F250 6.7 Diesel and Cougar 303RLS

[CANINE]

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

[xrated]

Originally Posted by CANINE

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

If your scale weights are correct and your truck weighs 8660, when you subtract that number from the GVWR of the truck, you are left with 1340 lbs for the payload number that you have available. The empty weight of the trailer is 9735...and probably in the real world, a bit more than that. Using that number and multiplying it times 20% will put the pin weight at 1950 lb. That is 600 lbs over your payload right there.....without the 5ver hitch weight being added in, passengers, anything and everything else you put in/on the truck. You will be grossly overloaded ......unless I am totally missing something here, but I am assuming that your truck weight is just the truck only, as the rear axle weight is way too low to have a 5ver hooked up to it.

[Logan X]

What Xrated said is correct. It looks like you will be over your trucks payload capacity due to the fifth wheel pin weight.

Typically 3/4 ton trucks, especially diesels (because the Diesel engine weighs about 1000 pounds more than a gas engine), can’t really handle a fifth wheel. This is because of the 10000 pound gross vehicle weight rating and the typically heavy pin weight sitting in the bed of the truck.

[mtofell]

Two numbers to keep in mind - what can the truck pull? (this is usually called "max towing"), what can the truck carry? (this is usually payload). Your truck can pull a house but can't carry much because, as others stated, the diesel engine eats up a bunch of your payload because it's heavy.

Ironically, the highest payload F250 would be a stripped 4X2 because every option adds weight and takes away from available payload.

I hesitate to even open this Pandora's box but, what the hell..... your axle weight ratings combined total well above the GVWR that you are calculating your payload from. The internet is FULL of arguments about legality and whether it's okay to forget GVWR (payload you are thinking of) and just abide by axle limits. I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you.

[Roscommon48]

forget the math...your truck is fine. You'll get a million responses but it'll work for you.

[JRTJH]

I "sort of reluctantly" agree with Matt's "go with the axle ratings and ignore the payload rating" for relatively new trucks. But, as "anything mechanical" ages, it also wears and the "breaking point of new steel, new hydraulic lines, new shocks, and other parts" decreases. So, what was "rated at 6100 pounds" when new, in 7 or 8 years of wear, 100,000 miles of wear, 7 winters of salt and 7 summers of wet/rust, will take their toll on the "overall strength before something breaks"...

So, a new truck might have a RAWR of 6100 pounds while that same truck after 7 or 8 years of use/abuse/careful care (we all treat our trucks differently) may not have that same "capacity before damage or failure"...

The OP's truck is already 8 model years old. Condition is honestly "unknown by any of us" so at best, going by the factory ratings may be "a far stretch for safety" or it may be that his truck has brand new axles under it ??? We just don't know....

The "scale weight" of his F250 is 8660. With a GVW of 10,000 pounds, that only leaves 1340 pounds of payload for all passengers, cargo, added equipment, fifth wheel hitch AND pin weight. The empty pin weight is about 600 pounds heavier than the maximum cargo capacity. THAT'S FOR A NEW TRUCK.... The actual mechanical condition of his truck might (or might not) meet those requirements....

I've got a 2015 F250 diesel with the same engine. My payload is nearly 2200 pounds and I tow a 30' Cougar XLite fifth wheel. The "advertised weight of my trailer is about 2500 pounds less than his and the advertised empty pin weight is nearly 700 pounds less than his. I have to "juggle/watch closely/leave things at home" nearly every trip. If my trailer was as heavy as his, I couldn't tow it with my truck and keep it "under the GVWR and payload limits. My truck would have ABSOLUTELY NO ISSUE PULLING his trailer weight, it's CARRYING the weight that's the issue.

Could I ignore the GVW rating and tow anyway? Yes, as long as I didn't exceed the axle ratings... However, I'm retired, financially secure with no desire to return to work to pay for taking chances, so for me, I'm not willing to jeopardize all that I've worked for to ignore the instructions in the Ford Owner's Manual and "risk it anyway"...

Others may not feel this way, that's OK, but I wouldn't suggest the OP tow his truck over the recommended ratings without fully understanding the potential risks involved "IF" something should happen "AND" he/his insurance company are sued in civil court...

[mtofell]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The "scale weight" of his F250 is 8660. With a GVW of 10,000 pounds, that only leaves 1340 pounds of payload for all passengers, cargo, added equipment, fifth wheel hitch AND pin weight.

I kind of missed this with my initial response - 8660# is crazy heavy for that truck without a bunch of stuff in it. I'd expect it closer to 7700# (which would then leave 2300# of payload before hitting the 10K GVWR). OP - what is accounted for in this weight?

My 2500 weighs right at 7000# (gasser) and with the hitch (225#) plus people (500#) and a few things in the bed (200#) I basically have 2100# in wet (loaded) 5th wheel pin to set into the hitch and stay under my 10K. My 5th weighs around 11,000# loaded and puts right at 20% on the pin.... so 2200# puts me right at (or a couple pieces of firewood over) my GVWR. My tires are rated at 3600# each and rear axle is listed at 6500# (but is reported to be the EXACT same as the 3500 in that year which is 7000#) so I don't feel I'm overloaded or dangerous.... but am right up against the max I should be carrying. When fully loaded my front axle runs about 4550# and my rear about 5550#. So, this puts we at the 10K GVWR but roughly 1000# under rear axle limit and potentially 1450# under actual rear axle limit (although this is assuming 7000# rear axle - even at 6500# I'm still 950# under. I believe the 6500# stock rating is due to the stock tires being the weak link AND it being a 2500 truck - I've upgraded the tires).

Because I am so close I am absolutely anal about running new-ish good quality tires and making sure they are properly inflated. I just know I don't have a huge amount of cushion. I am just a weekend warrior and don't get out nearly as often as I wish. If I were out more I'd certainly upgrade to a more capable truck. I just don't like using any tool at the upper limits of its ability.

OP - you're asking all the right questions... just keep researching and gathering info.

[notanlines]

At risk of taking this rat race into lap 37, let's assume (there's that word) that "GVW is the curb weight plus the weight of the passengers and cargo." How did the OP get 1900 pounds of passengers and cargo to leave such a small cargo capacity?
I also find it somewhat irresponsible to tell a person to go ahead and take the risks involved in towing while this much overloaded. Not cool...

[xrated]

Originally Posted by mtofell

Two numbers to keep in mind - what can the truck pull? (this is usually called "max towing"), what can the truck carry? (this is usually payload). Your truck can pull a house but can't carry much because, as others stated, the diesel engine eats up a bunch of your payload because it's heavy.

Ironically, the highest payload F250 would be a stripped 4X2 because every option adds weight and takes away from available payload.

I hesitate to even open this Pandora's box but, what the hell..... your axle weight ratings combined total well above the GVWR that you are calculating your payload from. The internet is FULL of arguments about legality and whether it's okay to forget GVWR (payload you are thinking of) and just abide by axle limits. I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you.

Combining the Axle Weight Ratings as a basis for the actual payload of the truck hasn't officially been used for years and years...maybe longer. Every single one of the truck manufacturers will clearly state in the truck's owner's manual to NEVER exceed ANY of the listed weight ratings.....GVWR, GCVWR, FAWR, RAWR, Payload or Cargo Carrying Capacity, and the tire load rating capacity. Manufacturers have teams of hundreds and hundreds of engineer type folks whose job is to engineer and come up with fitting all of the parts together that comprise the entire truck. This includes the components that make up the drive train, suspension, brakes, axles, etc, to come up with a number that will safely tow and haul loads based on engineering standards. In the end, they have determined the GVWR, Payload....etc, etc. and clearly state, "Never exceed any of the listed weight rating capacities". Will your truck fall to pieces and turn into a pile of junk if you tow overloaded? I guess depending on how overloaded the truck is, but certainly not a few hundred pounds over would be my guess. But doing that over and over on a continuing basis, in my opinion, is just asking for trouble....especially when you start getting into OMG overloaded. It's obviously up to the individual on how they feel about this, both from a safety and a reliability standpoint....and possibly a legal standpoint also. Myself, I've worked too hard my entire life for the past 50 years to see it all disappear right in front of me and therefore, I'm not willing to take the risk......from all three standpoints.

[xrated]

And just as a bit of information that may help (or stir more controversy), the order of progression as far as overload goes like this.

First in the list of being overloaded is when you reach the payload capacity that is listed on the door post on the driver's side of the truck. And remember, that number was determined as the "payload capacity" on the day the truck was built, i.e. fresh off of the assembly line. Anything and everything that is added to the truck after that time, will cause the payload number to be lower. A toolbox full of tools....a bed cover...a hitch (unless it came from the factory with it installed), spray in bedliner.

Once you have reached the payload capacity, any additional weight added to the truck obviously causes it to be over the Payload number..AND it automatically causes the truck to be over the GVWR.

Next in line in the order of progression is the Axle Weight Ratings...if you keep adding weight to the truck.

Then the last item in the progression is the Tire Load Capacity rating. This assumes that the tires are new and properly inflated to the psi number that is stamped on the sidewall of the tire.

GCVWR is also a factor, but normally, when towing a 5th wheel camping type trailer, you will exceed your payload numbers long before you reach the tow rating of the truck and the GCVWR of the truck.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CANINE

To the experts........am I figuring this correctly?

2012 F250 Crew Cab Lariat 6.7 short box
Steer Axle = 5000 (scale) Door shows 5200
Drive Axle = 3660 (scale) Door shows 6100
Gross Weight = 8660 GVWR 10,000
Curb Weight = 6787

2015 Cougar 303RLS High Country
Dry = 9735
Payload = 2365
GVWP = 12,100

Truck rated for 5th Wheel at 15,900.

Should be ok............correct.

My head is spinning on this, maybe I've read too many forums.

Thanks in advance

vic

Well CANINE, has two issues;
#1. with his listed weights he has only 1,340# to the listed GVWR of 10,000#

#2. Which is worse, he only has 2,440# before he exceeds his rear axle rating.

I tend to agree with Mtofell, 8,660# is heavy for a ready to tow weight for a 250/350 SRW.

It would help if Canine posted back what he has in the truck when scaled. Our old 2001 Ram weighed 7,800# ready to tow, that is with about 1,300# to 1,400# of people and stuff in it.

[CANINE]

Thanks for the info....btw, 5er information relates pin at 1705..... I guess I need to really weight the camper and get the 20% from the weight and not rely on documentation. Thanks again.... reading up on this there are so many directions.....

[CANINE]

Will be taking to scale today....to be honest, the weights were taken from like truck weights previously posted where I was reading. You would think similar vehicles would weigh closely similar......Thank you for the response and I'll confirm weights......lesson learned.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by CANINE

Will be taking to scale today....to be honest, the weights were taken from like truck weights previously posted where I was reading. You would think similar vehicles would weigh closely similar......Thank you for the response and I'll confirm weights......lesson learned.

The only way to know for sure is weigh.

Take the 5er and weigh with hooked up, and then drop and weigh again get individual axle weights for tow vehicle and the total axle weights for the 5er.

Let us know where you are after the scale trip.

[Ken / Claudia]

Just for comparing mine vs his. Mine is 1 ton, long bed, 2013. Unknown if his is a 4x4. Seems like all else is the same.
I scaled it right after the purchase at 8400 lbs, since I sprayed in a bed liner, got bigger tires, a rubber bed mat and soft bed cover. Last week it scaled at 8600 lbs. Both times full of fuel and only me inside.
The payload sticker shows 3178 lbs.

[flybouy]

" I am just a weekend warrior and don't get out nearly as often as I wish. If I were out more I'd certainly upgrade to a more capable truck. "

These type statements confuse and amuse me. Can anyone tell me how a hunk of iron setting on 4 rubber pads of road contact can tell that you " don't intend to drive more often"? Or how does it know you are only driving less than X amount of miles" I now I'm not the smartest guy around but I've never owned any vehicle with that type of intuition.

[JRTJH]

I had a 2013 F250 XLT gas truck before this diesel. If I remember correctly, the payload was either 3486 or 3684 ??? Anyway, somewhere slightly over 3400 pounds. We bought the current truck new, from a dealer in Detroit, "sight unseen" and I'd suspected we'd have "close to the same payload, minus about 400 pounds for the diesel.... That would have put it somewhere "around 3000 pound payload". That's "workable for our trailer"...

I was "super surprised and disappointed" to find the paltry payload sticker at about 800 pounds less than expected. I suppose there's a "significant difference between the "weight" of a supercab XLT and a crew cab Lariat...

So, depending on the "packages included", optional equipment and aftermarket additions, it's entirely feasible that the OP's truck weight comes in close to 8500-8700 pounds. We'd be there with a "bed tool box with 300-400 pounds of tools/junk.

[Logan X]

Not to stir up controversy, but anyone telling you to ignore any of the weight rating numbers is doing you a disservice. Anyone who makes statements like “you’ll be fine” or “your truck can tow it no problem”, while you are exceeding any weight rating, has never been sued by a greedy lawyer.

If you are in any type of accident, and an someone hires an accident lawyer, what do you think will happen if that lawyer can demonstrate you were overweight.

[rhagfo]

Originally Posted by Logan X

Not to stir up controversy, but anyone telling you to ignore any of the weight rating numbers is doing you a disservice. Anyone who makes statements like “you’ll be fine” or “your truck can tow it no problem”, while you are exceeding any weight rating, has never been sued by a greedy lawyer.

If you are in any type of accident, and an someone hires an accident lawyer, what do you think will happen if that lawyer can demonstrate you were overweight.

I go along with Logan on this, while I have towed well over my TV GVWR in the past, I knew it and was still within axle ratings.
To encourage those new to towing to tow over listed limits can set them up for a bad experience!
If one gets in an accident not their fault by rules of the road, they can still be taken to civil court if it can be showed that they were over weight limits.

[flybouy]

My DW was in a mva about 6 years ago (hit in an intersection). We hired an accident reconstructionist. I met him at the Ford dealership's body shop and helped him (held the dumb end of the tape measure) take the many, many measurements on sight line distances etc. He then "downloaded" the truck's (F150 KR). "black box" contents. Then it was off to the crash site where again I held the "dumb end". At the crash site the DW gave the investigator her story of what happened.

Long intro but with this info we met with him about 2 weeks later. The detail in his report amazed me. The exact time of impact, the speed of her truck and the vehicle that hit her. The exact weight and axle weights as well as outside air Temps and about 100 other measurements. I was waiting for him to tell what she ate that day. He also said all the info was "consistent" with her initial statement.

Point being, God forbid you get into a serious accident running "heavy". Any decent attorney will find out. And any decent attorney will dig into social media and if you have posted somewhere that you're "all good" with operating above the published maximums then you fall into culpability and responsibility because you can't plead ignorance, now you have evidence of knowing and deciding to ignore those operating maximum parameters.

JMHO, YMMV