30amp shore power causes trailer to shock you

[hankpage]

Originally Posted by bjstager

To update everyone after hours of service. We are not near a keystone dealer here in Ehrenberg, AZ on this trip so we had to get mobile service and hope that Keystone does the right thing. We isolated the issue and found that the line running from the shore power plug to the breaker box must be compromised. We had a new line ran and everything works fine. Where the line runs it is under cabinets. Very likely a clamp or screw must have compromised the line. After 2500 miles and multiple hookups it finally must have melted to compromise the line. We could not get into the underneath underpinning so we made the call to run a brand new line and 100% fix.

Guess the cabinet installers didn’t realize that the screws they used that are 1/2 to long in several spots in the upper cabinets are likely the same that installed to the floor and likely comprised the line.

Thank you all for everything and hoping with this knowledge someone else with this issue will now know.

Glad to hear that you and family are no longer in danger. Good luck with your dealings with Keystone. I would try to get your dealer to contact them first. JM2¢, Hank

[Ken / Claudia]

Just for information, at work my normal patrol vehicle came on line last Nov.
it is driven daily. 3 weeks ago most of the electric stuff failed. Ford said it was a screw into a wire harness. A screw that was installed over a year ago.

[FlyingAroundRV]

Originally Posted by bjstager

To update everyone after hours of service. We are not near a keystone dealer here in Ehrenberg, AZ on this trip so we had to get mobile service and hope that Keystone does the right thing. We isolated the issue and found that the line running from the shore power plug to the breaker box must be compromised. We had a new line ran and everything works fine. Where the line runs it is under cabinets. Very likely a clamp or screw must have compromised the line. After 2500 miles and multiple hookups it finally must have melted to compromise the line. We could not get into the underneath underpinning so we made the call to run a brand new line and 100% fix.

Guess the cabinet installers didn’t realize that the screws they used that are 1/2 to long in several spots in the upper cabinets are likely the same that installed to the floor and likely comprised the line.

Thank you all for everything and hoping with this knowledge someone else with this issue will now know.

Thanks for keeping us updated.

If you haven't already, you should get a wired in EMS. That would have done two things 1) It would have detected the fault and 2) would have shut off the power to the rig, keeping you and the electricals safe.

I have mine wired in right behind the distribution panel. I thought about wiring it in closer to the hookup point which is on the opposite side of my trailer. After your experience, I'm glad now that I did it the way I did. If I get a break in the wire between the hookup point and the EMS, it will detect it. I'm not so sure it would detect the break downstream.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by FlyingAroundRV

Thanks for keeping us updated.

If you haven't already, you should get a wired in EMS. That would have done two things 1) It would have detected the fault and 2) would have shut off the power to the rig, keeping you and the electricals safe.

I have mine wired in right behind the distribution panel. I thought about wiring it in closer to the hookup point which is on the opposite side of my trailer. After your experience, I'm glad now that I did it the way I did. If I get a break in the wire between the hookup point and the EMS, it will detect it. I'm not so sure it would detect the break downstream.

As a former electrician I say that the EMS should be mandatory from the manufacturer. I already have a Progressive hard wired 50 amp but will be switching it for the Hughes autotformer AND Power Watchdog 50 Amp Smart Bluetooth Surge Protector with Auto Shutoff – Hardwired Version. They are bringing out a combination unit hopefully in the spring and I am waiting for that. My rig has already been saved once from a lightning strike.

[cliff]

It ain't the trailer or something mis-wired in the trailer. It's the pedestal. Especially since it happened the way you describe. You have a ground in the pedestal that is hot and energizes the frame of your trailer. BTW I am an electrical engineer.

[bjstager]

It was the trailer. New line ran from plug to breaker box and issue fixed. Having dealer run the permanent one as what we had to have done was to “get us through”. And ran through a cabinet since we couldn’t pull the entire under belly out to run line.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by cliff

It ain't the trailer or something mis-wired in the trailer. It's the pedestal. Especially since it happened the way you describe. You have a ground in the pedestal that is hot and energizes the frame of your trailer. BTW I am an electrical engineer.

They tried several pedestals. They have fixed the problem by running new wires in the trailer, it was a new unit and the cable from the entrance to the distribution panel went under some cabinets and someone drove a screw through the cable.

[ubetcha]

Yes it's called a "hot skin" condition. I ran into this before. Recommend watching this YouTube video. https://youtu.be/Y8h64X33aKg. Or if that doesn't work, search YouTube for " Hot Skin RV proximity test full scale" by Mike Sokol, how to seminars. I had contacted him by email and he actually called me one evening and talked about it and why it happens. The ground fault is open in the pedestals in that system and there is a fault in the wiring looking for a ground as i understand it.. Mike Sokol does know what he's talking about as he is an electrical engineer and is an instructor in a college or tech school out east somewhere. I don't recall where though.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by ubetcha

Yes it's called a "hot skin" condition. I ran into this before. Recommend watching this YouTube video. https://youtu.be/Y8h64X33aKg. Or if that doesn't work, search YouTube for " Hot Skin RV proximity test full scale" by Mike Sokol, how to seminars. I had contacted him by email and he actually called me one evening and talked about it and why it happens. The ground fault is open in the pedestals in that system and there is a fault in the wiring looking for a ground.. Mike Sokol does know what he's talking about as he is an electrical engineer and is an instructor in a college or tech school out east somewhere. I don't recall where though.

There are 2 kinds of hot skin. One is caused by parking under or near high power lines. This is a harmless but scary to the uninitiated caused by induced currents. The other is life threatening and is caused by a wiring error or fault making the frame of the trailer electrically hot.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by sonofcy

They tried several pedestals. They have fixed the problem by running new wires in the trailer, it was a new unit and the cable from the entrance to the distribution panel went under some cabinets and someone drove a screw through the cable.

Yup, there are clearly is a wiring problem in the trailer. But I can't help thinking that the pedestal is also at fault.

The skin is almost certainly grounded, that is, connected to the frame which has a hard ground on it. Power in the skin should return to the pedestal over the ground pin. This should have triggered a GFI or otherwise popped a breaker.

Now, if the pedestal's ground was disconnected, then the skin would've stayed hot and the danger condition would be exactly as you described. Also, that would explain why you only saw this condition at one pedestal and never in other places. What it wouldn't explain is why the trailer wouldn't immediately pop the breaker on every other pedestal, unless the short was really really high resistance.

[ubetcha]

Originally Posted by sonofcy

There are 2 kinds of hot skin. One is caused by parking under or near high power lines. This is a harmless but scary to the uninitiated caused by induced currents. The other is life threatening and is caused by a wiring error or fault making the frame of the trailer electrically hot.

The Hot skin condition I encountered was the camper was electrified. All the campers on the particular electrical feed were hot( except the fiberglass sided ones. But anything metal was hot on these). everything was ok until the last camper hooked up. Camp ground techs found that the water heater element in that camper was shorted. And with no ground fault circuit, the only ground that was available was through the campers. when the campers were touched the ground was completed through who ever touched their campers. To make thing worst, it had rained and the ground was wet. luckily no one was hurt. With the water heater circuit breaker turn off in the offending camper, the shocking situation was gone.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by LHaven

Yup, there are clearly is a wiring problem in the trailer. But I can't help thinking that the pedestal is also at fault.

The skin is almost certainly grounded, that is, connected to the frame which has a hard ground on it. Power in the skin should return to the pedestal over the ground pin. This should have triggered a GFI or otherwise popped a breaker.

Now, if the pedestal's ground was disconnected, then the skin would've stayed hot and the danger condition would be exactly as you described. Also, that would explain why you only saw this condition at one pedestal and never in other places. What it wouldn't explain is why the trailer wouldn't immediately pop the breaker on every other pedestal, unless the short was really really high resistance.

From the OP, 'We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all'. That pretty well rules out A pedestal issue.

[Sarge2]

Dang man, that's a lot of things on one rig... but having been an Auto tech and a service director at auto dealerships for years, I've seen worse coming out of a /the factory.. I don't believe that these TT assembly lines are much different that the auto industry... good days, bad days, people who care and others who could care less and the drinking and drug issues as well... all the makings of a poor quality and workmanship... I hope you can get these things squared away by the time the warranty expires... Good luck... Sarge

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by sonofcy

From the OP, 'We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all'. That pretty well rules out A pedestal issue.

Yeah, I got that... but also:

"We traveled for 5 days and no issues. Got to this site and it happened."

Hard to reconcile these two. One possibility is that the entire grounding system is plotz in that particular campground. Certainly it could be that it took five days for the screw to work through the insulation, but still doesn't explain why the skin charge wasn't diverted to the outlet ground.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by LHaven

Yup, there are clearly is a wiring problem in the trailer. But I can't help thinking that the pedestal is also at fault.

The skin is almost certainly grounded, that is, connected to the frame which has a hard ground on it. Power in the skin should return to the pedestal over the ground pin. This should have triggered a GFI or otherwise popped a breaker.

Now, if the pedestal's ground was disconnected, then the skin would've stayed hot and the danger condition would be exactly as you described. Also, that would explain why you only saw this condition at one pedestal and never in other places. What it wouldn't explain is why the trailer wouldn't immediately pop the breaker on every other pedestal, unless the short was really really high resistance.

The ground and neutral are NOT bonded in an RV. It's considered a "sub-panel and the two remain separated. The "bonding" occurs in the campground pedestal. That's why the EMS will "fault out" when an unbounded generator is connected to the RV.

What you're suggesting is how a "house is wired not how an RV is wired"...

Any staple or screw through the neutral (inadvertently during manufacture) would "bond the ground and neutral" in the trailer and produce a "hot skin condition".....

http://beamalarm.com/Documents/120_vac_in_your_rv.html

[ubetcha]

Originally Posted by sonofcy

From the OP, 'We have moved to 3 sites now and same issue on all'. That pretty well rules out A pedestal issue.

It still may be a pedestal issue if the 3 sites are on the same electrical circuit or leg or what ever the name would be. In my situation, there were 6 sites on that circuit, there fore all 6 sites were effected. The OP didn't state if they were just moved to an adjacent site or moved to a spot somewhere else in the camp ground. I guess more info is needed.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The ground and neutral are NOT bonded in an RV. It's considered a "sub-panel and the two remain separated. The "bonding" occurs in the campground pedestal. That's why the EMS will "fault out" when an unbounded generator is connected to the RV.

What you're suggesting is how a "house is wired not how an RV is wired"...

Any staple or screw through the neutral (inadvertently during manufacture) would "bond the ground and neutral" in the trailer and produce a "hot skin condition".....

http://beamalarm.com/Documents/120_vac_in_your_rv.html

I'm not following up to argue, but to understand.

I already understand that neutral and ground aren't bonded in a RV. My suggestion doesn't rely on that.

The only assumption I am making is that the RV skin is bonded somewhere to the ground conductor, whether through the frame or whatever. If so, then any power on the skin should find its way to the ground prong. I assume this from the very history of the ground prong, which was to safeguard the cases of mechanisms (like motors, toasters, and the like) from ever being "hot." (Yeah, I'm old enough to have grown up with two-prong plugs, and roundish TV sets that "tickled" me when I was barefoot.)

Now, if RV "cases" aren't grounded that way, then I'm way off, but I'd be really interested to know why someone thought that was a good idea.

[JRTJH]

Any ground, whether on an RV, a drill (the old 3 wire/3 prong metal case tools) or any other device that's "grounded" is only as safe as the highest resistance on the ground circuit.

For instance, if the ground is actually 10 ohms (it should be 0 ohms) and you're standing in water (making YOUR ground circuit "less than 10 ohms" then any electrical charge will seek the "path of least resistance" and you'll become the ground.

There are a lot of "ifs" and "ands" and "excepts" in RV electrical circuits. Your assumption that the RV chassis is grounded and the skin is grounded to the chassis, "SHOULD" mean that the skin can't become hot.... That is: IF the ground circuit from the RV, through the shore power cord, to the campground pedestal, then through the campground wiring back to the campground "ground stake" is less resistance than "you and your wet feet" as you touch the trailer skin..... That's why the trailer neutral and the trailer ground are separate and not bonded together.

Typically, it's not a problem, but with a direct short from the trailer wiring to the trailer ground, there's no "guarantee that the campground "ground circuit" is going to be less resistance than your body... That makes the "hot skin" a dangerous condition, even though the trailer skin is "grounded to the trailer ground (which may or may not be less resistance than your body).....

[SC GT Yellow Jacket]

Glad you were able to find the problem and resolve safely.

Can you share the brand and model of your Keystone? Was it a TT or 5er?
Thanks

[Frosty46]

WE own a ten plus year old Raptor and have gone to many RV "shows" finding today's offerings sadly poor in quality of materials and sad workmanship is the norm even on half million dollar rigs. Todays sad business morals reflect our political situation that is drawing down our nation. The "deregulation" crase is reaping the obvious rewards......