Alert for all California RV'ers

[Firecapt]

A word of warning to all California RV'ers:

About 6 months ago a friend of mine who, like me, has a 5er, was involved in an accident. The other driver was uninsured but my friend wasn’t concerned because he had uninsured motorist insurance as part of his policy.

His insurance company denied his claim because he was “not licensed to tow” his 5er. Indeed, he hadn’t gotten the proper endorsement on his California DL for towing a 5th wheel (see here: http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648pt5.htm)

He was unaware of the law requiring this endorsement and had been towing his 5er all over the U.S. for years without it. I didn’t even think to ask him if he had this endorsement on his license... I had one on mine since I got my 5er.

As a result, he lost his 5er (it was totaled, and he wasn't reimbursed) and had to pay for all of the repairs to his TV (Ford F-350).

I checked this with DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) and found the following:

In order to tow a trailer or fifth wheel up to 15,000 GVWR you need an endorsement on your license.

If you are towing a trailer or fifth wheel with a GVWR greater than 15,000 you need to get a non-commercial class A license.

If you are properly licensed in California to tow a 5th wheel, all other state have what is called “reciprocal agreements” regarding licensing and will honor California’s coverage.

So it seems that if you don’t have the proper license in California to tow your 5er, you are SOL if you get in an accident, whether it was your fault or not. Makes sense to get the endorsement or proper license.

Here’s a link to the handbook for the license test:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl648/dl648.pdf

Hope this helps those of you that didn’t have this info.

[Clanton24v]

Wow that's just crazy

[Scottinvt]

Wow never heard of such a thing.

[Ruffus]

After 35 years in California and 20 years as a Deputy Sheriff there, I don't miss all the crap. An endorsement to tow a 5ver is just another way to raise money. Has the air around Los Angeles cleared up after 30 years of smog control on your vehicles, I think not.
Move East unless you can't live without that beautiful Pacific Coast, the blueist water in the world, and the smell of kelp is unique to that part of the world.
Okay I'm done, I still miss the camping there, nothing like it anywhere!

[Ron]

Wow, another crazy California law........Sorry about his 5ver, hope he will be able to pull out of that one and continue his travels..............Ron

[halfprice]

I just read all the links you posted and it looks like I'm ok to pull my 5th because it weighs less than 10,000.

From the DMV sit:


Recreational Trailer Endorsement


A driver must have a fifth-wheel recreational trailer endorsement added to his/her Class C driver license to pull a fifth-wheel recreational trailer over 10,000 lbs., but not over 15,000 lbs. GVWR, which is not used for hire. This endorsement is not required if the driver has a commercial or noncommercial Class A driver license.


My 5th is I believe around 7500lbs so I'm good to go.


Jerry

[mhs4771]

Just so you know, that type of requirements hits a lot of other states also. In New York State, if the combined weight of TV and Trailer or a MH is over 26000 Lbs it requires an "R" endorsement on your license (this now replaces the old Non-Commercial CDL), which by the way involves a Road Test with the unit in question and after the Road Test, you need someone else to drive your rig away as you're not licensed yet.

[Javi]

Texas has much the same law..

CLASSIFIED DRIVER LICENSE (Texas Transportation Code, Section 521)
The following listed Class A, B, C, and M licenses will be issued to persons
who are exempt from obtaining a Commercial Driver License or persons who
are not required to obtain a Commercial Driver License:

1. Class A driver license permits a person to drive any vehicle or combination
of vehicles with a gross combination weight rating of 26,001 pounds or
more, provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being towed
is in excess of 10,000 pounds; including a vehicle included in Class B or
Class C, except a motorcycle or moped.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 17 with completion of an approved driver education
course including classroom and practical training or approval of minor’s
hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.

2. Class B driver license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
a. a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001
pounds or more, and any such vehicle towing either a vehicle with a
gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed 10,000 pounds, or a
farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that does not exceed
20,000 pounds;
b. a bus with a seating capacity of 24 passengers or more, including the
driver; and
c. a vehicle included in Class C.
Minimum Ages: 18, or 17 with completion of an approved driver education
course including classroom and practical training or approval of a minor’s
hardship application.
Fee: $24.00 for 6 years. Applicants under the age of 18 are charged $5.00
for a license to expire on the next birthday.

3. Class C driver license permits a person to drive the following vehicles,
except a motorcycle or moped:
1-4
a. a single unit vehicle, or combination of vehicles, that is not a Class A
or B; and
b. a single unit vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating of less than
26,001 pounds, towing a trailer not to exceed 10,000 pounds gross vehicle
weight rating or a farm trailer with a gross vehicle weight rating that
does not exceed 20,000 pounds.

[smiller]

Just FWIW Texas's law is similar but not as stringent. In Texas you need a non-commercial Class A license if your combined GVWR is over 26,000 lbs. AND you are towing a trailer weighing more than 10,000 lbs. so while one of the heavier truck/5th combinations could trigger the requirement, most won't. In California you need the endorsement for any trailer over 10,000 pounds and this probably covers the majority of 5th wheels so I would think it affects many more owners. But then again the CA endorsement is free and looks pretty easy to get, or at least a lot easier than a Texas Class A.

Thanks to Firecapt for pointing this out, I had no idea the CA law existed.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by smiller

Just FWIW Texas's law is similar but not as stringent. In Texas you need a non-commercial Class A license if your combined GVWR is over 26,000 lbs. AND you are towing a trailer weighing more than 10,000 lbs. so while one of the heavier truck/5th combinations could trigger the requirement, most won't. In California you need the endorsement for any trailer over 10,000 pounds and this probably covers the majority of 5th wheels so I would think it affects many more owners. But then again the CA endorsement is free and looks pretty easy to get, or at least a lot easier than a Texas Class A.

Thanks to Firecapt for pointing this out, I had no idea the CA law existed.

You might want to read that again.. unless I'm missing something if the trailer exceeds 10,000 GVWR you need a class A in Texas..

[smiller]

Originally Posted by Javi

You might want to read that again.. unless I'm missing something if the trailer exceeds 10,000 GVWR you need a class A in Texas..

Yeah, that's how I read it at first as well. The confusion seems to be around what they call a 'single unit vehicle', but if you read the TX Driver's Handbook and/or research this on the web you'll see that what I said it correct. But admittedly it's rather confusing as written and easy to misunderstand, had me concerned for a while.

[Javi]

That was a direct cut and paste from the newest Texas drivers handbook

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I727 using Tapatalk 2

[smiller]

I don't know what to tell you, research it some more. As I said, it is confusing. I would try to explain further but I don't want to do it on an iPhone

[SAD]

Oklahoma = "regardless of weight" in reference to GVWR for a regular class D (car) license. As long as its registered for, and it's primary use is recreational.

54,000 GVWR Prevost, here I come!

[smiller]

OK, to explain the Texas law (actually many states are the same in terms of classification as this follows Federal DOT regs) and why a Class A license is not needed unless the tow vehicle and trailer combination exceeds 26,000 lbs... as I mentioned the confusion is in the term "single unit vehicle" which doesn't necessarily mean how it sounds. Per DOT regs a 2-axle, 4-tire standard pickup truck towing an RV is technically considered a single unit vehicle and they are saying that this combination cannot be more than 26,000 lbs. The '10,000 lb.' part means that unless the trailer weighs more than 10,000 lbs. then it isn't included in the gross combination weight calculation, and that is the reason for the strange wording of the "provided the gross vehicle weight rating of the vehicle(s) being towed is in excess of 10,000 pounds" statement in the Texas statute. IOW, because my trailer has a GVWR of 12,000 lbs. I must add that to the GVWR of the tow vehicle when considering the 26,000 limitation. But if the two are still under 26,000 lbs. then I am not in Class A territory.

Another way of looking at it is if you were driving a Class A unit that weighed 20,000 lbs. then you could tow a trailer weighing 8,000 lbs. since the trailer doesn't count towards the 26,000 lb. limit because it is under 10,000 lbs. So even through the total weight of both is over 26,000 you are still legal.

Clear as mud? As I said, it's very confusing.


Note: For reference check this link for the definition of 'single unit vehicle':

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt2.cfm

and then click on the 'Chapter III' link and look at vehicle code 3, to wit: "Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification."



Sorry for the hijack Firecapt!

[schwalbach]

In Wisconsin you are good to go with just a regular license, no special endorsements or CDL, but my feeling has always been, if you have a CDL, and you get in an accident and it is not your fault, they can not come at you and say, "well he obviously did not know what he was doing, he does not even hold a license to drive that heavy of a rig", with a CDL it is one less thing to come at you with and gives you a better defense if you need it. State says you can drive the rig!

Quote from Wisdot manual:

1.3 Wisconsin CDL
WHO IS EXEMPT FROM CDL
LICENSING IN WISCONSIN?
Federal law allows states the option to waive certain kinds of
drivers from the requirement to obtain a CDL. In Wisconsin,
the following drivers are not required to hold a CDL:
● Fire fighters and rescue squad members
are not required to hold a CDL to drive properly
equipped emergency or fire fighting vehicles.
● Recreational vehicle operators (owned or leased
motor home, fifth wheel mobile home or touring mobile
home, provided it isn’t longer than 45 feet) not engaged
in commercial activity are not required to hold a CDL.


this is the only weight or towing type classification in Wisconsin "CDL"

[hankaye]

smiller, Howdy;

Originally Posted by smiller

<CUT> for brevity

Note: For reference check this link for the definition of 'single unit vehicle':

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt2.cfm

and then click on the 'Chapter III' link and look at vehicle code 3, to wit: "Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification."
Sorry for the hijack Firecapt!

I followed you link then over to Chapter III.
The followingis a much more compleate reading for those not inclined to follow
links and take someone's word that they are posting the full statement.

"single unit vehicles" are defined by lines 5-7 NOT 3. You may also note the use of the term. " All vehicles on a single frame ... " My italics.

The following is from;

HPMS Field Manual

Chapter 3: Summary Data Requirements

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/hpmsmanl/chapt3.cfm

Yes, the whole Ch. 3. It's used to determine the classification of vehicles for
dividing them into units for determining usage of all of the roads in a State
per year. But it also determines what defines what each type is...

" In reporting information for the area wide Travel Activity by Vehicle Type Form, the following criteria should be followed:
•Single-Unit Trucks are described by vehicle type 5 – 7 as defined in the TMG, and exclude buses.(My highlight)
•Combination-Unit Trucks are described by vehicle type 8 – 13 as defined in the TMG.
•Truck-tractor units traveling without a trailer should be considered single-unit trucks.
•A truck-tractor unit pulling other such units in a "piggyback" (or "saddle-mount") configuration should be considered as one single-unit truck and be defined only by the axles on the pulling unit.
•Vehicles should be defined based on the number of axles in contact with the roadway. Therefore, "floating" axles are counted only when in the down position.
•The term "trailer" includes both semi- and full-trailers.
•Rural Other Arterial includes rural other principal and rural minor arterial functional systems.
•Other Rural includes major collector, rural minor collector, and rural local functional systems.
•Other Urban Arterial includes urban other freeways & expressways, urban other principal arterials, and urban minor arterials.
•Other Urban includes urban collector and urban local functional systems.

The States collect vehicle classification data annually at continuous permanent installations and portable sites. The site-specific classification and station description data should be sent with the truck Weigh In Motion data to the Office of Highway Policy Information (HPPI-30) using the FHWA data formats by June 15th of the year following the year for which the data are collected. Additional information about FHWA data formats is found in the TMG.

Vehicle Type Codes and Descriptions1

Code

Description

1

Motorcycles (Optional): All two- or three-wheeled motorized vehicles. Typical vehicles in this category have saddle type seats and are steered by handlebars rather than a wheel. This category includes motorcycles, motor scooters, mopeds, motor-powered bicycles, and three-wheeled motorcycles. This vehicle type may be reported at the option of the State, but should not be reported with any other vehicle type.

2

Passenger Cars: All sedans, coupes, and station wagons manufactured primarily for the purpose of carrying passengers and including those passenger cars pulling recreational or other light trailers. Vehicles registered as passenger cars that are pickups, panels, vans, etc. (described as vehicle type "3") should be reported as vehicle type "3".

3

Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire, Single-Unit Vehicles: All two-axle, four-tire vehicles, other than passenger cars. Included in this classification are pickups, panels, vans, and other vehicles such as campers, motor homes, ambulances, hearses, and carryalls. Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification.

4

Buses: All vehicles manufactured as traditional passenger-carrying buses with two-axles, six-tires and three or more axles. This category includes only traditional buses (including school buses) functioning as passenger-carrying vehicles. All two-axle, four-tire minibuses should be classified as other two-axle, four-tire, single-unit vehicles (type "3"). Modified buses should be considered as trucks and be appropriately classified.

5

Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.

6

Three-Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having three axles.

7

Four-or-More Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame with four or more axles.

8

Four-or-Less Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with four or less axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

9

Five-Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All five-axle vehicles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

10

Six-or-More Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with six or more axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

11

Five-or-Less Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with five or less axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit.

12

Six-Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All six-axle vehicles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

13

Seven-or-More Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with seven or more axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit. "

Sorry to create such a large post just felt compelled to render the WHOLE story.

hankaye

[smiller]

Originally Posted by hankaye

The followingis a much more compleate reading for those not inclined to follow links and take someone's word that they are posting the full statement.

I kind of resent your implication that I was trying to cover anything up or tell anything less than the 'WHOLE' (your emphasis) story. I didn't post the entire text for clarity, not because I was trying to hide something. I want the correct answer as much as anyone else.

Getting to your point... on one page it says 'Any single-unit vehicle described by vehicle types 3-7 in Chapter III' and in the section you quoted it does indeed say single unit vehicles are defined by types 5-7. I don't know for certain which is correct but I would guess the former because why wouldn't 'Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire, Single-Unit Vehicles' (Type 3) and Buses (Type 4) be considered single unit vehicles? You seem to be saying that they should not be included in the single unit vehicle definition and I can't see why that would be the case, and if not then the 'types 3-7' definition seems to be most correct.

But apart from all of that, are you saying that you know for certain that a Class A license is required in Texas any time a vehicle tows more than 10,000 lbs., or just debating the precise meaning of the DOT regs? I think the first question is what we're really interested in.

[smiller]

And I think I see the answer. Single unit vehicles are described by types 3-7 and single unit trucks are described by types 5-7. And that makes sense since types 5-7 are trucks and types 3-7 include vehicles other than trucks. But the Texas statute references single-unit vehicles so... 3-7.

[hankaye]

smiller, Howdy;

Perhaps I was a bit harsh in my original responce... I appoligize.

So, Looking back at The Ch. 2 that you originally sent us to to find we needed to be at Ch. 3.
Chapter 2: Definitions

This chapter contains definitions to be used in preparing HPMS data for FHWA. Specific details addressing summary, universe, standard and donut area sample data, and LRS locational data are contained in Chapters III, IV and V, respectively. Chapter VI contains data updating requirements and Chapter VII contains information on sample selection and maintenance. Collectively, these chapters provide necessary definitions, guidelines, coding instructions, reporting formats, and update specifications necessary to facilitate the reporting of current, consistent, and uniform data on a nationwide basis.

Certification of Public Road Mileage: An annual document furnished by each state to FHWA certifying the total public road length (kilometers or miles) in the state as of December 31st. This document is to be signed by the Governor of the State or by his/her designee and provided to FHWA by June 1st of the year following (23 CFR 460). See the definition of "Public Road".

Combination Truck or Vehicle: Any multi-unit vehicle described by vehicle types 8-13 in Chapter III."

Don't know what type of RV you have but mine is comprised of 2 units,
a tow vehicle (pick-up truck), and a towed vehicle (RV). That would indicate to me that it is a combination of sorts. However, when looking over the list of Codes and Descriptions, Code 2. one see's that when registered as a passenger vehicle are grouped into Group 3.
However, Folks with a DRW pick-up need to read carefully here,
"Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.", are Group 5. Subtile differences that the
Barney Fifes of this world thrive on.......







Vehicle Type Codes and Descriptions(1)
Code Description
1
Motorcycles (Optional): All two- or three-wheeled motorized vehicles. Typical vehicles in this category have saddle type seats and are steered by handlebars rather than a wheel. This category includes motorcycles, motor scooters, mopeds, motor-powered bicycles, and three-wheeled motorcycles. This vehicle type may be reported at the option of the State, but should not be reported with any other vehicle type.

2
Passenger Cars: All sedans, coupes, and station wagons manufactured primarily for the purpose of carrying passengers and including those passenger cars pulling recreational or other light trailers. Vehicles registered as passenger cars that are pickups, panels, vans, etc. (described as vehicle type "3") should be reported as vehicle type "3".

3
Other Two-Axle, Four-Tire, Single-Unit Vehicles: All two-axle, four-tire vehicles, other than passenger cars. Included in this classification are pickups, panels, vans, and other vehicles such as campers, motor homes, ambulances, hearses, and carryalls. Other two-axle, four-tire single-unit vehicles pulling recreational or other light trailers are included in this classification.

4
Buses: All vehicles manufactured as traditional passenger-carrying buses with two-axles, six-tires and three or more axles. This category includes only traditional buses (including school buses) functioning as passenger-carrying vehicles. All two-axle, four-tire minibuses should be classified as other two-axle, four-tire, single-unit vehicles (type "3"). Modified buses should be considered as trucks and be appropriately classified.

5
Two-Axle, Six-Tire, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having two axles and dual rear wheels.

6
Three-Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame including trucks, camping and recreational vehicles, motor homes, etc., having three axles.

7
Four-or-More Axle, Single-Unit Trucks: All vehicles on a single frame with four or more axles.

8
Four-or-Less Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with four or less axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

9
Five-Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All five-axle vehicles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

10
Six-or-More Axle, Single-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with six or more axles consisting of two units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

11
Five-or-Less Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with five or less axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit.

12
Six-Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All six-axle vehicles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power-unit.

13
Seven-or-More Axle, Multi-Trailer Trucks: All vehicles with seven or more axles consisting of three or more units, one of which is a tractor or straight truck power‑unit.


(1) Additional information about the means of identifying the vehicle types may be found in the current FHWA Traffic Monitoring Guide.

hankaye