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07-17-2019, 09:56 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Austin
Posts: 364
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Keystone issues
Boy - it was exhausting reading the whole story. About 3/4 of the way thru I started to wonder if this was all true or if it was like another long sad story I heard that ends with "...but I sure miss that dog".
Knock on wood - I have had some small issues with my Montana but I tended to all of them. So far so good.
__________________
'19 Chevy 3500 High Country DRW
'18 Montana 3921FB Aggie ‘77
('17 Laredo 330RL previous RV)
In the sticks near Austin TX
Aussie Gus+Texas Heeler Jimmy
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07-19-2019, 12:47 PM
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#22
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: North Port
Posts: 32
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I don’t know if the lemon laws apply here but i would think so. I would ask Keystone to replace your unit and if they don’t try touching base with an attorney to see what your options are.
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07-19-2019, 01:49 PM
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#23
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Site Team | Emeritus
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 3,878
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Hiring a lawyer will get your claim owed down to walking backward speed. Exercise caution going down this road.
__________________
Chip Bruce, RPh
Kansas City, MO
2016 Impact 312
2017 Silverado 3500HD SRW
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07-19-2019, 03:49 PM
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#24
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Picacho, Az
Posts: 6,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctbruce
Hiring a lawyer will get your claim owed down to walking backward speed. Exercise caution going down this road.
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Most times in this type of situation the only one benefiting is the lawyer, they get paid either win or lose.
__________________
Full-timed 10+ years
Sold '13 Redwood FB
Traded '13 GMC Denali DRW D/A
Replacement undetermined
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07-19-2019, 07:17 PM
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#25
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Ocean Isle Beach
Posts: 1,431
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Mention lawyer and you get shutdown. Keystone lawyers will take over. They have a lot more experience than anyone you can hire.
I’d make the list and ask to have the factory do the repairs. They will do a better job than any outside shop. Take it to the rally and talk to them there would be my 1st move.
__________________
2022.Montana 3855 BR
2019 F350 6.7 4X4 DRW
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07-20-2019, 09:09 AM
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#26
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Fruitland
Posts: 3,357
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I tried to read the first post and the problems. I reread it and not sure what to say. The entire wall fell off? put on by rivets? nails in the drawers? water in tail lights? etc. Okay the person does not know a screw from a staple or nail. Okay some will not. But the title should be RV buyer beware, do a complete PDI use the RV overnight in the driveway or nearby. Learn how things works. No rv brand or style is free of trouble.
By the way I broke a rule I have, do not respond to a new poster who goes on and on about the trouble with the new RV. It's to easy to embellish stuff on the web and we only get 1 side of a sad sack story. Some of this one I do beleive, but not most.
__________________
2013 24RKSWE (27ft TT) Cougar 1/2 ton series SOLD 10-2021
2013 Ford F350 4x4 CC 6.7 engine, 8 ft bed, 3.55 rear end, lariat package
Retired from Oregon State Police in 2011 than worked another 9.5 years as a small town traffic cop:
As of 05-2020, I am all done with 39 years total police work. No more uniforms for me.
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07-20-2019, 11:52 AM
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#27
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Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: NE Ohio
Posts: 503
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Whole complaint sounds suspicious. After making severe accusations the OP hasn't been back in the five days since.
If I was actually seeking help I would monitor the thread constantly. On the other hand if I had a misguided notion that I could somehow damage Keystone I would post and git.
__________________
2018 Cougar 26RBS
2016 Chevrolet 3500DRW D/A
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07-20-2019, 01:34 PM
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#28
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Wells County, Indiana
Posts: 112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptnJohn
Mention lawyer and you get shutdown. Keystone lawyers will take over. They have a lot more experience than anyone you can hire.
I’d make the list and ask to have the factory do the repairs. They will do a better job than any outside shop. Take it to the rally and talk to them there would be my 1st move.
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Agree, and I have read stories about others that threaten Lawyer and that is exactly what happened. They stop talking to you except thru council. Only as a last resort.
I also agree that you need to remain civil in your conversations. I previously said something about raising *heck* with them, maybe a bad choice of words.
You can make your point and do it respectfully. I also still think the whole industry needs to improve.
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07-21-2019, 10:49 AM
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#29
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Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Delaware
Posts: 4
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When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products. Just as we do for vehicles or any product a provider manufacturers. We must demand and speak up when we don’t feel safe. I do appreciate everyone’s comments. Thank you!
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07-21-2019, 11:43 AM
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#30
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Site Team
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Modesto
Posts: 20,353
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So the question is- what is the next step? knowing that nobody from Keystone monitors this forum that we know of, have you decided what actions your going to take.
EVERYBODY has the right to expect quality and EVERYBODY has the right to complain about lack of quality. Its what YOU DO to resolve YOUR ISSUE that matters the most.
__________________
2012 Copper Canyon 273FWRET being towed by a 1994 Ford F350 CC,LB,Dually diesel.
Airlift 5000 bags, Prodigy brake control, 5 gauges on the pillar.Used to tow a '97 Jayco 323RKS.
Now an RVIA registered tech. Retired from Law enforcement in 2008 after 25+ yrs.
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07-21-2019, 12:06 PM
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#31
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trmanning
When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products. Just as we do for vehicles or any product a provider manufacturers. We must demand and speak up when we don’t feel safe. I do appreciate everyone’s comments. Thank you!
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I agree with you about safety. I recently posted one section of the ANSI? safety requirements that RVIA follows for their certification as well as the RV manufacturers. But, don't confuse "safety" with shoddy workmanship - 2 very different things.
I also agree you don't have to keep quiet if you have had problems with an RV. The problem is recognizing at who's door that problem lies. Many, if not most, owners don't have any idea how the RV carousel turns and liken it to auto sales/regulations/etc. Apples and bananas. Most RVs are turned out with the expectation from the manufacturer that there will be some issues with the units; those corrections fall on the dealership it goes to. Some take that seriously and are head and shoulders above others who just pass those problems on to the unsuspecting, UNINSPECTING buyer who then may endure countless hours, days, months waiting to get all those "broken" things fixed that should have been caught...by the dealer, prior to taking possession.
So bottom line it IS sad that faulty units are produced and someone is going to get them, but that is the reality of RV manufacturing, sales and ownership. We have to do our very best due diligence up front, cross our fingers that we don't have "hidden" problems, get something that is going to work for the family and head on down the road....KNOWING full well that what you just bought could be "the one".
I'm sorry you've had so many issues and hope you get them resolved. I would encourage you to establish a CLOSE, friendly relationship with the dealership; it will be to your benefit.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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07-21-2019, 12:40 PM
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#32
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Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 452
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Trust me when I say be patient and friendly with the manufacturer's customer service reps, all they hear all daylong are irate aggrivated customers. They didn't build the campers nor do they have the ability to fix them.
The same goes for dealer reps, but they do have the ability to get them fixed.
Make sure the dealer sends detailed photos and descriptions of the problems for every issue. Customer service will NOT speak to you until the dealer sends them the information. Most dealers are lax when if comes to reporting all the problems correctly.
Make sure you have a copy of every service call, how long the camper stayed at the service center, results of service call, every phone call you made and who spoke to and how far you drove with mileage to get to service center.
Never mention lawyers! Remember there is no lemon law for trailers and 5th wheels. Their lawyers do this 24/7, any lawyer you get will be at a disadvantage. Also, take a close look at you sales agreement, I guarantee you that there is a clause that states you can't sue them, you must go through arbitration, again putting you at a disadvantage.
When contacting manufacturer be polite and understand they record all conversations so contacting the same rep each time isn't necessary but it helps if you can build a relationship with one rep. If you are not happy with the outcome, politely "plead" to get the call elevated to another level. Don't be embarrassed to "plead" your case.
Of course always keep the sales MANAGER or even better, the OWNER of the dealer informed on all issues.
This worked for me.......
Ron W.
__________________
2019 Cougar 25RLS
03 Dodge 2500 Cummins
Disc brakes
700 watts solar
2000 watt inverter
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07-21-2019, 01:37 PM
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#33
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2019
Location: Wickenburg
Posts: 3,314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trmanning
When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products.
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These folks have a lot to say about the safety of RVs in general... and the price tag involved in improving them. I bought my first TT according to the advice in their ratings and was very happy with it for 20 years. But that manufacturer was absorbed by Winnie, I lost track of the nonprofit until a couple weeks ago, and I bought my current Cougar on the basis of floorplan and amenities.
I'm happy with those as far as they go, but the build quality issues are like night and day. In less than a year, I've had two furnace failures, an A/C failure, a spare tire that couldn't be accessed, a non-working range fan motor, and no water to the toilet, all factory issues. Luckily I found most of those in my driveway and not on the road (especially the tire issue). But we had nothing like any of these issues with our previous rig.
__________________
2019 Cougar 26RBSWE
2019 Ford F-250
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07-21-2019, 03:17 PM
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#34
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Norwood, CO
Posts: 685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trmanning
When we all pay as much as we do for quality and get half a** work we have a right to tell everyone and should demand safety in our products. Just as we do for vehicles or any product a provider manufacturers. We must demand and speak up when we don’t feel safe. I do appreciate everyone’s comments. Thank you!
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Absolutely! So what is the ongoing status? Or is it too soon to know?
I noticed several replies that spoke to car manufactures and that is like comparing apples and oranges. There is soooo much robot work done on cars and trucks. And the tolerances now that can be achieved with computer controlled machining truly make vehicles with 200,000 miles a everyday occurrence now. When I was a kid almost no one held onto a truck for more than 100,000 miles.
RVs on the other hand are mostly human built vs Robot built. HUGE difference in consistency.
So trmanning I think we are all still very much interested in how your case goes so please keep us posted.
Still wonder how lemon laws apply to RVs and to what Keystone says to your dealer about this.
Oak
__________________
German Shepherd Guy
2018 Keystone 26RBPR
2014 Suburban 2500, 6L with 3.73 rear
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07-21-2019, 05:07 PM
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#35
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Fort Collins
Posts: 125
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I do agree with many of the opinions voiced on this thread with one exception. I think as the RV buying community we are too fast to let the manufacturers off the hook for the level of product quality leaving the factory. I was a manufacturing operations professional for my entire 40+ year career, including positions as GM and COO for enterprises building electronics, solar products, contract manufacturing and hydrovac excavator bodies built on class 8 chassis. I would be embarrassed (and probably fired) if I allowed my factory to deliver the level of quality which is allowed by many of the RV manufacturers. It is inexcusable regardless of cost targets and price points!
__________________
2012 Cougar 21RBSWE
2018 GMC 1500 5.3L, 4x4, crew cab, max tow pkg
Andersen Hitch
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07-21-2019, 05:23 PM
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#36
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&DZ
I do agree with many of the opinions voiced on this thread with one exception. I think as the RV buying community we are too fast to let the manufacturers off the hook for the level of product quality leaving the factory. I was a manufacturing operations professional for my entire 40+ year career, including positions as GM and COO for enterprises building electronics, solar products, contract manufacturing and hydrovac excavator bodies built on class 8 chassis. I would be embarrassed (and probably fired) if I allowed my factory to deliver the level of quality which is allowed by many of the RV manufacturers. It is inexcusable regardless of cost targets and price points!
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Yes, and I agree, but what exactly is the resolution if they sell everything they can throw together as fast as they come out? The objective of the business is to churn out production because they are going to sell whatever comes out. Quality? Not in the mix because more time spent on the unit equals higher cost which loses every time in the marketplace.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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07-21-2019, 06:36 PM
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#37
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Fort Collins
Posts: 125
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Danny,
You are correct that cost and weight reduction are the driving measures of the industry to meet the demand for products and far exceed product quality. This will most likely not change until market conditions and/or consumer expectations change. The sad thing is that adopting a few tried and true design fundamentals and quality procedures would drastically improve delivered product quality/reliability with very little impact to product cost.
__________________
2012 Cougar 21RBSWE
2018 GMC 1500 5.3L, 4x4, crew cab, max tow pkg
Andersen Hitch
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07-21-2019, 07:03 PM
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#38
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Site Team
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 17,695
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&DZ
Danny,
You are correct that cost and weight reduction are the driving measures of the industry to meet the demand for products and far exceed product quality. This will most likely not change until market conditions and/or consumer expectations change. The sad thing is that adopting a few tried and true design fundamentals and quality procedures would drastically improve delivered product quality/reliability with very little impact to product cost.
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I again agree, but maybe you or I should approach them and see if they want to hire us to implement those "quality/reliability" measures after we advise them in an interview that that is what our objective is...... Now, we are back to status quo and doing the best we can with what we have until the market slows down....maybe.
I also think that comparing your past with RV manufacturers is one of those apple/oranges things. When you rolled a product out your door that was the end of it...the customer was the next person with your product - the way it is with most things. In the RV world the dealer accepts the fact that they are going to get defects and agree to work with the manufacturer to correct those, at the dealership, prior to delivery to the customer; that is just a given norm in the RV industry and a huge problem for buyers. Not the same in other sales channels. I see lines of RVs sitting outside the repair bays; brand new ones awaiting being on the sale line, with untold issues that need to be repaired. It's the nature of the beast.
__________________
Danny and Susan, wife of 56 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SWB SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
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07-22-2019, 02:37 AM
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#39
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Wells County, Indiana
Posts: 112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough
I also think that comparing your past with RV manufacturers is one of those apple/oranges things.
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Not apples/Oranges in my humble opinion. I also come from a manufacturing background (I was a 6 Sigma Quality Black Belt). Our entire plant would have been shut down if we were putting out the crap the RV manufacturers put out. The whole industry needs a wake-up call. The problem is, they don't care because they can get away with it. I remain hopeful that somebody will come along and shake things up.
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07-22-2019, 04:43 AM
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#40
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Norwood, CO
Posts: 685
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P&DZ
I do agree with many of the opinions voiced on this thread with one exception. I think as the RV buying community we are too fast to let the manufacturers off the hook for the level of product quality leaving the factory. I was a manufacturing operations professional for my entire 40+ year career, including positions as GM and COO for enterprises building electronics, solar products, contract manufacturing and hydrovac excavator bodies built on class 8 chassis. I would be embarrassed (and probably fired) if I allowed my factory to deliver the level of quality which is allowed by many of the RV manufacturers. It is inexcusable regardless of cost targets and price points!
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I agree but don't think we really let them off the hook, rather our choices are limited.
I used my 2018 TT this last week as a guest house for visitors. As I went to put in one of the slides I noticed that the rubber piece on the top meant to keep water out of the TT when the slide is out was coming loose from its anchorage. This TT is not even a year old, been used not as much as I would have liked, and I have already had to repair the slide motor mounts on this same slide-out, (fell off after the first use) and now re-attach the rubber seal. (after maybe 20 uses) Amazing. BUT, I at least knew that going in I would need to be "handy". I would rather not be, and my dealer would be willing to do the repairs but I can see the long line of RVs outside the shop and do not really want my TT sitting out in the weather "waiting" its turn. Plus I know the repair is done right. My point? Until someone ups the ante by offering a truly better built product, and until the buying public demands the uptick in quality, then quality will not be "job 1" and no one will be "fired" on the line because of bad construction practices. If I was betting in fact I would bet there have been guys fired for going too slow and trying to get it right on the line. That is JMO.
I really like my 26RBPR, but I do acknowledge that I have already done more "repair and maintenance" work on it than I did on both my previous TTs combined. And it is brand new.
Still await the OPs relating how his experience with his dealer and with Keystone goes in correcting what are obviously over the top problems with his new trailer.
Oak
__________________
German Shepherd Guy
2018 Keystone 26RBPR
2014 Suburban 2500, 6L with 3.73 rear
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