Winter Package

[Macs]

Hi Forum,

we just bought a 2014 Keystone Hornet Hideout RLSWE and we are trying to find out specific information about the Winter Edition. We looked through the information packets we were given by the dealership and can't find anything. We live in MT and would like to use our camper to go up hunting. We would like to know hold cold can it get before it affects the pipes? We are looking for temp ratings and any other specific information you may be able to tell us about or point us towards. I already performed a search of the site and did not find the specific information I was looking for.

Thank you for your time.

[tileman]

1st welcome to the site.

We have a fuzion we got in 2012 with some kind of winter package.

Well after looking around under the rv and in a few spots I would like to know what the call there winter package I had to fill in more holes and fix more spots cold air could get into.

[Festus2]

No one here would be surprised that you are not able to find anything specific about the "Winter Edition". This label has changed over the past few years and includes such names as "Arctic Package", "Polar Package", "4 Season, to name a few. The labels change from year to year but they are all pretty much meaningless.

There have been scads of posts and threads written here on the forum about this question that you have asked. Rather than go into all the details here, I would refer you to our Search function and you will find more than enough feedback and comments about your "Winter Edition".

There are too many variables that come into play when trying to answer "how cold can it get before it affects the pipes" and "temperature ratings".

To be blunt, the Winter Edition, aka Arctic Package, Polar Package, etc., is just a marketing gimmick to give the impression that you can go out hunting in the middle of winter and you'll be warm and cozy and your pipes will be just fine.

If, after browsing through the myriad of posts about this topic, you are still not clear about what it means - or better - what it doesn't mean , come back and we will give you some further feedback.

Use the Search feature --- type in Arctic Package/Polar package/underbelly insulation/ or a host of other key words. I wouldn't use Winter Package as this seems to be the latest flavor of the month.

Am I sounding skeptical enough?

Not trying to put you off by not answering your questions but this topic has been asked and answered many, many times before here on the forum.

[BulletOwner1]

I went to the Keystone website and emailed them for specifics on my "Thermal Package". Received a short response stating that the package included an underbelly covering, larger BTU heater and heated tanks using ducted heat. Not much but more than nothing.

[Festus2]

Almost every Keystone RV has the coroplast underbelly covering so this is not a unique or dedicated feature to make the unit more usable in the winter. The "heated" tanks using ducted heat is deceiving. This only works if and when your furnace is running and any heat that does manage to reach the tanks flows into a cavernous underbelly which is sadly lacking in insulation and full of scattered openings allowing any heat to dissipate or allow cold air in.

If you want to take a look at what is inside the underbelly, please do so. Geo, one of our members, has taken more than a look inside. I'd suggest you check out his posts on this subject. You might have your eyes opened as to what is or isn't in there but should be.

[therink]

I have arctic Barrier package for what that is worth. I wouldn't risk camping with wet tanks anytime night time temps go below 25f and day time temps below 35f. I think any temps below that would require some serious mods to retain heat.

[RS0530]

I just bought a 2013 Cougar 27RLSWE and the dealer made sure to tell me multiple times that my trailer was the Polar Edition, which meant it was good to zero degrees. I don't plan on doing any Polar camping so it wasn't a big selling point for me. I did see a cutout in my under belly that is used for disconnecting the slide motor, in the event of a failure. That alone would seem to let the warm air from my "ducted flooring" out.

Just my unprofessional opinion.

[Ken / Claudia]

Elk hunting in 0 degrees every RV friends and I have or had freeze up after several days. You need to run the heater all the time and keep heat to every water tank and complete water lines. Batteries fail, gennys can not keep up, take lots of propane. We have never left guys in camp. If you had somone to stay in camp they could keep checking water, fuel etc. It might work out ok. Also Jacks freeze etc etc.

[geo]

Hmm. Sounds like the "zero degrees" being referred to is 0 Celsius, not 0 Fahrenheit! When we purchased our Alpine, it was advertised as a "full timers, four seasons RV", even though the warranty was void if it was used for full time. What I discovered eventually lead to a massive job of insulating the underbelly. IMHO, if one camped where the night temps didn't drop below 25F, warmed up above 32F by 8am, and reached a high of 40F or above by mid-afternoon, and made sure the furnace operated, probably would be fine. Might want to used some pink antifreeze in the black/gray tanks. Now if one opened the bulkhead in the basement and used an electric heater ... might be able to experience colder conditions. Might add some skirting, but no hay bales! Have to protect the outside lines also, and this has been discussed in other Forum areas.

Ron

[x96mnn]

The 4th season you can do but your furnace is on 24/7 and you go through a ton of propane. I needed to have mine on 70 and went through a 30pd tank in 33hrs lol. The only issue I had was the line coming into the water froze which I filled my fresh tank and no issues after that. I had to drain the tanks and low the lines with a compressor before I left and dumped the black with in 2 hrs.

[tileman]

Was out looking at mine and I have a on/off for a thing called tank heater pad.

[geo]

Originally Posted by tileman

Was out looking at mine and I have a on/off for a thing called tank heater pad.

Tileman -

Yes, we have had this discussion before on the forum. Curious here, did you purchase your Fuzion new? Did the dealer install the tank heater? From the previous discussions, the vast majority of Keystones do not have tank heaters nor are tank heaters listed as an option. That left most all of us very curious as why one member had an older Keystone with a tank heater! And in that case, the tank heater was only on the fresh water tank! No tank heaters on either of the gray water or black water tanks! I believe what we finally concluded, without going back to those posts, was that the dealer had installed the heater on the fresh water tank. I'm wondering if it might be the same for you?

What I found, and modified, on my Alpine was that there was only a 2.5" (6cm) duct extending off the furnace plenum with T-connections at the adjacent black and gray tank valves and then the end of that duct ending at the galley gray tank valve. In my mods, I installed 120VAC tank heaters on both gray tanks and the black tank. I installed both a 120VAC and a 12VDC tank heaters on the fresh water tank. I untangled a huge mess of heating ductwork, corrected four places where the ductwork was crushed (thus restricting airflow), and fully insulated the whole underbelly to within 4" of the top of the underbelly area. I also installed a 100 cfm fan and duct to push warmed air from the utility sub-basement back to the fresh water tank area such that it would flow along the Pex piping back the the sub-basement to keep that warm. Yes, this did take a lot of time, and if you do a Search, or look for the old posts from me, you will find verbose posts and pictures. All of this earned me the nickname of "Lord of the Underbelly"!

I understand now that our Alpine is located in the oil fields of western Oklahoma. I would bet that it kept more than just its new owner warm this past winter!

So, as you have a tank heater, you might want to locate which tank this heater is applied to. I would bet it is a dealer modification and applied to the fresh water tank. Might be handy to know.

The SOB I have now has a full insulated underbelly, tank heaters and elbow heaters on all plumbing, and a temperature monitor in the utility basement besides the furnace outlet to keep the utilities warmed. Another "thing" I like about it is that the bulkhead between the storage basement and utility basement is sliding doors, so it will be very easy to "add" electric heat to this area.

So, Tileman, you are in a very select group of Keystone owners! You have a "tank heater"!

Ron

[tileman]

Originally Posted by geo

Tileman -

Yes, we have had this discussion before on the forum. Curious here, did you purchase your Fuzion new? Did the dealer install the tank heater? From the previous discussions, the vast majority of Keystones do not have tank heaters nor are tank heaters listed as an option. That left most all of us very curious as why one member had an older Keystone with a tank heater! And in that case, the tank heater was only on the fresh water tank! No tank heaters on either of the gray water or black water tanks! I believe what we finally concluded, without going back to those posts, was that the dealer had installed the heater on the fresh water tank. I'm wondering if it might be the same for you?

What I found, and modified, on my Alpine was that there was only a 2.5" (6cm) duct extending off the furnace plenum with T-connections at the adjacent black and gray tank valves and then the end of that duct ending at the galley gray tank valve. In my mods, I installed 120VAC tank heaters on both gray tanks and the black tank. I installed both a 120VAC and a 12VDC tank heaters on the fresh water tank. I untangled a huge mess of heating ductwork, corrected four places where the ductwork was crushed (thus restricting airflow), and fully insulated the whole underbelly to within 4" of the top of the underbelly area. I also installed a 100 cfm fan and duct to push warmed air from the utility sub-basement back to the fresh water tank area such that it would flow along the Pex piping back the the sub-basement to keep that warm. Yes, this did take a lot of time, and if you do a Search, or look for the old posts from me, you will find verbose posts and pictures. All of this earned me the nickname of "Lord of the Underbelly"!

I understand now that our Alpine is located in the oil fields of western Oklahoma. I would bet that it kept more than just its new owner warm this past winter!

So, as you have a tank heater, you might want to locate which tank this heater is applied to. I would bet it is a dealer modification and applied to the fresh water tank. Might be handy to know.

The SOB I have now has a full insulated underbelly, tank heaters and elbow heaters on all plumbing, and a temperature monitor in the utility basement besides the furnace outlet to keep the utilities warmed. Another "thing" I like about it is that the bulkhead between the storage basement and utility basement is sliding doors, so it will be very easy to "add" electric heat to this area.

So, Tileman, you are in a very select group of Keystone owners! You have a "tank heater"!

Ron

Yea we got ours new off the lot back in may of 2012.
It came with the monster package.

I only used the tank heater back in jan we were up in GA and the temps that night got down in the low 20s for a few hours. So I thought it could not hurt to turn it on.

[geo]

Originally Posted by tileman

Yea we got ours new off the lot back in may of 2012.
It came with the monster package.

I only used the tank heater back in jan we were up in GA and the temps that night got down in the low 20s for a few hours. So I thought it could not hurt to turn it on.

Tileman -

And sure enough, right there on the Keystone RV website! The Fuzion has "Heat Pads for Tanks" option! An option not available on either the Alpine or Montana! And not an option for anything Keystone that I could find back in 2011 models. But do try to confirm what tanks are heated. Usually there is one switch for each heat pad.

Ron

[Outbackmel]

Mine always works great once i get the rv packed and cross the city welcome sign to Port Charlotte, Florida!

[Crash3800]

Bought a 2014 250RS with the Arctic Barrier June 2014 after [I]the[I] Outback product manager, Tim Domiano, toured us around the the Keystone facility in Goshen, regaling us with stories of someone living in their Outback year around in Montana.

We later learned that Keystone doesn't guarantee anything below "30 or 35 degrees or whatever freezing is." Yes a Keystone rep actually said that.

The lines in our unit started to freeze (no running water) after only one night that bottomed out at 21 degrees even though the slides were in, the water heater was on and the trailer was around 65 degrees all night.

A local service manager called the Arctic Barrier "...Almost totally useless."

I spent an hour on the phone with Tim Domiano today as he tap danced around the issue that Keystone (deliberately?) doesn't rate any of their units as usable below freezing. Beware. He tried telling me the story of the person in Montana at least three times.

[mikell]

Our Alpine has been below zero many times but it's after a few days that you really have to pay attention. A night in the 20's shouldn't be an issue. Going to start getting ready for the winter next week. Have over 50 campers in the park getting hunkered down for it

[airforceret]

We spent many a cold nights in our old 2000 Starcraft TT with no so called winter or polar package. The tanks clearly had no insulation or belly wrap.

A bit of freezing in the tank was pretty normal on a long, cold night.

The concern when cold camping is whether it will freeze solid enough to break something or will it freeze solid enough to prevent emptying / draining something like the sink or will it freeze solid enough to damage something (like the pump).

Obviously draining the tanks was an afternoon chore and not a first thing in the morning event.

The key (for us) was having days that warmed up above freezing (each day) to minimize the risk of a hard freeze.

Cold management was something we learned over time by getting to know the limits of our camper, and learning what more we could do like leave the hot water heater on, crack some of the cabinet doors to allow air into the inner cavities where the pipes run... etc.

[MarkS]

Originally Posted by Crash3800

The lines in our unit started to freeze (no running water) after only one night that bottomed out at 21 degrees even though the slides were in, the water heater was on and the trailer was around 65 degrees all night.

Hi Crash,

In a previous post on this incident, you said you had spent the day driving through a Wyoming Blizzard. You said you were getting slush out of the sink when you parked. I think you were in trouble before you parked for the night. One of the worse things you can do is to tow an un-winterized trailer in below freezing weather. No heat. Constant 'wind'.

Not attacking you. Just trying to explain. Most Trailers are three season. Keystones are no better than three season. To get through a winter night you have to have the heater on. The trailer has to be somewhat warm before dark. You can't turn the heater on at dark and expect not to freeze up. And, you may need a couple of space heaters to be comfortable.

[Bob Landry]

In the course of adding a 20A feed to my trailer to run space heaters independently of my 30A service, here is what I have found.

My trailer is a 2011 Outback 277RL with a "Polar Package".
Dropping the coroplast o run wiring disclosed zero insulation under the trailer. No roll insulation, no sprayed in, no quilted foil, absolutely nothing. The flooring consist of sheet vinyl stapled to a 1/4" plywood subfloor with 1 1/2" of sheet styrofoam sandwiched between it and 1/8" plywood.

The water piping and the electrical wiring goes up through holes cut out in the floor with no kind of foam of any type sealing the holes. The heater has three ducts coming off of it, and they are the non- insulated kind of duct, so there will be heat loss through it. The three ducts go to the three floor registers. There is no small duct from the heater that I was able to see that would be going under the floor to keep the tanks from freezing. Windows are not double pane. So, hey Keystone, refresh my memory as to just exactly what comprises the so-called Polar Package.

You know, if this were an entry level trailer, I would expect this type of construction quality and maybe even less, but this is a fairly expensive middle of the line trailer.

I go to the occasional RV show to look at the latest and greatest, and to kick a few tires, thinking it might be nice to have a fiver, but the reality is, I'm going to have so much time and money invested in this trailer simply fixing Keystone, I don't see how I can afford to trade it in, especially knowing I would be starting over with a whole new set of issues.