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Old 03-03-2020, 11:50 AM   #21
6.2 Superduty
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Originally Posted by DCARLTON View Post
I remember in your initial thread that you had mentioned this and believe me as soon as I got home I looked for something like that. My dealer also thought this was an issue but in my case, my water damage wasn't near the wheel wells themselves - it was in a place that water should never be. However, they reported it to Keystone as water intrusion from wheel spray and Keystone made a request of my dealer that my dealer said they never do - We will pay you for an hours worth of time to take pictures. This indicated to the dealer there was something else going on.

I won't dispute your initial finding, but I also believe that if what they said was true, rocks pock marking the Darco covering and then water spraying into it, I have to believe there would be literally 1000's of these with issues; we all travel in the rain. Now I might buy into a bad batch of Darco maybe and it just happened to be at the wheels? That is just supposition on my part.

I will tell you that I did look at the underside of my Grand Design and there was a place near the wheels on the Darco that looked a little weak to me. Was it? I don't know but I did use some black Gorilla tape to cover the area that looked like it could be susceptible to water intrusion.

I think there is a lot more to this story from Keystone, just nobody really knows the truth except them.
The problem is serious enough that Keystone has opened a plant that does nothing but replace floors in light weight trailers.I was told by a product manager they are completing 5 or 6 a day.I
asked how many were there besides mine. 300. At least they acknowledge the problem and are making it right.
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:15 PM   #22
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That's interesting to hear. I know they wanted to take mine back to the factory January of 2019 and keep it for 6-8 weeks with 4 people working on it during that time. It would involve removing everything down to the floor, remove and replace the floor and then rebuild it.

We didn't like this option as our trailer was only 6 months old, we would have ended up with a rebuilt unit and that didn't feel right to us.

So yes, that is an indication that something major happened in the flooring system that required that type of response.
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:00 PM   #23
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When the floor problems are discussed on some forums owners state they have no problems. Well,I didnt have a problem either until it spread to the bedroom.
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:27 PM   #24
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When the floor problems are discussed on some forums owners state they have no problems. Well,I didnt have a problem either until it spread to the bedroom.
Yep, you didn't until you did.
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Old 03-03-2020, 08:20 PM   #25
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IMO Darco is an inferior product (just buying a new trailer with it). I have expressed my thoughts on that to my dealer, the GM, Keystone and the product designer for Keystone that chooses that product. I do believe they understand that it is not the best product but more importantly, to them, the cheaper product that can accomplish their goal. What does that mean to Keystone owners IMO?

I love their floorplans, pricing and my local dealer only carries them. Darco is a known thing to me so figure I can deal with it. GD has the same issues on some of their models along with others. If it's not Darco it's something else. IMO identify it, know it, fix it if you can...hopefully. When take possession of the new trailer this week it will go to the storage barn and I will perform the mods John spoke of for the wheel wells plus other items to be determined.
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Old 03-04-2020, 05:28 AM   #26
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I've owned a camper since 2003 and back then it had a Darco underside on the trailer. That material is used it a multitude of things including feed bags and is impervious to water unless it is compromised or not installed correctly. This is what also makes it bad as in the case of my 2018 Keystone, when moisture gets trapped inside of it, the moisture has NO WHERE to go because of the impervious nature of it.

IMO, the real issue comes down to installation, if done correctly, no issues, if not, that's where the problems occur.

Is a metal wheel well necessary? Not always but it would be a good thing as this would take out the possibility of a nick causing the issue. My dealer indicated they thought water was coming in from a bolt that secured the wall to the frame; this bolt was visible within 2 feet of the tire and their theory was water was wicking through this bolt into the floor and then the moisture had no where to go.

So if I were going to modify this area, I would make sure that any puncture, any connection, anything that is attached to the floor system is sealed well and then checked regularly. Heck people can't even check the caulking on their roof let alone this area above the tires - it's another maintenance issue. If any connection point's sealant fails, water is now potentially introduced to that area with no way out resulting in the same issue, a delaminating floor.
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Old 03-04-2020, 07:05 AM   #27
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The floor "engineering" has changed significantly in the past years.

My 1972 Jayco had a 1.25" marine plywood floor. The underside was sprayed with automotive "tar" undercoating. We owned that Jayco for 3 years and towed it all over Colorado, winter and summer. That floor was as solid when we sold it as it was when we bought it new. The problem with that "engineering style" was the extremely cold floors and ice buildup around the inside perimeter during elk season. There was ZERO insulation and other than being a wind break, the floor was "akin to walking outside".

The "RV engineering" evolved from that to "oriented strand flooring" made with wood fiber, waterproof adhesive and in single sheet style that spanned the entire trailer floor with one piece. It was also 1" thick, heavy and sturdy enough to last a "trailer's lifetime"....

Then along came an energy crisis, government mandates for fuel mileage, the requirement for lighter trailers to tow behind smaller, less powerful cars and trucks.

ENTER THE XLite and ULTRA Lite "trailer engineering". It's an "evolving process of material selections, adhesive technology, weight reduction and purchaser acceptability....

DID I MENTION EVOLVING TECHNOLOGY ???? Just like the Vega aluminum engine introduced in 1971 and failed in 1972, the Freon based air conditioning introduced in 1957 and "outlawed in 2009 and the "ignition key to start any vehicle that's now a remote control fob, the same evolution is still occurring in the automotive industry AND the RV industry.

Today's "ultra light RV floor system started as a "sandwich of 1/8" luan, 2" rigid foam and a top layer of 1/4" luan. It was too weak, so the top layer changed to 3/8" and in some models, 1/2" plywood, sturdy-floor or in some, still two or three layers of luan. Being extremely subject to water damage, the "solution" was to wrap the sandwich in a waterproof DARCO material.

OOPS: Darco isn't the "total answer" and RV evolution's next attempt was ADZEL to replace the luan bottom layer. A little better, but there was/is still water damage.

What's next ???? Who knows, but just as you can "bet your butt" that GM, Ford and Fiat/Chrysler are working to beat the competition by introducing "better vehicles next year" the RV industry is also working to "beat the competition.

For me, the issue is this: RV buyers don't care as much about floor longevity as they do about watching DVD's via Bluetooth in their RV. So, much of the industry's "evolution" is focused on staying ahead of the competition with "BS features" instead of the "unseen technology that doesn't sell"....

The RV industry delivers "what people want" not "what people need".....

Unfortunately, it's only after "people get what they want" that they realize, OOPS, this doesn't work like we thought" as they "squish on the soggy floor" on their way to watch that Bluetooth movie...…

Who's to blame??? Is it the industry that sells what we want or the customer that doesn't give a damn about the floor underlining and won't buy a trailer that doesn't have "bling"..?????

For me, sometimes, people are their own "worst enemy"..... Seems, at least to me, that it's only AFTER they buy the bling that the majority of the RV community cares about how the floor is made..... If they won't address the floor during the shopping phase, why would the manufacturer "make them take less bling" and risk the sale to the competition that sells a cheap floor AND more bling...….
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:25 AM   #28
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I requested a tour of the floor replacement plant and was denied.

I'd like to tour it. I would just like to see exactly how they are repairing them.


Evidently they replaced the floor on mine with the new composite floor they are using. It's on it's way back. Can't wait to see it more out of curiosity than anything. They did the entire floor, which means they must have removed the kitchen, shower, toilet, etc. They probably would have had to taken out the slide too.


So about 8 weeks from when they get it to when they return it.
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Old 03-04-2020, 08:53 AM   #29
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I'd like to tour it. I would just like to see exactly how they are repairing them.


Evidently they replaced the floor on mine with the new composite floor they are using. It's on it's way back. Can't wait to see it more out of curiosity than anything. They did the entire floor, which means they must have removed the kitchen, shower, toilet, etc. They probably would have had to taken out the slide too.


So about 8 weeks from when they get it to when they return it.
Do keep us posted on what you find. I'm sure most are very curious to know what you see, any evidence of where they "cut the walls" or "pulled the cabinets", or other evidence of how they disassembled the trailer to access the floor for repairs.

Also, once you've got the time, I'd be interested on whether you can see any differences in how the wheelwells are protected and whether there's any difference in how the DARCO is installed "outside the frame rails, in the "outrigger section" of the floor system.
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Old 03-05-2020, 06:26 AM   #30
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I was told they remove the windows and use straps to lift the walls off the frame. One would think they do a thorough job of sealing everything better than originally built
I read a post on another site about a 2020 with a stained floor. They were told the vinyl floor would be replaced. . To do this properly the walls would have to be lifted.
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Old 03-05-2020, 07:06 AM   #31
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I was told they remove the windows and use straps to lift the walls off the frame. One would think they do a thorough job of sealing everything better than originally built
I read a post on another site about a 2020 with a stained floor. They were told the vinyl floor would be replaced. . To do this properly the walls would have to be lifted.
The red comment is the part none (or few) of us have any clue about. Does Keystone "do it properly" or do they cut the vinyl flooring "at the wall/cabinet edge" and replace the subfloor with a more durable material, then install new vinyl/carpet and call it a day? Is there a "standard process" for every trailer that goes back to the factory? or do they have an inspection team that decides upon arrival whether the trailer gets "walls lifted" or "cosmetic repairs" ??? Hopefully we'll soon have some answers.

If they are "lifting the walls off the floor and replacing the entire floor structure" then that's likely to be a "permanent solution"... On the other hand, if it's a "cosmetic fix", then who knows what condition we'll find the repaired trailers in 2 or 3 years.
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Old 03-08-2020, 07:52 PM   #32
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Tfeatures" instead of the "unseen technology that doesn't sell"....

The RV industry delivers "what people want" not "what people need".....

Unfortunately, it's only after "people get what they want" that they realize, OOPS, this doesn't work like we thought" as they "squish on the soggy floor" on their way to watch that Bluetooth movie...…

Who's to blame??? Is it the industry that sells what we want or the customer that doesn't give a damn about the f
loor underlining and won't buy a trailer that doesn't have "bling"..?????

Fe to the competition that sells a cheap floor AND more bling...….
John you made the point perfectly and was the reason for my extremely skeptical attitude in my early posts towards Keystone and especially Thor. Unfortunately Thor doesn't have a monopoly on poor service or poor building quality. I also abhor all the bling that is prevalent and wish a solid RV could be built with less of the bling. If you go on a Northwood forum and hear comments abut the Arctic Fox trailer, some people complain they aren't "modern enough" not "up to date" Bull crap to them. NW builds solid trailer as first priority. If they built a 5th wheel toy hauler I would have bought one of them. When I was considering a "living type" 5th wheel, the Arctic Fox Silver Fox was at the top of the list. Hopefully the Raptor 356 will be trouble free or at least trouble "resistant" for me.

Might actually see it this week, we'll see.
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Old 03-08-2020, 08:05 PM   #33
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John you made the point perfectly and was the reason for my extremely skeptical attitude in my early posts towards Keystone and especially Thor. Unfortunately Thor doesn't have a monopoly on poor service or poor building quality. I also abhor all the bling that is prevalent and wish a solid RV could be built with less of the bling. If you go on a Northwood forum and hear comments abut the Arctic Fox trailer, some people complain they aren't "modern enough" not "up to date" Bull crap to them. NW builds solid trailer as first priority. If they built a 5th wheel toy hauler I would have bought one of them. When I was considering a "living type" 5th wheel, the Arctic Fox Silver Fox was at the top of the list. Hopefully the Raptor 356 will be trouble free or at least trouble "resistant" for me.

Might actually see it this week, we'll see.
For most "RV buyers" it's more about "DW doesn't want a dark interior" or "I won't buy a trailer without Bluetooth so we can watch movies from my phone" Unfortunately, for that kind of buyer, quality, floor strength, waterproof wheelwells just don't matter. It's only after they get the "light interior with Bluetooth that they start complaining that the floor feels squishy. That's when it's Keystone's fault (certainly not their fault) because they didn't consider the pitfalls....

I was talking to the owner of our local dealership yesterday at the local RV show. He was commenting how many people "raise hell because their RV roof is leaking and it's only 6 years old".... Their immediate argument is, "The damn roof has a 12 year warranty" !!! Even though the roof inspection/resealing is "clearly printed in the owner's manual" they seem to not care, as long as the Bluetooth works.....

Certainly, NOBODY on this forum would ever do that or feel that way, so it's all those "other people".....
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Old 03-09-2020, 09:51 AM   #34
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Occasionally the DW and I watch an RV show where they have a couple looking to buy an RV. We LOAO at people that don't like a certain model because:
The curtains are ugly, or the couch is too dark, or my favorite...the oven is too small.
Conversely the "likes" provide just as much entertainment":
Love the blue led lights, They think a jack knife sofa makes a nice bed, or the King size bed that clearly sinks down to the plywood under their 150 lbs is "great". The one that kills me is the "laundry chute" in the bedroom.

And of course they all want a unit that sleeps 10,a residential fridge, 60" televisions (2 inside & 1 outside), an outdoor kitchen, a full bath and a 1/2 bath, solar panels, Bluetooth and wifi everything, Enough storage for 4 Sean's of clothing and outside storage for 6 mountain bikes, 4 kayaks, and a 4 burner grill.

Oh, almost forgot, it must be under 27' long to fit in the state park and be towable with a Isuzu Rodeo. Yup, it's all Keystone's fault.
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Old 03-10-2020, 01:53 PM   #35
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Occasionally the DW and I watch an RV show where they have a couple looking to buy an RV. We LOAO at people that don't like a certain model because:
The curtains are ugly, or the couch is too dark, or my favorite...the oven is too small.
Conversely the "likes" provide just as much entertainment":
Love the blue led lights, They think a jack knife sofa makes a nice bed, or the King size bed that clearly sinks down to the plywood under their 150 lbs is "great". The one that kills me is the "laundry chute" in the bedroom.

And of course they all want a unit that sleeps 10,a residential fridge, 60" televisions (2 inside & 1 outside), an outdoor kitchen, a full bath and a 1/2 bath, solar panels, Bluetooth and wifi everything, Enough storage for 4 Sean's of clothing and outside storage for 6 mountain bikes, 4 kayaks, and a 4 burner grill.

Oh, almost forgot, it must be under 27' long to fit in the state park and be towable with a Isuzu Rodeo. Yup, it's all Keystone's fault.
A couple of things. When our 2018 Premier had the issue, I spoke with their managers in charge of the floor replacement process. Their stated repair was a 6-8 week time frame to totally disassemble and reassemble. Of course I wouldn't be there to make sure that happened and would have to #1 trust them, then #2 verify once I received it back. As I have stated here before, I wasn't comfortable with that on a 6 month old trailer and worked a deal for them to take it back.

#2, bling and warranties sell. Walk into a rv show and it's easy to see people get sucked in by all the features. That 12 year warranty? Only covers a defect in the material which is highly unlikely; it doesn't cover the wood underneath it, unless it was caused by a defect. But when the consumer hears 12 year warranty on the roof and then the roof fails due to a tear or not applying caulk or inspecting it, they are furious and blame the manufacturer. People today do not do due diligence.

Now, if you want some good laughs, head on over to Facebook and join the group for Alliance. Former Grand Design and I believe Heartland owners formed this new company. People give Grand Design owners a hard time for being so fanatical but those who are on the Alliance page are almost ridiculous in what they want in a trailer. To honor all of their wishes, the trailer would come in at 25,000 pounds, exceed 40 feet and need a 450 or 440 to pull it.

When we began looking to replace our 32 foot double bunk house, we wanted smaller. Well we landed on a 29.7 foot trailer weighing about the same as our original 32 foot trailer. We couldn't find one that would give us want we wanted/needed in a length less than 29.

Will be interesting to hear how this trailer comes back from Keystone. Hopefully they did what they said and did it right - pictures would be awesome.
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:21 AM   #36
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I had a few areas in my brand new 2020 Passport that the floor bubbled but only in the areas around the floor heater ducts and only after I used the furnace late in the season late October... they told me that it's normal due to expansion and contraction and since it seemed to be near the heater outlets it made some sense... they said injecting glue under the linoleum will not correct the condition and in fact would make it worse as that section of floor cannot move as it should...
Not sure if they were right or wrong but seemed to make sense considering the circumstances... Just thought I'd throw that in... for whatever it's worth...
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Old 03-11-2020, 11:41 AM   #37
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I don't think I ever included pics of mine from our 2018 Keystone 30ripr.

The first picture is underside about 3-4 feet from the exterior wall looking up after the Darcor was pulled away.

The second picture is from inside underneath the linoleum flooring.
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Old 03-12-2020, 01:12 AM   #38
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I had a few areas in my brand new 2020 Passport that the floor bubbled but only in the areas around the floor heater ducts and only after I used the furnace late in the season late October... they told me that it's normal due to expansion and contraction and since it seemed to be near the heater outlets it made some sense... they said injecting glue under the linoleum will not correct the condition and in fact would make it worse as that section of floor cannot move as it should...
Not sure if they were right or wrong but seemed to make sense considering the circumstances... Just thought I'd throw that in... for whatever it's worth...
Sarge..
That's the exact spot where my floor rotted away, it has nothing to do with expansion and contraction caused by the heater ducts. Think about it, if what they are saying is true, every camper that has a heater blowing accross the floor will have that problem. Where do the dealers get these ideas?

If your layout is the same as mine that area is above the wheel wells one of the prime locations for water intrusion soaking the foam floor eventually rotting it away. Just like mine did.

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Old 03-12-2020, 04:38 AM   #39
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I had a few areas in my brand new 2020 Passport that the floor bubbled but only in the areas around the floor heater ducts and only after I used the furnace late in the season late October... they told me that it's normal due to expansion and contraction and since it seemed to be near the heater outlets it made some sense... they said injecting glue under the linoleum will not correct the condition and in fact would make it worse as that section of floor cannot move as it should...
Not sure if they were right or wrong but seemed to make sense considering the circumstances... Just thought I'd throw that in... for whatever it's worth...
Sarge..
Early 2020.production had cardboard floor,later have the new hyperdeck. Iook underneath outside the frame rails.Hyperdeck has a slick.finish.
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