Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 

Go Back   Keystone RV Forums > Keystone Tech Forums > Keystone Questions
Click Here to Login

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 05-13-2022, 02:44 PM   #1
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Holding tanks and gvwr

does keystone factor in full holding tanks with its gvwr?…apparently Jayco doesn’t allow for that so you could theoretically be way over the axle ratings if you drive with tanks full for any distance.

i guess i assumed the trailer gvwr included full tanks but it looks like some manufacturers do it differently
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 03:34 PM   #2
NH_Bulldog
Senior Member
 
NH_Bulldog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Henniker
Posts: 1,054
On mine, there are two adjacent stickers. One is the Tire and Loading information sticker which says “The Weight of Cargo Should Never Exceed 2,030 lbs. or 921 Kg.

The other sticker is the vehicle information sticker which says “Cargo Carrying Capacity 800 Kg (1,764 lbs.) calculated with the freshwater tank full (cold 140 Kg, hot 23 Kg) and the wastewater tanks empty (mass of wastewater tanks full 227 Kg).

Do the math and you get an interesting result; the trailer tag gives me 42 Kg (93 lbs.) more capacity on paper than the tire and loading info tag does.

I don't ever travel with full tanks and my measured weights are well below the lowest figure listed, so I am comfortable. But you can easily see how someone just starting out can get confused, and that’s before we even talk about the tow vehicle!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	BD7026E0-7285-4557-8E85-71C9774E8704.jpg
Views:	3
Size:	260.5 KB
ID:	39728  
__________________
Rob & Amy
2019 Passport 240BH SL
2022 Ford F250 7.3L Godzilla Crew Cab 4x4
NH_Bulldog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 03:34 PM   #3
wiredgeorge
Senior Member
 
wiredgeorge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Mico, TX
Posts: 5,030
Jayco & Keystone are kissing cousins under the Thor umbrella. Not sure who decides how to come up with gross weight? Suspect the divisions do but who knows. I am sure wiser heads will offer their sage wisdom on this subject. If my black, gray and fresh tanks were full that would add almost 1000 lbs of gross weight on my little camper.
__________________
wiredgeorge Mico TX
2006 F350 CC 4WD 6.0L
2002 Keystone Cougar 278
2006 GL1800 Roadsmith Trike
wiredgeorge is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 03:40 PM   #4
NH_Bulldog
Senior Member
 
NH_Bulldog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Henniker
Posts: 1,054
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiredgeorge View Post
Jayco & Keystone are kissing cousins under the Thor umbrella. Not sure who decides how to come up with gross weight? Suspect the divisions do but who knows. I am sure wiser heads will offer their sage wisdom on this subject. If my black, gray and fresh tanks were full that would add almost 1000 lbs of gross weight on my little camper.
Full waste tanks are the very definition of gross weight!
NH_Bulldog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:05 PM   #5
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
if i ever order a new fifth wheel i’m gonna pay extra for upgraded axles and tires …seems like they really choose the bare minimum
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:12 PM   #6
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by NH_Bulldog View Post
On mine, there are two adjacent stickers. One is the Tire and Loading information sticker which says “The Weight of Cargo Should Never Exceed 2,030 lbs. or 921 Kg.

The other sticker is the vehicle information sticker which says “Cargo Carrying Capacity 800 Kg (1,764 lbs.) calculated with the freshwater tank full (cold 140 Kg, hot 23 Kg) and the wastewater tanks empty (mass of wastewater tanks full 227 Kg).

Do the math and you get an interesting result; the trailer tag gives me 42 Kg (93 lbs.) more capacity on paper than the tire and loading info tag does.

I don't ever travel with full tanks and my measured weights are well below the lowest figure listed, so I am comfortable. But you can easily see how someone just starting out can get confused, and that’s before we even talk about the tow vehicle!
Quote:
Originally Posted by wiredgeorge View Post
Jayco & Keystone are kissing cousins under the Thor umbrella. Not sure who decides how to come up with gross weight? Suspect the divisions do but who knows. I am sure wiser heads will offer their sage wisdom on this subject. If my black, gray and fresh tanks were full that would add almost 1000 lbs of gross weight on my little camper.

i see mine has the same sticker with a note that full waste tanks adds 950+ lbs…i always assumed it was included in the calculation…do toy haulers include a full tank of gasoline for the onboard tanks?
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:20 PM   #7
sourdough
Site Team
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: W. Texas
Posts: 14,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
if i ever order a new fifth wheel i’m gonna pay extra for upgraded axles and tires …seems like they really choose the bare minimum

When you do all that get disc brakes....you will not regret it.
__________________
Danny & Susan wife of 54 years
2019 Ram 3500 Laramie CC SB 6.4 4x4 4.10
2020 Montana High Country 331RL
sourdough is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:39 PM   #8
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
When you do all that get disc brakes....you will not regret it.
i’ve followed along when you had that done…Brent’s (Gearhead) also …seems like a nice upgrade
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:44 PM   #9
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
well i guess when someone boondocks with a bunch of solar panels,battery banks,inverters and solar chargers and then add in full tanks and everything else you bring on a camping trip you could easily be way over axle and tire ratings …besides whatever problems that can cause with your payload in your truck…wonder how many people that go to the scales ever go with full tanks? to see what the magic number really is
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:49 PM   #10
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 23,920
I don't see where there's any "confusion" about GVWR. Honestly, it's very simple.

GVWR is the gross vehicle weight rating. It's the maximum the trailer can weigh. Regardless of what "cargo" is onboard that increases trailer weight, when the weight gets to the maximum (GVWR) then you can't add more weight.

Start with empty tanks and you can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR"
Start wtih full tanks and you still, "can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR".

In the first situation (empty tanks) you have more "weight to add" but the GVWR is the same in both situations. Once you hit GVWR, you stop adding weight....

In this day and age of half ton trailers, heavy half trucks, enhanced towing packages, ultra lite trailers and all the other "smoke and mirrors", people get "sold an image" or "see what they want to see"....

No matter what weight you start with, empty tanks and lots of cargo capability or full tanks and reduced cargo capability, when you get to GVWR, your trailer stops being "Cinderella's carriage" and becomes "just another pumpkin"...

If the GVWR is 10000 pounds, and the empty trailer weighs 7000 pounds, you can add 3000 pounds to the trailer. Matters not whether it's 1000 pounds of waste water and 2000 pounds of recreational equipment or no waste water and 3000 pounds of recreational equipment, once you hit 10000 pounds, you're towing a pumpkin at GVWR.

Looks to me like there's a "sudden realization that hit those Jayco owners"... They found out that waste water is cargo.... DUH !!!!!
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 04:59 PM   #11
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
I don't see where there's any "confusion" about GVWR. Honestly, it's very simple.

GVWR is the gross vehicle weight rating. It's the maximum the trailer can weigh. Regardless of what "cargo" is onboard that increases trailer weight, when the weight gets to the maximum (GVWR) then you can't add more weight.

Start with empty tanks and you can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR"
Start wtih full tanks and you still, "can add weight "UP TO THE GVWR".

In the first situation (empty tanks) you have more "weight to add" but the GVWR is the same in both situations. Once you hit GVWR, you stop adding weight....

In this day and age of half ton trailers, heavy half trucks, enhanced towing packages, ultra lite trailers and all the other "smoke and mirrors", people get "sold an image" or "see what they want to see"....

No matter what weight you start with, empty tanks and lots of cargo capability or full tanks and reduced cargo capability, when you get to GVWR, your trailer stops being "Cinderella's carriage" and becomes "just another pumpkin"...

If the GVWR is 10000 pounds, and the empty trailer weighs 7000 pounds, you can add 3000 pounds to the trailer. Matters not whether it's 1000 pounds of waste water and 2000 pounds of recreational equipment or no waste water and 3000 pounds of recreational equipment, once you hit 10000 pounds, you're towing a pumpkin at GVWR.

Looks to me like there's a "sudden realization that hit those Jayco owners"... They found out that waste water is cargo.... DUH !!!!!


i agree but i’ve taken my fifth wheel to the scales a couple of times when i got it….i loaded up as suggested on the forum just like i was going camping and had my numbers to see if my truck was capable ( it wasn’t) …BUT i overlooked the fact that the full tanks were not included …so i’d really have to add the worst case scenario of an added 950 lbs to the rv which would translate to an extra pin weight of ???….your right it’s obvious when you think about it but i guess i didn’t
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 05:07 PM   #12
JRTJH
Site Team
 
JRTJH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Gaylord
Posts: 23,920
The "simple solution" to that is to take in what you are going to use (in the fresh water tank) and as you use it, it's transferred to the waste water tanks... There really shouldn't be any "extreme overweight by adding waste water" if the only water you have in the trailer is "just changing tanks"....

Now, if you're at a W&E site, it's easy to arrive with an empty FW tank, fill all the holding tanks and wind up "in a overweight status" but, just like flying an airplane or riding a motorcycle, situational awareness is vital... There really should be no "DUH, I didn't realize I was adding weight when filling my holding tanks"...

We routinely dry camp in remote areas. We go in "weighing close to GVWR" and we leave "lighter than we arrived". How? We leave the cans that food was in, we burn the firewood, we use some propane and we burn most of the paper products in the campfire. There's pit toilets, so we leave some extra weight there as well.... The only thing we add is several pounds of fish fillets or a couple of rabbits or birds in the freezer. Otherwise, we leave lighter even though the holding tanks are full.
__________________
John



2015 F250 6.7l 4x4
2014 Cougar X Lite 27RKS
JRTJH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 05:11 PM   #13
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,558
Well the really sad part to this having NOT watched the video.
Many new 5th wheels we have looked at in the 36’ to 40’+ range, come with payloads as small as 2,500#, which is pretty small considering wast water might be part of the 2,500#.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 05:22 PM   #14
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
Well the really sad part to this having NOT watched the video.
Many new 5th wheels we have looked at in the 36’ to 40’+ range, come with payloads as small as 2,500#, which is pretty small considering wast water might be part of the 2,500#.
mine has listed on the keystone site around 1900 lbs of cargo carrying capacity…but on the sticker it says around 1100 lbs cargo because the weight of the freshwater is included …if i had full fresh water and full wastewater i would have about 200 lbs of available cargo…it doesn’t say that on the keystone website when they advertise the cargo capacity which most people would assume is the weight of grills,bikes and odds and ends

edit: went to watkins glen state park …went in with full cargo and empty tanks , they have electric only sites with a water spigot centrally located that you use to fill your onboard tank..when i left most of my tanks were close to full but luckily it was a short drive to the dump station…wouldn’t be good to skip that till the next campground
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	2A53219A-9111-4EB9-9012-5F7906DD08FE.jpg
Views:	14
Size:	196.8 KB
ID:	39731  
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-13-2022, 06:10 PM   #15
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
mine has listed on the keystone site around 1900 lbs of cargo carrying capacity…but on the sticker it says around 1100 lbs cargo because the weight of the freshwater is included …if i had full fresh water and full wastewater i would have about 200 lbs of available cargo…it doesn’t say that on the keystone website when they advertise the cargo capacity which most people would assume is the weight of grills,bikes and odds and ends

edit: went to watkins glen state park …went in with full cargo and empty tanks , they have electric only sites with a water spigot centrally located that you use to fill your onboard tank..when i left most of my tanks were close to full but luckily it was a short drive to the dump station…wouldn’t be good to skip that till the next campground
Well our 32’ 5er has a 2,106# with full fresh water tank 45 gallons, and full propane 60#.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2022, 04:27 AM   #16
German Shepherd Guy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Norwood
Posts: 527
Watching the video you realize this was not about GVWR. Jayco tried to claim that carrying ANY water would void the warranty. Seems that the owner was traveling with about a 1/3 tank of fresh water when the brackets holding the water tank broke and it dropped down onto his black tank discharge pipe breaking it. New trailer and Jayco denied warranty because they said you should NEVER travel with any water. Even if you are going dry camping. Didn't make sense then and doesn't now and the owner persevered until finally Jayco honored the warranty. GRWR came in when one of the Jayco reps tried to use that as an excuse for not doing what was right.
__________________

German Shepherd Guy

2018 Keystone 26RBPR
2014 Suburban 2500, 6L with 3.73 rear

German Shepherd Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2022, 04:40 AM   #17
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by German Shepherd Guy View Post
Watching the video you realize this was not about GVWR. Jayco tried to claim that carrying ANY water would void the warranty. Seems that the owner was traveling with about a 1/3 tank of fresh water when the brackets holding the water tank broke and it dropped down onto his black tank discharge pipe breaking it. New trailer and Jayco denied warranty because they said you should NEVER travel with any water. Even if you are going dry camping. Didn't make sense then and doesn't now and the owner persevered until finally Jayco honored the warranty. GRWR came in when one of the Jayco reps tried to use that as an excuse for not doing what was right.
the video is what got me thinking about how they determine the gvwr…that was my point..i asssumed all full holding tanks were included…the same as how trucks payload is figured with number of passengers and full tank of fuel included depending on truck manufacturer
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2022, 05:08 AM   #18
bsmith0404
Senior Member
 
bsmith0404's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Las Cruces
Posts: 3,388
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
mine has listed on the keystone site around 1900 lbs of cargo carrying capacity…but on the sticker it says around 1100 lbs cargo because the weight of the freshwater is included …if i had full fresh water and full wastewater i would have about 200 lbs of available cargo…it doesn’t say that on the keystone website when they advertise the cargo capacity which most people would assume is the weight of grills,bikes and odds and ends
Just curious, what situation would ever require both fresh and waste tanks to be full? If you go dry camping, you head out with full fresh and empty waste tanks, when you come back, waste may be full, but fresh would be empty. I can’t think of any situation when both would be full. I think you’re over thinking this.
bsmith0404 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2022, 05:10 AM   #19
rhagfo
Senior Member
 
rhagfo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 3,558
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
the video is what got me thinking about how they determine the gvwr…that was my point..i asssumed all full holding tanks were included…the same as how trucks payload is figured with number of passengers and full tank of fuel included depending on truck manufacturer
What is really scary is that many larger (longer) 5th wheels have very small Payloads! I have been in a situation where I traveled home about 150 miles with full Black and Grey tanks, one black and two grey. I was more worried about the weight going over tall mountain pass than exceeding GVWR.
__________________
Russ & Paula and Belle the Beagle.
2016 Ram Laramie 3500 DRW 14,000# GVWR (New TV)
2005 Copper Canyon 293 FWSLS 32’ GVWR 12,360
Visit and enjoy Oregon State Parks
rhagfo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-14-2022, 05:13 AM   #20
jasin1
Senior Member
 
jasin1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Upper Chesapeake Bay
Posts: 3,556
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsmith0404 View Post
Just curious, what situation would ever require both fresh and waste tanks to be full? If you go dry camping, you head out with full fresh and empty waste tanks, when you come back, waste may be full, but fresh would be empty. I can’t think of any situation when both would be full. I think you’re over thinking this.
post #14.. when i left the campsite to head to the dump station …all three tanks were close to full ..i filled up fresh water again in middle of trip with a couple of hoses…it was about a mile to the dump station. just thinking it isn’t good to overload the tires and axles even for short distances…i guess i’m overthinking but if i had skipped the dump station until the next campground that wouldn’t have been good for the rv..
with all three full tanks i have about two to three hundred pounds of available payload…wouldn’t be a problem if the axles and tires weren’t on the very edge of minimum
__________________
2020 Cougar 315 RLS
2020 Ram 3500 6.7HO 4.10 Dually Aisin
jasin1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
tank

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3
Disclaimer:

This website is not affiliated with or endorsed by the Keystone RV Company or any of its affiliates in any way. Keystone RV® is a registered trademark of the Keystone RV Company.


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 03:43 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.