Thank you Polar Package!

[Steve S]

K I'm going under boys, if you don't hear from me in an hour or so it's because I froze to death and the coyotes are having me for lunch

[FullTimer]

Lmao, or you're frozen to the ground lol. Just look really good, for any air leaks, or frosted lines.

[JRTJH]

Here is only ONE example of the pitfalls of winter camping/full-timing in an RV. Not to say it's impossible, but nobody has succeeded in living in a Keystone RV for a "real winter" without significant preparations. You just can't "turn up the heat" and add a small electric heater and have a functional RV. Read through some of the problems faced by amosher and you'll see that if you don't get some winterization started pretty quick, you're going to either damage your RV or not be able to use it as a shelter. Either way, you're about to be "out in the cold" unless you start protecting your investment!!!

Read through some of his problems here:

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ghlight=frozen

[Steve S]

Well I dropped the coroplast, the Makita batteries don't like the cold too much!
So what I saw was a complete joke! There's nothing for insulation around the pipes at all. There's so many dead cavities that need insulation that it makes me wonder what Keystone was thinking!
So here's the plan: First thing I did was kill the power to the hot water and drained it, poured antifreeze in to the fresh water tank. I'm not going to mess around with hairdryers, I'm going to wait a few days till things warm up a bit.
When the pipes are thawed I'm going to drain everything, pressure test all the lines and check for leaks and repair anything not that I expect any leaks as nothing is cracked.
All the exposed pipes will be wrapped in the grey pipe wraps I picked up this morning.
All cavities will be filled and glued in with ridged insulation, all perimeter edges will be caulked.
The underneath of the floors and any other voids will be spray foamed if I can find my spay gun! I think my brother inlaw has it.
I'm also going to install a tank heater for the fresh. If anyone can point me in the right direction on this that would be helpful
I'm going to bail on skirting even though it's cheap as I'm pretty well protected from the wind.
Any Thoughts or suggestions about my plan?

[JRTJH]

I would seriously reconsider the skirting. Even if you use 3/4 rigid foam board and cut to fit, you'll stop the wind from blowing under your RV. An added benefit would be a "sort of vacuum bottle" affect in that any ambient warmth would be slowed from escaping. That's not the situation with "bushes a few feet away".

As for the line insulation. It's "OK" in that it will slow the cold from reaching your plumbing, but remember, it also prevents the warmth from reaching those lines making it harder to keep it "unfrozen" when things warm up during the day. Pipe insulation is a double edged sword in that it helps, but it also harms by the same amount...... Think about it, you're probably better off spending the time installing skirting rather than insulating each pipe.

As for tank heaters, we have a member who just finished adding heaters to each of his tanks last week. Here's a link to his thread. http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/sho...ht=tank+heater

[Steve S]

Thanks for the link it was informative.
I'm lost when you say that insulation will keep the warmth from reaching the lines
Skirting is a good thing for the wind, like let's face it wind and cold can freeze things up pretty fast. I really don't have that much wind and the hedges really do block it as when I sit on the other side having a smoke there's no wind at all.
I could see and will install it if the cold was to stick around and the temps dip.

[JRTJH]

The bushes will help keep the "wind chill" down and stop the wind from blowing under your trailer. the bushes do absolutely NOTHING to keep the little ambient temperature your RV is leaking through the underbelly contained. The purpose of skirting is not to stop the wind from blowing under your RV. It does that, but the purpose is to contain the heat and keep the area under your trailer as warm as possible. Bushes don't do that. If the underside of your RV is 35*F and the air is 10*F, the area under your RV is going to be 10*F and all the "stuff that's just laying there exposed" to use your description is going to be exposed to 10*F and probably freeze. With skirting, the warmth seeping out of the underbelly is contained under the RV and that 10*F will rise to 15 or 20 or higher depending on the amount of insulation in the skirting. That few degrees will help the trailer stay warmer and prevent much of the potential for freezing pipes. You said that last week when it was 15 you were comfortable inside. If you can keep the area under your RV at 15, you'll stay comfortable inside, but if the wind blows under it or even the "still air" under it is 10, you're going to lose that available heat and start freezing pipes.

As for not understanding how insulation works around pipes. It keeps the cold out when the temp is going down, that's the reason you're wanting to put it on. BUT remember that it will keep the warm air out also when the temps are going up. So when it warms up a few degrees, and your pipes are insulated, you will not benefit from the warming trend because your pipes are insulated and will stay as cold as they were. What that means is when the sun goes down and starts getting cold again, you're right back where you were and adding more cold to the pipes without ever benefitting from the warmth of the day. As that adds up, it makes keeping the "warm stuff in" hard to do because you've built a system to keep the cold stuff out.

[Steve S]

Yeah I hear what you're saying but what I'm doing is installing rigid insulation, wrapping the pipes and then spray foaming with an R rated foam that I spray basements with and in between joists.
I'm doing it this way as spraying over pipes and wires isn't a smart thing to do as it's a bitch to repair things as hacking through that stuff is a headache.
Covering everything and then foam spray and then sealing it all up with the coroplast will make it bullet proof and air proof. Also I won't have to worry about moisture in the hot and cold as it will be in a sense a solid chunk of foam.
This is the way I do things while building houses and I've never had a problem.
The way I'm doing it from reading the building codes here I'm good till -30 which I can't see that ever happening and if it does this thing has wheels

[FullTimer]

I see what John is saying insulation has it's purpose, to keep the cold out, but once pipes freeze, it's a b*tch to thaw them lol, because the insulation holds the cold in as well. So you still have to have heat from somewhere, warm water from a heater or trickling warm water to the farthest point. BUT insulation will buy you time, and keep things from freezing to a much deeper temp. I thought about the spray on insulation when I did mine and thought it would be so much easier lol. I think EVERY trailer should be done that way.

I like what you have planned. I would do as you say, let everything thaw out, make sure there are no leaks and let the foam gun rip. But be aware, something like the FW tank, will freeze if the temps are sustained for multiple days below zero. Thus the extra step of installing heating pads. The ability to have a full heated FW tank, no matter what the conditions are. As long as I have 12 volts lol.

I went with 120 volt heat strips on the black tank and the plumbing for the valves, since they would be plugged in constantly. But if we dry camped in severe weather more, I would have opted for 12 volt pads there as well.

I would go the extra step inside as well, and put the pipe insulation on the lines. One thought I had, was get a large enough size pipe insulation, to totally slip over both the cold and hot together. Then you could trickle the warm, and that would also keep the cold from freezing. I even went as far as cutting large squares of 3 1/2 insulation and closing the outer access doors with that tucked on the inside. Think about it, the wall is 2 inches thick, the access doors are 1/2-3/4 inch thick, hardly any insulating properties at all, especially around the HW heater door with all the plumbing.

I like you're determination and am looking forward to you're progress. Thanks John for referring to that thread, I was hoping the pics and progress reports would help others avoid what happened to me the first week we had the camper and The Storm hit lol. To say I was in panic mode was an understatement lol. I will say this, it's a totally different camper now, compared to then.

[Festus2]

Steve -
So, does all your preparation and improvements include skirting or not?

[mikell]

I would like to say out 2010 Alpine has been great, Until the perfect storm this year. During the -40 windchilll days a while back the water heater rusted thru and filled the crawl space with water that soon turned into a ICEBURG on the coroplast. It soon came crashing down and turned into a replication of Lake Michigan frozen to the trailer and to the ground.

Well after removing that mess in negative who knows how cold I had a bunch of bubble insulation and triple layered it underneath and have it held up with plywood because it was too cold for any tape or anything.The coro was froze to the ground and still is. So 2 sheets of plywood several 2 x 4's and various bricks and such sealing up the underside

Everything is on hold as far as finished repairs. New water heater was delivered from Texas in 2 days 4 days before Christmas installation took about an hour. Now the kitchen drain might be froze it goes down slow so tonight I put a fan in the basement blowing into the crawl space.

So my insulating and hole plugging worked for over 4 years till the water heater took things out. If spring EVER comes the final repairs will only take a day or two after work and I'll be adding more insulation just because I'm in there.

The worst weather we were going thru 100lb tank of propane every week but that was only for 2 weeks. Now they last about 2 weeks and whenever it gets near 30 the heat pump kicks in and we crank the heat way up.

They say warmer temps the end of next week WOOO HOOO!!! finally

Now about the 3 feet of snow that keeps moving around out there.

[FullTimer]

Ouch Mike. I was reading you guys are getting repeated bouts of poundings. 100# a week would break me lol, especially since the price hikes. The temps I'm seeing up there are way south of zero.

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by FullTimer

I see what John is saying insulation has it's purpose, to keep the cold out, but once pipes freeze, it's a b*tch to thaw them lol, because the insulation holds the cold in as well. So you still have to have heat from somewhere, warm water from a heater or trickling warm water to the farthest point. BUT insulation will buy you time, and keep things from freezing to a much deeper temp. I thought about the spray on insulation when I did mine and thought it would be so much easier lol. I think EVERY trailer should be done that way.

I like what you have planned. I would do as you say, let everything thaw out, make sure there are no leaks and let the foam gun rip. But be aware, something like the FW tank, will freeze if the temps are sustained for multiple days below zero. Thus the extra step of installing heating pads. The ability to have a full heated FW tank, no matter what the conditions are. As long as I have 12 volts lol.

I went with 120 volt heat strips on the black tank and the plumbing for the valves, since they would be plugged in constantly. But if we dry camped in severe weather more, I would have opted for 12 volt pads there as well.

I would go the extra step inside as well, and put the pipe insulation on the lines. One thought I had, was get a large enough size pipe insulation, to totally slip over both the cold and hot together. Then you could trickle the warm, and that would also keep the cold from freezing. I even went as far as cutting large squares of 3 1/2 insulation and closing the outer access doors with that tucked on the inside. Think about it, the wall is 2 inches thick, the access doors are 1/2-3/4 inch thick, hardly any insulating properties at all, especially around the HW heater door with all the plumbing.

I like you're determination and am looking forward to you're progress. Thanks John for referring to that thread, I was hoping the pics and progress reports would help others avoid what happened to me the first week we had the camper and The Storm hit lol. To say I was in panic mode was an understatement lol. I will say this, it's a totally different camper now, compared to then.

I went and bought everything today except the tank heaters, I never had time for that. I saw one that just drops in the tank but I'm not to sure how well that would work. The blanket one seems to make sense.
I won't be able to run a trickle of water as I'm not hooked to city water, maybe in the spring I'll trench a line in.
I'm still shocked about what I saw down below but I kind of expected to see that and I'm laughing about it now. At least with me taking care of it then it's done once, done right and I'll never have to worry about things when I go out for the day.
When I was trailer shopping they quoted me $1200.00 to spray foam trailers It always made me smile as there's about $45.00 worth of product that gets used.

[Steve S]

Originally Posted by Festus2

Steve -
So, does all your preparation and improvements include skirting or not?

Nope If 4 or 5 inches of foam which is thicker then the walls don't help then I'm moving back across the yard to the house

[FullTimer]

Originally Posted by Steve S

I went and bought everything today except the tank heaters, I never had time for that. I saw one that just drops in the tank but I'm not to sure how well that would work. The blanket one seems to make sense.
I won't be able to run a trickle of water as I'm not hooked to city water, maybe in the spring I'll trench a line in.
I'm still shocked about what I saw down below but I kind of expected to see that and I'm laughing about it now. At least with me taking care of it then it's done once, done right and I'll never have to worry about things when I go out for the day.
When I was trailer shopping they quoted me $1200.00 to spray foam trailers It always made me smile as there's about $45.00 worth of product that gets used.

Yup, when you do it yourself, you know what is what. I picked my pads up on Ebay, but you might have to forgo that if your weather window is short. If time allows, do take the extra steps, it will pay off in the longrun.

Eta if you can take some before and after pics, that would be very enlightening for sure.

[Steve S]

After washing dishes by heating up water and packing in water from the well I think my window is shorter then I thought as this is a PITA!
My cell has no flash, tried to snap a pic this am but it was too dark. I think the old lady has a flash on hers so I'll try with hers if she ever gets off of it!

[geo]

I'm surprised Fetus2 or JRTJH haven't referenced my posts from two years ago. Click on my "Geo"name upper left and search on "Posts started by Geo". About two years ago, you will find a long series of posts and pictures on insulating and upgrading the underbelly, plus installing and wiring tank heaters. The insulation was installed under the wiring and plumbing, and insulation was installed to isolate the plumbing from the frame. I also installed a fan and duct to move warmed air back to the fresh water tank area. Based upon the SOB I have now with similar insulation, I would say that Alpine would be good for temps down to -22C / -18F.

If you use Fiberglass or rock wool insulation, be sure to leave about a 4" (10cm) space between the insulation and top of the underbelly so humidity can escape.

Ron.

[Steve S]

Hi geo, I'm on my tablet and I can't do searches here for some reason but can on other sites, if you could post a link that would be great
-5 here, everything is frozen, trailer living at it's best
There's nothing like learning as I go, can't complain though as we're nice and warm and everything else is working great in the cold.

[Festus2]

Steve -
Come Sunday or Monday, it will be a lot "warmer" and everything that is frozen now will start to thaw and you should be "ok". OK, that is, until the next time the same thing happens but by now you should know what you need to do to make your RV completely winterized so you can live in it without having your pipes freezing up on you.

And there will be a next time. Count on it.

[Geoffwhite18]

The polar or arctic package on these is absolute bs. It's just another marketing scam to make you think you are getting a better product. We have a 2010 Montana and live in it in North Dakota while I'm working. The trailer in open air without skirting is only good down to about 20 degrees f. After that the water line going from the water tank to the pump freezes. Any colder and you are screwed. The under belly has a dinky 2"vent heating the tanks and nothing else. The underbelly is not insulated, so it doesn't matter how much heat you pump down there it's going to freeze. The pump itself is mounted where cold air from outside blows directly on it. I could go on and on about poor design issues with this thing.

Needless to say the only way our trailer has survived up here is with insulated skirting, heat tape, and using 2" insulation on the storage compartment doors. They have no insulation what so ever.