What next?

[notanlines]

And here I was all pleasant for a few men and women in our area needing good blue collar jobs. Little did I know what a low-bred company Ford is and how sad the entire area should be with such goings-on. I’ll be sure and spread the word!
Yes, this is posted with tongue in cheek....

[gearhead]

That hydrogen dream may not be a dream after all:
https://rbnenergy.com/start-me-up-us...dvance-in-2022

[gearhead]

The real reason oil & gas are here to stay....
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...e-To-Stay.html

[gearhead]

The breakthrough...
https://rbnenergy.com/tangled-up-in-...s-almost-green

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by gearhead

That hydrogen dream may not be a dream after all:
https://rbnenergy.com/start-me-up-us...dvance-in-2022

Seems like folks who want to vacuum up MY money are willing to do all sorts of wild projects to ingest my tax dollars. I am not surprised that it appears a lot of activity is going on. Inventors, Bell, Edison, Tesla, etc.; were these guys ingesting massive government handouts to invent stuff? Does giving away development money spur development or create a class of business designed to ingest the tax dollar?

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Seems like folks who want to vacuum up MY money are willing to do all sorts of wild projects to ingest my tax dollars. I am not surprised that it appears a lot of activity is going on. Inventors, Bell, Edison, Tesla, etc.; were these guys ingesting massive government handouts to invent stuff? Does giving away development money spur development or create a class of business designed to ingest the tax dollar?

Our original "inventors" were actually inventors spending their entire fortunes trying to chase/prove whatever dream they may have had. Now, we are at the highlighted portion of your comments. We have entire corporations soaking up taxpayer money claiming to be "inventors" and finding all kinds of new "things", whether new forms of energy or things we need to do to stop some sort of global catastrophe.....all "invented" by the paid inventors. What's sad is that those "inventions" ALL are invented to accomplish the goal of those that pay them with the outcomes predetermined regardless of truth or reality. Inventors need to "invent" on their own not living on government (read taxpayer) dollars, ie; handouts.

[gearhead]

^^^ I agree 100%. I'm just reporting, not endorsing government involvement.

[gearhead]

Choking off the money:
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...rt-US-Oil.html

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by gearhead

Choking off the money:
https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-G...rt-US-Oil.html

Perfect example of how the only fluctuations most politicians are concerned with are their "popularity polls".and the negative effects from special interest groups. It's the greater influencer, even over money unless they aren't or can't seek re-election. I have a great respect for the ones that stick to their constituents wants and needs despite the pressure, whether I agree with them or not.

[vampress_me]

Originally Posted by wiredgeorge

Seems like folks who want to vacuum up MY money are willing to do all sorts of wild projects to ingest my tax dollars. I am not surprised that it appears a lot of activity is going on. Inventors, Bell, Edison, Tesla, etc.; were these guys ingesting massive government handouts to invent stuff? Does giving away development money spur development or create a class of business designed to ingest the tax dollar?

I think, as Danny already hit on, the last question here asked by George is the kicker.

A homeowner we are working with (I’m in residential construction) wanted a solar array at their house. The homeowner asked every one of the solar companies they were looking at if any of them has an array installed at their houses - not a single one said they do. So, we as the peons paying for the projects are supposed to buy into a “theory” with a significant amount of money and a long break even timeframe (it was 20 years before it would pay for itself assuming nothing broke on it in the meantime), while those peddling the “investment” won’t even install one at their own house because it isn’t worth the expense.

[slow]

Same types of comments were probably made when the car first came about and most were still using a horse and buggy.
For certain, our tax dollars are directed in ways we do not always support, but change will happen. We just do not know when.
At least we are entertained sharing our complaints.

[Village Idiot]

I don't disagree with many comments about how our tax money is being spent but I will add a plug for solar. We put in a solar array December 2018, latest figures show at the current rate it will pay for itself in 7 years or less. I'm not an environmentalist, but do watch my $ carefully, for us it was a financial decision and it is working out very well so far. We have a large yard so it didn't have to go on the roof, likely wouldn't have done it if it did.

[mikec557]

2¢ more for solar, if and only if, it's NOT financed nor leased.

We put it on the rooftop in Escondido CA. Paid cash. System was sized properly and the payoff, AKA breakeven point, was just over 7 years. That was based on SDG&E never increasing the rate for 7 years. You know they will. That would have made the breakeven even less than 7 years. With a 20 or 25 year lifetime system, that would have made money. But we sold the house and left the state.

In a house now with a leased (from Solar City) solar system. We bought the house with 5yr left on a 15yr lease. Now there's only 3yrs left and I just did the calculations. No gain whatsoever. At the end of the lease I'm going to tell them to take it off my roof or abandone it in place. If you have to make payments, you don't gain anything. I knew that when we bought the house and it was still worth buying the house. But with two years of usage I now have mathematical proof.

I'd prefer to be disconnected from the grid. Forget their buying your excess (at a too cheap rate). But that only works in an area with the right climate.

[sourdough]

[QUOTE=slow;480146 Same types of comments were probably made when the car first came about and most were still using horse and buggies. For certain, our tax dollars are directed in ways we do not always support, but change will happen. We just do not know when.
At least we are entertained sharing our complaints.[/QUOTE]


I am absolutely certain that when the first autos came about there were any number of things those "new fangled" inventions were called, including unrealistic. The huge difference is that the invention of the auto was paid for by the inventor and a market developed for it as it became obvious it was a better way to go by the inventor. The inventor "envisioned" the improvement then spent his money (or investors) based on his faith that he would be rewarded and was.

Not so with the push for replacement of gasoline engines. A "need" was invented then the taxpayer has been forced to fund the r&d on some solution to fill the invented need. The push for these new "inventions" to fulfill the invented problem was not borne of a true need from the populace so there is no groundswell of support (or $$) to fund those advancements, hence the taxpayer dollars are spent to fund projects to push development of things that someone other than the taxpayer wants/needs. The elimination of every gas engine in the U.S., or the world, will not stop climate change....it is going to continue whether man is here.....or the dinosaurs - again. If those magnificent scientists can do such miraculous things maybe they could start with something simple like stopping hurricanes or tornadoes - and no, elimination of gas engines won't do that either.

But as mentioned, it is entertaining to read some of these posts.

[JRTJH]

I haven't done a lot of "calculating" on the real costs tied to buying a solar system, but seems to me that financing it (at a reasonable interest rate) would likely be more beneficial than paying cash. Wise investing will double money in 5-7 years. So, at a "first glance", buying a $15K system and paying cash would, at the end of 7 years, cost (in lost investments) $30K. Financing that same $15K at 2%, would cost about 1087 in interest, plus the profit from investing the initial $15K rather than paying cash. So, at the end of the 7 years, if you refund the total cost of the loan, $16,087 from the returns on the investment, you'd be left with right at $14K in investment funds over the cost of paying cash and then trying to recoup and invest at $200/month over that same 84 months.....

I've found, over the years, that it's "cheaper to use someone else's money when the interest rates are low and conversely, it's cheaper to use my own money when the interest rates add up to me spending more to borrow that same amount.

I'd suspect that the solar panels are going to produce the same amount of energy whether they're financed or paid for, so their performance doesn't enter into the "do it regardless" logic tree.....

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by mikec557

2¢ more for solar, if and only if, it's NOT financed nor leased.

We put it on the rooftop in Escondido CA. Paid cash. System was sized properly and the payoff, AKA breakeven point, was just over 7 years. That was based on SDG&E never increasing the rate for 7 years. You know they will. That would have made the breakeven even less than 7 years. With a 20 or 25 year lifetime system, that would have made money. But we sold the house and left the state.

In a house now with a leased (from Solar City) solar system. We bought the house with 5yr left on a 15yr lease. Now there's only 3yrs left and I just did the calculations. No gain whatsoever. At the end of the lease I'm going to tell them to take it off my roof or abandone it in place. If you have to make payments, you don't gain anything. I knew that when we bought the house and it was still worth buying the house. But with two years of usage I now have mathematical proof.

I'd prefer to be disconnected from the grid. Forget their buying your excess (at a too cheap rate). But that only works in an area with the right climate.

I don't have solar on my house but my little brother had it installed. He paid quite a lot for it but told me recently that it was worth it. Didn't give an exact timeframe for payback, and he has had it now for several years, but said "in a few years". He lives in a sunny region so it works I suppose. He had it all placed on his roof. I told him you couldn't pay me to put all that junk on my roof, it just looks terrible. Funny thing, his HOA made him pull up trees/plants he planted when he built because they didn't fit or look right but they let that mess on the roof go??

[Badbart56]

Let's take a moment to look at the "real world" resource availability for all these electric vehicles with the current infrastructure. Not everyone has a garage.

Picture if you will the boroughs of New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania. Where everyone parks their vehicles along the street/curbs. How is that gonna work?

And will the neighborhood power grid even be able to handle a charging system for every home/apartment/housing projects? I can see where this could be considered discriminatory given:

(1) the affordability of said electric vehicle compared to economy class fossil fuel vehicle, (think KIA) and

(2) availability of charging ports for those living in apartments, trailer parks and other low cost or subsidized housing.

I have read articles written by engineers saying the current infrastructure would not allow for a charging station for every home along a residential street without major upgrades. Who's going to pay for this? I think we all know.

And being stationed in California back in the 70's, I can tell you, the air is MUCH cleaner out there now. The improvements made to internal combustion engines, both gas and diesel, have made significant strides!

Political statement or not, climate change is just another way to separate us from our money. The government is going to have to subsidize the electric vehicle monster in order to force it on us, much like wind power. Without subsidies it wouldn't exist.

[vampress_me]

I guess I should have added some onto my other post. This solar array cost was over $30,000 (remember how much prices have gone up the past 2 years in construction). With, of course, the excess electric being bought back by the electric cooperative, at a not very impressive rate. Plus, this apparently would not be able to produce enough electricity to run the whole house on. So, I will confess to being slightly confused as to the reason for buying into the expensive solar array if you would still be dependent on the electrical grid. But, eh, to each their own.

Also, found out from a different house/ electrician on a project that if an electric car charger (the faster/ ?better? dedicated charger) is installed, not just a regular outlet, a second panel is many times required due to the elec requirements of the charger. And, many existing homes here, in MN anyways, are woefully inadequate if a charger is wanted by the owners. So, the cost to install a charger and new panel on an existing house is significant, especially if that house only has a 100amp panel like many houses here that were built pre-90’s.

So, for the electric car end of things - It may sound/ look all happy and bright, but our infrastructure is very inadequate for the reality of everyone having an electric car. Especially those living outside of large cities or in colder climates.

[flybouy]

Several years ago (I think about 6 to 8) some solar panels began appearing in our neighborhood. The houses I'm talking about are your "average" two story, 4 bedroom, 3 1/2 bath with attached 2 car garage. Most roof lines are exposed to mid day sun. They were cold calling and selling as "paying for itself" and "The state of MD and the federal government are requireing that x% of electricity be generated by renewable energy by xx year". He also ephasisesed the available tax credits. I told the salesman to give me the pamphlet and I'd call if interested.

After doing some research I found out the company doing the installs were financing at a high rate and touting how it would pay for itself. The selling company was touting an ROI of.a few years. It took aLOT of digging at the time to get the info on the panels they were using. Long story but after much research including weather trends the ROI for us would be around year 14. No thank you.

Some folks bit and while the crews were in the neighborhood there was a young salesman buzzing up and down the hill we live on riding a Segway. This young man was way past a "high pressure" salesman. He would pound on door after ringing the doorbell like he was auditioning for the show "Cops". Twice I chased him off the property and promised to do so with force. I called the company and threatened to pull out a peace warrant for harassment with a 300' barrier. That finally stopped his visits.

Our neighbor across the street had solar installed. She was complaining this summer that she "had to get the trees topped out" in the yard. It was in her contract that she must keep the trees from shading the panels. Was this just that company or is it indicative of the industry? I don't know or care. We have trees. We have clouds, and rain and snow. We don’t live in the desert, on the great plains, or in the sunny south. Solar panels are like any technology improving but just aren't efficient enough yet.

Electric vehichles? Well I recently heard that in Baltimore City the average income is $45k/year. The "average cost" for an EV is $53k. Now many of these folks have no or very poor credit. Live in row houses built 200 years ago with no parking anywhere near their house. There are huge numbers of these residents that rent a house or live in an apartment.. They often struggle to get a working furnace or toilet. These conditions are not unique to Baltimore.

Last night we passed our local Warmart returning from our DD's house. I jokingly pointed at the store as passed by on the highway above. I said "look honey, they decorated the EV stations for Chrismas". Each one (there's 8 or 10) had large bright green lighting sort of looking like a candy cane if your creative. Here’s the point, it was Christmas Eve. The parking lot was full, well except for those brightly illuminated charging stations. They were empty. I dunno, they installed those a couple of years ago and I've yet to see a vehichle plugged in. Maybe EV owners prefer Target?

So while EV and solar may work for you it just isn't practical or cost effective for me at this time. If you choose to spend your money to feel good or "do your part to save the world" then that's your prerogative. I personally think that amount of money is better spent on the humanitarian projects where doctors go around the world restoring peoples vision or operating on children to fix cleft pallets, spinal or heart deformities. Perhaps one of those kids can grow up and find solutions to these global issues. Just my opinion.

[chuckster57]

A few years ago, we looked in solar through sun city. They were adamant that it would pay for itself and I would have a “steady” electric bill. I would generate more than I used in the summer and I would earn “credit” that would help pay the bill in the winter BUT I would still have an energy bill every month. When I asked about how many panels, the salesperson said only enough to “offset” my average monthly bill. I asked about extra panels and was told that wasn’t part of the plan. Then I asked what happens in 20 years when the lease is up? Didn’t really have an answer, so here I am with no solar, and since replacing my 20 yr old rooftop heat/air unit my average bill is LESS than it was.