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Old 10-03-2015, 08:33 AM   #1
dcg9381
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Roof issue - opinion 2015 Carbon

I'm pretty diligent about keeping up with my roof, mainly because I know how much havoc a water leak can cause.

I found the follow roof tear after a trip to S. Texas. I've been up on the roof 4-5 times in the last 6 months and didn't see this before. It appears to be a cut caused by that frame of the AC unit. The AC unit sits on the seal, isn't loose, so I'm not sure how this happened.

My concern is that for this to happen, the roof membrane would have been swollen while driving... Or the AC would have had to completely compress the seal.

There is some bubbling around the roof membrane - and some bubbles a good 16" to the right of the AC unit, so I know I don't have full adhesion in some spots. Pretty much all of my RVs have had an air pocket or two, so not sure how big a deal this is on a unit that's 6 months old.

I had some dicor with me, so I've got it patched up enough for the drive home up to the Texarkana... I seem to remember that dicor isn't an approved material for this roof type?

Anyway - interested in opinions on how this happened and how far I should go to repair it. If the dealer is just going to slap some dicor on it, then I'd just as soon do it myself and prevent it from sitting on the dealer lot for a month hoping for no rain.



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Old 10-03-2015, 11:52 AM   #2
bobbecky
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I think if it were mine, and I don't see how the A/C could have moved that far to cut the membrane, I would have lifted the A/C, applied EternaBond to cover the entire cut, and then sealed the edges of the tape repair with the Dicor sealant. The Dicor sealant is used for EPDM and TPO roof products, and the EternaBond tape works on any surface, so not sure what your roof material is if it isn't one of these two types.
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Old 10-03-2015, 03:46 PM   #3
dcg9381
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Thank you for the repair suggestion. I do have some eternabond.
If that AC didn't drop to the roof, that means the roof is coming up to the AC.
I'm going to put a camera up there and see if we have any roof swelling on the way home...
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Old 10-04-2015, 02:51 PM   #4
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It looks like this is caused by a lack of adhesion on the roof. The front is billowing. Dicor didn't hold on the way home and eternabond is going to get cut also as that membrane is lifting. So I need to figure out what the appropriate repair is here. I've got no experience dealing with a lack of adhesion, so advice from you veterans would be welcome.

Who makes the roof? I believe it's TPO as it's got texture. I looked in the manual and it indicates it could be made out of a "polymer membrane".

From what I read, Keystone considers most roof issues a manufacturer warranty issue or a maintenance issue, which seems to be backed up by the manual:
Quote:
However, be advised that any attachment, seams or joints in the rubber roof requires maintenance..

Do you guys know who makes the roofing material for new units? I'd like to ask them about the best way to repair it.
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Old 10-04-2015, 03:14 PM   #5
Festus2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
It looks like this is caused by a lack of adhesion on the roof. The front is billowing. Dicor didn't hold on the way home and eternabond is going to get cut also as that membrane is lifting. So I need to figure out what the appropriate repair is here. I've got no experience dealing with a lack of adhesion, so advice from you veterans would be welcome.

Who makes the roof? I believe it's TPO as it's got texture. I looked in the manual and it indicates it could be made out of a "polymer membrane".

From what I read, Keystone considers most roof issues a manufacturer warranty issue or a maintenance issue, which seems to be backed up by the manual:



Do you guys know who makes the roofing material for new units? I'd like to ask them about the best way to repair it.

Check out this YouTube video which explains the two types of materials found on most RV roofs: EPDM and TPO. It also shows how to determine which type you have. Both are manufactured by Dicor.

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Old 10-04-2015, 03:24 PM   #6
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Thanks. It's TPO - it has texture and is the same color (white) on both sides.

The manual says that TPO is made by alpha superflex (www.alphasystemsinc.com).
Any suggestions on repair from you veterans out there?
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Old 10-04-2015, 07:52 PM   #7
James262
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So, here is my story,

I have the same issue, same spot, same cut ,caused by the a/c unit and lack of roof material adhesion. 3 yr old Fuzion, I am the second owner, bought the rig from a Dealer. I contacted the dealer and Keystone via phone and e-mail with pictures of the surrounding roof and seal calking. There were no voids in the seal to introduce air under the roof material. This was noted by the Service Manager of the Dealership.Keystone denied the repair at first stating lack of maintance. I contacted them and pleaded my case, the TH was less then three years old and there were no voids in the surrounding seal. Keystone had a Gen, Service Manager contact the dealer SM and after talking with the SM approve a repair. This seems to not be an unusual problem, a TH arrived at the dealer with a identical problem the day after I contacted the dealer. I was totally calm and cool with everyone and now I have an appointment for repair on the 14th. The whole process took about 5 weeks.
Hang in there.
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Old 10-05-2015, 05:35 AM   #8
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The textured roof is tpo. It is made by Alpha systems. Sounds like not enough glue was used to glue it down. Not the first time I have seen this. If it under warranty bring it in and have the roof replaced.

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Old 10-05-2015, 06:49 AM   #9
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It's 5 months old or so. I'm seeing a lot of the above - that Keystones initial response is that this is caused by lack of maintenance, but those are on units that are older.

I've reached out to Alpha to see if I can get something in writing indicating lack of adhesion (obvious) before I try the warranty route.

What's the appropriate expectation here? The roof could be re-adhered from the front AC forward and the cuts patched, but again, it's a 5-month old RV. Or new roof? I'd really want to know that my dealer can do quality work before proceeding down the new roof route.
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Old 10-05-2015, 07:35 AM   #10
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There are a couple of threads related to air conditioner/roof cuts that have been "idle" for a few months now. One in particular seems to be almost the same damage as you've experienced. I can't remember the results of that damaged roof, but do remember that the pictures posted on that thread are very similar to your damage.

You might want to do a forum search for "roof damage" or "roof cut" and see if you can find them. As I recall, there was some factory interaction, but I'm unsure of the results.
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Old 10-05-2015, 10:21 AM   #11
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Thanks, John for that suggestion, I did a search quite a bit.

For anyone else's reference here's what I found in terms of the same issue:
1) http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...d.php?p=186347
2) http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=19657
3) http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ht=roof+bubble
4) http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=20899
5) http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...+bubble&page=2
6) http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7699

Another member took a video of what this looks like - might be worth checking if you can feel a lack of adhesion on the front part of your roof:



It seems that Keystone has covered at least some of these under warranty. My take is that a few of these issues where the seal in the front failed are probably because the owner didn't notice the bubble forming early enough and the roof eventually pulls free of the front. Wish me luck..
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Old 10-06-2015, 06:37 AM   #12
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Alpha Systems called me back today. They said on "newer" units as long as the roof wasn't torn or overly-stretched that re-gluing was an allowed repair.

Apparently most common cause is not using enough adhesive or not properly providing enough contact pressure after putting the TPO over the roof adhesive. The Carbon has a "flat" roof, which is going to incur low pressure in front while driving.

My roof is torn, but the tear is relatively small, re-glue may be a more conservative repair than a new roof - which apparently requires new roof material and/or screwing 1/8th in surface over the existing roof for a new bond.

I've notified Keystone and the dealer. Neither has provided me with any updates yet...
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Old 10-06-2015, 12:42 PM   #13
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That's looks more like a poor installation job. Looks like they cut the TPO to much around the AC roof opening before they installed it.
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Old 10-06-2015, 04:50 PM   #14
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There's TPO on the other side of the cut, well into the vent section. I don't see anything wrong with the way the TPO was cut - and I removed the AC to check. The AC gasket sits on the TPO.

I patched it up with some Eternabond to keep water out. There are bubbles in there because the edges of the TPO or stretched and in pretty bad shape..

Keystone hasn't responded to my contact, but I'm going to now drop this off at the dealer and at least start the official "out of service" clock. Hopefully this is a relatively minor issue..


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Old 10-06-2015, 07:23 PM   #15
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What did the dealer have to say about this? Seeing it is a 2015 I would let them deal with it.
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Old 10-07-2015, 06:23 AM   #16
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Dealer said "bring it in" - I asked when could they get to it and if it would be kept out of the rain. Indicated they'd get to it when Keystone approves a repair and no that they didn't have room to store it indoors.

They said they could get started with Keystone based on my photos. Keystone replied to me today and didn't have any record of the issue (yet).

I patched it up with Eternabond - member suggestion. I just called and will be dropping it off tomorrow as I'm not worried about water intrusion anymore.


Likely I'm going to get a 2nd opinion on the way - Keystone is fixing this several ways, sometimes by cutting out the debonded TPO and patching it back in, sometimes by full roof replacement. Different dealers do roof replacements in different ways, with at least one Carbon owner I talked to being left with a mess afterwards. Keystone expects their dealers to be competent in repairs and the warranty excludes roofs that hold water but look bad, so that's something to watch out for.

Wish me luck.
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:50 PM   #17
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Good luck. Hope the dealer is a good rood guy.
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Old 10-08-2015, 11:24 AM   #18
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I brought it to two independents, both said: "new roof".

Took it to the dealer today, service manager said "new roof" also. We'll see what Keystone approves.

What I've learned about adding new roofs:
1) Keystone's roof decking is OSB. When you pull back the TPO membrane, it may take a portion of the OSB with it (or not). If it doesn't you can re-adhere and put new TPO down.

2) If the OSB comes off, you've got two choices - replace the OSB (expensive) or deck it in 1/8th lauan, which gets screwed to the OSB. There can be problems with the decking in launan, as it creates yet another surface to back out over time, but it is a fresh adhesion surface

3) Going over OSB that has been pulled out is probably not going to work out well, but at least one dealer has done it. Keystone will consider the results cosmetic as long as it doesn't leak and won't re-address it.

4) Not everyone wants do do Alpha Systems TPO, it's smooth on the bottom, and some think that it doesn't adhere as well.


My dealer indicated they'd over deck if the TPO doesn't detach well. They indicated they preferred a different TPO and would allow me to pay for a material that was thicker than the factory (good!).

I obviously still have concerns about the repair and we'll wait on Keystone's response, but I have 3 written opinions all calling for "new roof".
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Old 10-15-2015, 12:32 PM   #19
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Update:
Keystone has apparently approved a repair and is shipping my dealer new TPO. I assume this is a complete sheet of TPO (new roof). Approval time was < week, so that's pretty good turn around.

Now I keep my fingers crossed that the dealer can do a good job on a roof replacement....
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Old 10-16-2015, 01:55 PM   #20
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hey dcg, glad you got approved. I was late sending you a reply to your message.

I have seen a few keystone trailers now with a cut along the AC unit. I also repaired mine, like you, and got a cut through the repair strip along the AC unit. When the bubble pushes up against the AC mounting structure, it cuts through a lot of stuff. The bottom edge is fairly sharp.
When they put the AC units back in after the roof repair, make sure they seal up the plumbing in the attic space so the AC properly blows air towards the room vents and not into the attic.
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