teeter totter" in that the wheels are the fulcrum and what's bouncing on the back does affect the parts on the opposite end? Connect the "front" to a tow vehicle so it can't bounce when the back does and you set up a "perfect storm" for damage caused by flexing rather than "teetering"....

People tend to think, "Why can't they build it the way I like it" rather than thinking: "I'm buying a specific product, will it meet my needs?" Not every RV is designed to do every job. When a buyer doesn't consider the limitations, they tend to get into trouble. It's really too bad that so many "want to blame the manufacturer" rather than "understand the limitations"....

Don't blame Keystone for the damage "in front of the axles caused by overloading behind the axles"......

[dcg9381]

Originally Posted by sw342

Keystone tries to have an out for practically every situation.

In this case, Keystone has all the $$ and can deny at their leisure.
However, assuming the consumer didn't actually put any load on that hitch and a crack up front isn't related - the consumer is explicitly protected:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus...s_Warranty_Act

Basically, aftermarket "modifications" do not inherently void factory warranties, unless that part can be shown to be the root cause of the problem. It'd be on Keystone to show that the hitch caused the problem....

If the consumer did load that hitch, then I understand Keystone's response... However, I think we've seen a few RVs cracking that (on this forum) - big toy haulers that were not associated with a trailer hitch.

[Ken / Claudia]

I read that also and guessed the outcome would have been different from reading all whose on here who post about Keystone refusing repairs. Since we are all RVers on here, at times traveling highways. I think your blind if you have not been behind any RV with stuff mounted to the rear bumper and watched that stuff bounce on some of them like a crazy. Even some with just spare tires. Recently I followed a large 5er unknown make maybe 8-10 miles on the interstate with several bikes hanging on a mounted bumper rack. They were connected great as no bounce was seen, which is not common. Nothing like the guy with firewood on that pull out bumper loosing some from the bounce and yes there was a crash involved as the little car run it over..

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by dcg9381

In this case, Keystone has all the $$ and can deny at their leisure.
However, assuming the consumer didn't actually put any load on that hitch and a crack up front isn't related - the consumer is explicitly protected:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnus...s_Warranty_Act

Basically, aftermarket "modifications" do not inherently void factory warranties, unless that part can be shown to be the root cause of the problem. It'd be on Keystone to show that the hitch caused the problem....

If the consumer did load that hitch, then I understand Keystone's response... However, I think we've seen a few RVs cracking that (on this forum) - big toy haulers that were not associated with a trailer hitch.

The crack that was referenced in the Trailer Life letter was very similar to the ones described by a couple of people on this forum. It was in the lower corner of the bedroom slide in the FILON skin. The trailer in question was an Avalanche fifth wheel, clearly not a "lightweight or ultralight" trailer. In fact, I thought (still do) that the letter was written by one of our members, but I don't have any verification of that. Fortunately, once the dealership got "into the trailer" they found some cracked welds in the aluminum structure and with that information, Keystone authorized the "out of warranty" repair.

My only reason for even posting about this issue was to give the membership a "heads up" on possible problems with damage that they may not consider to be a part of something as "innocent" as installing a bike rack on the rear of their trailer. I'm not "taking sides" or "defending Keystone" or "attempting to justify some controversial decisions"... My purpose was (is) to simply state that TL published a statement that "many RV manufacturers (not just Keystone) have recently started denying payment for warranty repairs on trailers where owners have installed bike racks/hitches which can be attributed to damage, particularly in "lightweight trailers which aren't designed for that type of load" (many of which use the same Lippert frame that is used by Keystone).

[nellie1289]

So my 336bhs actually has a slide out bike rack and spare tire mounted to that. The thing is so freaking low to the ground it is basically worthless. I had to take the spare off and Put it underneath just so I wouldn't drag it around on even the tiniest of inclines. Like small entrances to parking lots off highways etc. I can't imagine putting bikes on it too and pulling it out making it even lower. It says it's rated for 200 lbs. the thing is so low to the ground it is worthless.

[dcg9381]

John,
I certainly appreciate the post and didn't think you were defending anyone...

[sourdough]

When I buy a trailer I buy it for all the amenities it has for ME and my family. It's not a utility trailer and, in my mind, was never meant to have hundreds of pounds hanging off the rear of it.

Think about it; the tires are made with the scantest of margins for the trailer that's on it; the walls are made from the thinnest, lightest materials that can be had; same goes for cabinets, woodwork etc. How in the world can anyone surmise that the frame is then made so robust that it will carry the trailer and its maximum allowed internal cargo, subjected to terrific bashing from terrible roads, high winds etc. along with the stress of a twisting, 13' high structure and still be "good to go" to add hundreds of pounds of tail wagging push, pull, twist to the rear of the frame? It's doesn't make sense.

Follow the manufacturers guidelines implicitly. I, like another poster, have seen folks tail wagging unbelievable stuff at the back of their trailer; disasters waiting to happen and no doubt would be the first in line to blame Keystone for their mistake. If you want to take stuff put it in the bed of the truck. Won't fit? Leave it at home and rent, or buy, it at the far end. JMO.

[chuckster57]

Just saw this today. Not a Keystone, but I bet their not far behind.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by chuckster57

Just saw this today. Not a Keystone, but I bet their not far behind.

To add to chuckster57's picture and to use the "recommended LCI website" from CWSWine's post: http://store.lci1.com/products/stora...acks-receivers

Lippert does address installations in the owner's manual for their "recommended bumper bike rack" and their "recommended frame mounted hitch" Here's what the LIPPERT OWNER'S MANUAL/INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS has to say about even their own products: http://www.lci1.com/assets/content/s...9;s-Manual.pdf has the following warning on page 2:

"Any aftermarket attachments by dealers or consumers to the bumper area will not be covered and will void the warranty of the bumper area. Please be advised that Lippert frames, bumpers, bike racks, and hitches are warranted for factory installed equipment by the RV Manufacturer only."

So, even if you order a "factory authorized bike/spare tire rack" from Lippert, neither Keystone or Lippert is "obligated" to repair any damages your installation may cause. Having the dealer install it is also prohibited.

As stated by sourdough, these lightweight trailers just aren't built to carry loads that they weren't specifically engineered to accommodate. Unfortunately, for many lightweight RV owners, that means "install stuff on your bumper at your own risk".....

[Festus2]

So where does this leave those of us who have the infamous pull-out "bike rack" and appeared - not so long ago - on many Cougars and other models? Since this rack was not an after-market product but installed at the factory, I am assuming that it would be "legal" provided the weight was kept at or under 200 pounds and that it was within the warranty period.

But many of us have learned not to assume anything and adhere to the "Buyer Beware" principle.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by Festus2

So where does this leave those of us who have the infamous pull-out "bike rack" and appeared - not so long ago - on many Cougars and other models? Since this rack was not an after-market product but installed at the factory, I am assuming that it would be "legal" provided the weight was kept at or under 200 pounds and that it was within the warranty period.

But many of us have learned not to assume anything and adhere to the "Buyer Beware" principle.

I have that pullout on my 2016 Cougar 303rls. The tech pulled it out during PDI and my wife liked the idea of bringing her bike along. I quashed the idea! It sticks out far enough to not take many driveway curbs. I would like to use it for her bike and a cooler with 8# of ice and some handy sodas but not going to.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

To add to chuckster57's picture and to use the "recommended LCI website" from CWSWine's post: http://store.lci1.com/products/stora...acks-receivers

Lippert does address installations in the owner's manual for their "recommended bumper bike rack" and their "recommended frame mounted hitch" Here's what the LIPPERT OWNER'S MANUAL/INSTALLATION INSTRUCTIONS has to say about even their own products: http://www.lci1.com/assets/content/s...9;s-Manual.pdf has the following warning on page 2:

"Any aftermarket attachments by dealers or consumers to the bumper area will not be covered and will void the warranty of the bumper area. Please be advised that Lippert frames, bumpers, bike racks, and hitches are warranted for factory installed equipment by the RV Manufacturer only."

So, even if you order a "factory authorized bike/spare tire rack" from Lippert, neither Keystone or Lippert is "obligated" to repair any damages your installation may cause. Having the dealer install it is also prohibited.

As stated by sourdough, these lightweight trailers just aren't built to carry loads that they weren't specifically engineered to accommodate. Unfortunately, for many lightweight RV owners, that means "install stuff on your bumper at your own risk".....

When I called about another 5er I owed about the rack your showing in the manual I was told that had to be installed by manufacture and could not be installed after market the Lippert Customer Support pointed me toward the light duty hitches made for just bike racks and said that one would be ok to install. My other 5er had a tire with steel rim and swing arm and grill on the bumper that weight 135 lbs total and my bike and racks weighted 95 lbs. The grill bounced up and down more than bikes ever did.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

When I called about another 5er I owed about the rack your showing in the manual I was told that had to be installed by manufacture and could not be installed after market the Lippert Customer Support pointed me toward the light duty hitches made for just bike racks and said that one would be ok to install.

I "think" this part in red is the "key"... You and Lippert were talking about "another fifth wheel" probably not about a lightweight or ultra-light frame. I'd almost bet that if you called about installing anything on the back of a Passport or Premier you'd get a different answer.

If you look at the "spare tire/bike rack" that's designed for bumper installation with the two U bolts, it also has an "upper standoff" that must be mounted to the framework of the trailer rear wall.

I'd urge anyone with a lightweight or ultra-light frame from Lippert to get anything they say is "OK to install" in writing. Otherwise, with Keystone's "customer service department" you'll be almost guaranteed to hit a road block...

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I "think" this part in red is the "key"... You and Lippert were talking about "another fifth wheel" probably not about a lightweight or ultra-light frame. I'd almost bet that if you called about installing anything on the back of a Passport or Premier you'd get a different answer.

If you look at the "spare tire/bike rack" that's designed for bumper installation with the two U bolts, it also has an "upper standoff" that must be mounted to the framework of the trailer rear wall.

I'd urge anyone with a lightweight or ultra-light frame from Lippert to get anything they say is "OK to install" in writing. Otherwise, with Keystone's "customer service department" you'll be almost guaranteed to hit a road block...

I know for a fact that Lippert told lot people that can't be done do to frames and bumpers with lightweight RVs but I always recommend call Lippert and the manufacturer before installing.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by CWSWine

I know for a fact that Lippert told lot people that can't be done do to frames and bumpers with lightweight RVs but I always recommend call Lippert and the manufacturer before installing.

I think we're both saying pretty much the same thing...