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Old 02-28-2016, 02:25 PM   #1
hdxbonez
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Cold weather propane use solution- Powerblanket

A couple of weeks ago, we were using our Cougar in temps that dropped as low as -23*. With a couple of auxiliary oil filled electric heaters, the camper stayed very comfortable. The only real downside, was that recently filled 30# propane bottles would stop flowing before they were halfway empty due to the extreme temps. I found these electric propane bottle warming blankets and installed them this weekend. Temperatures are much warmer, but what an improvement! I've been running for 2 days on a bottle that stopped working on the last trip. The bottles are warm to the touch, and there is added warmth in the compartments to benefit the regulators and valve. I think I'll pick up a couple of space blankets to cover the rest of the tanks to help hold more heat in. The compartment doors still shut ok, but the bottle retainers wont fasten. I'm parked semi permanently, so thats not an issue. Current draw is only an amp each, and if they save me a few trips to the propane filling station, they'll pay for themselves eventually.

http://shop.powerblanket.com/product...FU4YHwodIuoBbw

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Old 02-28-2016, 05:07 PM   #2
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Thanks for the post. Didn't know about these (wish I had years ago when I was having much the same issue as you've had).
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:19 PM   #3
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Interesting that the bottles stopped supplying gas at half way empty. Yes, you did do the "fix" of heating the "tanks", but for a different reason. I would bet that your "tanks" were 50% propane and 50% butane. Butane has a boiling point of 30F (-1C), so the propane boiled off to provide gas (and heat) but the butane stayed behind. If the temp had gone down to -44F (-43C), you would have no propane either! Remember that if you head off to Calgary in January! The real reason you had "gas problems" is that whoever filled your tanks last actually filled them with a 50-50 mix of butane-propane. I have noticed that people who try to use Blue Rhino, etc., try to heat their RVs. These "pre-filled" tanks seemed to be filled with more of a heavy butane mix during the winter. Probably because they only fill a 20 pound tank with 15 pounds anyway, then with half that being butane, one will "run out" of gas with 7 pounds left in tank if below freezing. Last month, when we were in Pagosa Springs, CO, another Texan came in with a Passport with Blue Rhino tanks, and had no heat when the temperatures hit -15F at night! Tanks weighed in correctly, but had no gas. Yup . . . butane. He sure could have used your blankets!

I've told this story before on the Forum, but I'll relay it again. When a very young child, my folks and I moved to far northwestern Oklahoma. We lived in a stucco house with a sheet metal roof. My dad didn't know anything about propane/butane. He didn't have the tank filled in the fall. By the first freeze, we had no heat! Mom was mad! Our neighbor came to the rescue. A big armful of firewood and charcoal lighter. He built a fire at one end of the "butane tank". Suddenly we had heat in the furnace! Yup, building a small fire at one end of the tank heated the butane enough to provide gas for the house. Ah, certainly made us nervous! But by the next morning, the propane/butane company was out filling our tank with propane!

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Old 03-08-2016, 04:57 AM   #4
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Interesting that the bottles stopped supplying gas at half way empty. Yes, you did do the "fix" of heating the "tanks", but for a different reason. I would bet that your "tanks" were 50% propane and 50% butane. Butane has a boiling point of 30F (-1C), so the propane boiled off to provide gas (and heat) but the butane stayed behind. If the temp had gone down to -44F (-43C), you would have no propane either! Remember that if you head off to Calgary in January! The real reason you had "gas problems" is that whoever filled your tanks last actually filled them with a 50-50 mix of butane-propane. I have noticed that people who try to use Blue Rhino, etc., try to heat their RVs. These "pre-filled" tanks seemed to be filled with more of a heavy butane mix during the winter. Probably because they only fill a 20 pound tank with 15 pounds anyway, then with half that being butane, one will "run out" of gas with 7 pounds left in tank if below freezing. Last month, when we were in Pagosa Springs, CO, another Texan came in with a Passport with Blue Rhino tanks, and had no heat when the temperatures hit -15F at night! Tanks weighed in correctly, but had no gas. Yup . . . butane. He sure could have used your blankets!

I've told this story before on the Forum, but I'll relay it again. When a very young child, my folks and I moved to far northwestern Oklahoma. We lived in a stucco house with a sheet metal roof. My dad didn't know anything about propane/butane. He didn't have the tank filled in the fall. By the first freeze, we had no heat! Mom was mad! Our neighbor came to the rescue. A big armful of firewood and charcoal lighter. He built a fire at one end of the "butane tank". Suddenly we had heat in the furnace! Yup, building a small fire at one end of the tank heated the butane enough to provide gas for the house. Ah, certainly made us nervous! But by the next morning, the propane/butane company was out filling our tank with propane!

Ron
I believe the issue has more to do with the tank's propane volume and pressure both dropping substantially in extreme temperatures. As propane is used, it magnifies the condition, until the tank stops flowing. Once warmed, the tank will continue to function again.

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Old 03-08-2016, 12:09 PM   #5
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I use heat tape and it makes a world of difference When the bottles are empty they truly are as where I fill up the bottles are weighed.
Btw it's not your bottles that stop working it's your regulator. It doesn't take too much cold to freeze it up.
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Old 03-08-2016, 01:58 PM   #6
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I use heat tape and it makes a world of difference When the bottles are empty they truly are as where I fill up the bottles are weighed.
Btw it's not your bottles that stop working it's your regulator. It doesn't take too much cold to freeze it up.
Its not the regulators freezing, because they would function normally when the bottles were changed to fresh ones. The heat blankets will help prevent that problem if it were an issue as well though, as the heated bottles seem to add warmth to the compartments.
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Old 03-08-2016, 04:00 PM   #7
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One thing that you might attempt to do/USE instead of the Power Blanket product (which I'm confident would do a wonderful job, but maybe save a bit of $.$$) would be to purchase and use an Automotive Battery Blanket.

Purely as a REFERENCE, Princess Auto up her in Canada carry 60w, 80w and 120w warmers/blankets for (Can. $) 33, 44 and 58 dollars each (respectively),

A 30 lb propane tank is about 40" in circumference. The 160 watt blanket (prob. too big; go with the 60 or 80 watt ones) are 28 and 36 inches respectively.

Probably? the 80 watt units would be the way to go. One could consider installing one on each tank, and run the A/C wiring inside into the trailer on a separate A/C toggle for each to enable one to turn the heat on and off (separately) as desired.

60 or (even) 80 watts should NOT (IMO) pose any potential risk due to too much pressure build up, even absent any built in temp control.

'Anywho', that's what I would (consider) do(ing) 'cause I'm cheap!
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Old 03-08-2016, 05:04 PM   #8
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It only takes a very small amount of heat to keep the propane flowing. In the past on trailers with enclosed propane tanks (like fifth wheels) I placed one small adhesive KATZ heat pad (50 watts) under the center of the propane rack. Most are thermostatically controlled. This one is "on" at 35F and "off" at 45F. I placed it on the underside of the propane rack base so it wouldn't be damaged by sliding a propane tank over it, but with the base being made of steel, it conducted the heat to both tanks well enough to keep them "warm enough". I don't know if the 50 watt size would be enough heat for exposed tanks on a travel trailer, possibly that application would require a 100 watt pad. And, the pad cost is less than $20.

http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24050-Wat...tic+heat+block
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Old 03-08-2016, 06:39 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by hdxbonez View Post
Its not the regulators freezing, because they would function normally when the bottles were changed to fresh ones. The heat blankets will help prevent that problem if it were an issue as well though, as the heated bottles seem to add warmth to the compartments.
Take off the heat blanket, wait for a nice cold night where nothing functions and pour warm water over your regulator and all your LP devices will function properly. Trust me I've had to do this a few times. It has to get pretty cold to freeze LP and the theory that the LP bottles never become fully empty when it's cold out isn't true as I have mine weighed when filling them.
The regulator will freeze up as it's the smallest hole in the system for the LP to go through and when it's going through at a fast rate it stops it from functioning properly. The diaphragm is in a near frozen state and that's why it needs to be kept warm.
As for the costs the blankets are very expensive compared to the heat tape.
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Old 03-09-2016, 02:59 AM   #10
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JRTJH:

I *LIKE* your idea about the ‘KATZ Heater’ product, better even than the battery blanket idea.

Went to Amazon and checked it out. Learned the pads are (at least definitely SEEM TO BE):

(a) FLEXIBLE and
(b) Available in higher wattage sizes than the one you mentioned.

Building on your idea, I suggest that one could VERY EASILY AND CONVENIENTLY (therefore) ‘ATTACH’ such heaters TO THE SIDE of the propane tank using (say) MAGNETS – say one small magnet at each corner of the pad.

Indeed, one might even be able to use magnets AND fasten some sort of insulating ‘blanket material’ OVER the pad and thus maximize the amount of heat that would transfer ‘into’ the tank.

Neodymium (‘rare earth’) magnets MIGHT be used, though they are VERY STRONG and if one were to use (say) 4 such magnets on each pad, one might want to make some provision to enable them to be easily pulled off/up from underneath to avoid risking damage to the pad if one wanted to remove it.
A POSSABILITY HERE might be to purchase and use SILICONE BAKING/COOKIE SHEETS OVER THE HEATER (I have some at $4.99 each), wrap them OVER the heater and THEN use the magnets over THAT.

Should be VERY CONVENIENT and CHEAP to use, with a little imagination.

I think I personally MIGHT go with a slightly higher wattage – Amazon lists a 60 watt 5.5” x 8.5” unit for $10.00 more.

I also would like to ‘second’ your comment that it does NOT ‘take a lot of heat to keep the propane flowing! Al one needs to accomplish is heat a ‘bit’ of liquid propane inside the tank ‘close to’ the heater causing it to VAPORIZE and produce the necessary gas/gas PRESSURE to get the gas flowing. Convection currents in the liquid propane inside will keep things ‘going’.

In any event, NICE/I LIKE the idea!
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Old 03-09-2016, 05:20 AM   #11
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Hammertoe,

If you're going to attempt to "build a magnetic heater" you might want to consider the KATZ magnetic heater. It's 200 watts, is designed to magnetically attach to anything steel, works well and is also thermostatically controlled.

It's $30 and what I use on the hydraulic reservoir on my diesel tractor.

http://www.amazon.com/Kats-1153-Hand...ds=katz+heater

There are many other KATZ heaters available, both in "blanket" styles and as "magnetic blocks".
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Old 03-09-2016, 06:04 PM   #12
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Take off the heat blanket, wait for a nice cold night where nothing functions and pour warm water over your regulator and all your LP devices will function properly. Trust me I've had to do this a few times. It has to get pretty cold to freeze LP and the theory that the LP bottles never become fully empty when it's cold out isn't true as I have mine weighed when filling them.
The regulator will freeze up as it's the smallest hole in the system for the LP to go through and when it's going through at a fast rate it stops it from functioning properly. The diaphragm is in a near frozen state and that's why it needs to be kept warm.
As for the costs the blankets are very expensive compared to the heat tape.
Not saying you haven't had regulator problems, but I can assure you that my regulators weren't freezing. The problem is the extreme temps reduce the tank pressure to the point it activates the switching valve even though they are not empty. The lower the propane volume in the tank, the worse the condition. The Powerblankets heat the tanks to a max of 90*, restoring pressure and function. The mats that others are discussing would probably help in moderate cold, not sure how effective they would be in sub zero conditions
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Old 03-15-2016, 07:05 AM   #13
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I am pretty sure you could do the trick with a home heating pad and a space blanket. This looks like a problem with an easy and much cheaper solution than Powerblankets. A 12v solution could probably be made with holding tank heaters for boondockers.
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Old 03-15-2016, 02:04 PM   #14
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I am pretty sure you could do the trick with a home heating pad and a space blanket. This looks like a problem with an easy and much cheaper solution than Powerblankets. A 12v solution could probably be made with holding tank heaters for boondockers.
As far as I know, any of the home heating pads that you can buy today shut themselves off after a period of time. That would become a pia after a short amount of time. A 12 volt solution might be an option if you have generator or shore power, but if its cold enough to require heat on your propane tanks, I'd have to wonder how long your batteries would last between heating the tanks and powering the furnace....

I never proposed the Powerblankets as a cheap solution, but I can tell you they are safe, simple, easy to use, and designed exactly for the application. Knowing that my furnace will run all night when the temps get below zero is worth the price of admission for me.
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Old 03-15-2016, 02:46 PM   #15
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Not saying you haven't had regulator problems, but I can assure you that my regulators weren't freezing. The problem is the extreme temps reduce the tank pressure to the point it activates the switching valve even though they are not empty. The lower the propane volume in the tank, the worse the condition. The Powerblankets heat the tanks to a max of 90*, restoring pressure and function. The mats that others are discussing would probably help in moderate cold, not sure how effective they would be in sub zero conditions
I've never had a problem with the regulator I'm just stating that it's your regulator that gets cold and stops functioning. Keeping the bottles warm with heat blankets keep the regulator warm and that's why everything will function properly
As for the blankets they come in 12 volt and 120, the 12 volt blankets do suck the power but that's life
I've been going through some cold winters, -15 last winter and no problems.
As I've said before your tanks won't freeze, it's the regulator that needs to stay warm and it's way cheaper to buy heat tape for your regulator then it is to buy a heat blanket.
A short 2' 12 volt heat tape will put very little drain on your battery plus it has an auto shutoff on it.
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Old 03-16-2016, 05:21 AM   #16
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I've never had a problem with the regulator I'm just stating that it's your regulator that gets cold and stops functioning. Keeping the bottles warm with heat blankets keep the regulator warm and that's why everything will function properly
As for the blankets they come in 12 volt and 120, the 12 volt blankets do suck the power but that's life
I've been going through some cold winters, -15 last winter and no problems.
As I've said before your tanks won't freeze, it's the regulator that needs to stay warm and it's way cheaper to buy heat tape for your regulator then it is to buy a heat blanket.
A short 2' 12 volt heat tape will put very little drain on your battery plus it has an auto shutoff on it.
One more time.....
As ambient temperatures drop, the vapor pressure in an unheated propane cylinder drops as well. Further, as the liquid volume drops through use, pressure drops even further. At -40*F it stops flowing completely. I found that half-full 30# bottles stopped functioning at about -20*F. When I switched to a fresh bottle, it would flow again, until the propane reached the same approximate half-full level. It has NOTHING to due with the regulators.

When a propane cylinder is warmed, internal pressure is increased again, and normal function resumes. There is an entire industry devoted to propane TANK heating devices. I haven't found any propane regulator heating products. That tells me something.

Personally, it doesn't matter at all to me if you choose to heat your tanks or regulators, or how you choose to do it. I have no stake in the Powerblanket organization. If a couple of electrical wires and some duct tape wrapped around your propane plumbing makes you happy, then I'm happy for you too. I posted my results so that others who might want to use their RV's in very cold weather might avoid a difficult at best, and perhaps dangerous loss of propane flow to their furnace. Granted, they don't come cheap, but if it's 3am, and 20 below, and the furnace won't run, and the wife isnt too happy, the price doesn't seem so bad anymore.....
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Old 03-16-2016, 01:25 PM   #17
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One more time.....
As ambient temperatures drop, the vapor pressure in an unheated propane cylinder drops as well. Further, as the liquid volume drops through use, pressure drops even further. At -40*F it stops flowing completely. I found that half-full 30# bottles stopped functioning at about -20*F. When I switched to a fresh bottle, it would flow again, until the propane reached the same approximate half-full level. It has NOTHING to due with the regulators.

When a propane cylinder is warmed, internal pressure is increased again, and normal function resumes. There is an entire industry devoted to propane TANK heating devices. I haven't found any propane regulator heating products. That tells me something.

Personally, it doesn't matter at all to me if you choose to heat your tanks or regulators, or how you choose to do it. I have no stake in the Powerblanket organization. If a couple of electrical wires and some duct tape wrapped around your propane plumbing makes you happy, then I'm happy for you too. I posted my results so that others who might want to use their RV's in very cold weather might avoid a difficult at best, and perhaps dangerous loss of propane flow to their furnace. Granted, they don't come cheap, but if it's 3am, and 20 below, and the furnace won't run, and the wife isnt too happy, the price doesn't seem so bad anymore.....
Just for your info I live in mine 365 a yr, give or take a month here and there when I'm at my cabin. I have more experience with living in cold weather then you do and trust me if you have everything setup right your tanks will go completely empty. Like I said I have mine weighed and they weigh the same in the summer as they do in the winter
Btw I don't have a few wires wrapped around the regulator with duct tape; please don't put words in my mouth
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Old 03-16-2016, 02:30 PM   #18
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Just for your info I live in mine 365 a yr, give or take a month here and there when I'm at my cabin. I have more experience with living in cold weather then you do and trust me if you have everything setup right your tanks will go completely empty. Like I said I have mine weighed and they weigh the same in the summer as they do in the winter
Btw I don't have a few wires wrapped around the regulator with duct tape; please don't put words in my mouth
Fortunately for the rest of us, propane's physical properties have nothing to do with how many nights we sleep in our campers. The weight of the propane in the bottle never changes, regardless of the temperature. The pressure drops as the temperature drops. At -40*F, you can heat your regulators until they glow red, but you won't get any propane out of your tank and into your furnace until it warms up....

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Old 03-16-2016, 06:52 PM   #19
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Okay gentlemen - let's call it a draw. Shake hands and whatever works for each of you is good. It's probably warming up to a point where we don't need to keep the propane warm and cozy any longer.
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