Underbelly question

[dpd12]

I picked our new 2013 Laredo 303tg about 3 weeks ago. Today was the first decent day weather wise to really check it out as I live in Ontario and it has still been winter here.

I was climbing all over the unit, checking it out and tightening a few screws etc. When I looked at the under belly which is all supposed to be enclosed and heated with a glacier package much to my shock I discovered corrugated cardboard. Are you kidding me this is $30000 trailer. Am I missing something here? Does anyone know what is behind the cardboard? This would not have been my first choice chipmunks could easily breach this barrier. Is it sealed tight beyond the cardboard?

Overall we are happy with the trailer but they also cheaped out on the tailgate bbq and pullout stove on the outdoor kitchen. Why do they do that?

On comments or suggestions appreciated.

[SlowPoke]

I will first start with the Glacier Package...hope it wasn't a "Deal Maker" as many members who have TT's with the Polar/Arctic/Glacier packages have found it's a joke ...Some have done some Modding to their units to actually bring the package up to what it is supposed to be... do a quick search on the forums for Glacier Package or Polar and you will see what I mean.

Second, I have a Passport, and I too have the "Cheapo" tailgate BBQ. I knew it when I bought it, but have plans to "Fix" that issue. The TT had what else we needed at the price we couldn't walkout from so we are dealing until my "fix".

Third, the corrugated cardboard isn't actual cardboard, but it DOES look like it doesn't it? It's actually a plastic or composite that is in the form of corrugated sheets. My TT has this as well, and is sealed at the joints, and at the beams with a spray foam adhesive, followed by bolts to attach the sheets to the frame. I only have found a few holes here and there that were not sealed due to manufacturer forgetfullness, or maybe they left it open on purpose for additional items that never made it to my model!?! I sealed them myself, and have no worries about critters getting in.

I look at it this way, Keystone has a good reputation, but it's not a Prevost... I just don't have the coin for "Custom" like that. $30K is a great deal of money these days, but in the broad spectrum of things, I feel I got what I paid for, mine was around $22k with some freebie options added in. (Yeah, I know, they weren't really free lol) It's just a reality that I and many others have come to understand....

Otherwise enjoy your new TT!! I'm sure you'll find some things here and there, as it's just to be expected these days (at least I have come to accept it) and fix what you don't like, or contact your dealer to see what he can work out with you. Never hurts to give 'em a call and talk through some any issues you have come to find. If the dealer is reputable, they will work things out and try to make things right. This has been my personal experience twice in as many purchases.

[Festus2]

No, you are not missing anything but I don't have any really good "underbelly" news for you. More and more members are discovering, far too late, that all the various packages - Polar, Arctic, Glacier and goodness knows what else - is simply just an advertising gimmick.

The cardboard does have a name - coroplast. It is essentially corrugated black plastic and this is the infamous underbelly enclosure. What is behind it? Well, that varies - from nothing to perhaps some collapsed insulation.

Heated? Yes, but with so many caveats. The heat is moved to the underbelly by a 2" duct which, by the time it reaches where it is supposed to go, has dissipated or lost its heat.

You may have noticed that the coroplast isn't exactly airtight - having many openings and holes where water lines, propane lines, brake wiring, etc., may protrude. Covered? Yes, not wholly or holey???

If you do a forum search, the underbelly has been thoroughly discussed. Just recently, there was a thread on this topic and a very nice modification done by one of our members.
If you seek out geo, our forum "Lord of the Underbelly", he has written volumes on this topic. He knows everything there is to know (and more) about the underbelly. Read his posts and take a look at his mods and comments.

Don't be fooled or misled by the Glacial package. I have a Polar Package. And what is that? A sticker. Just a sticker.

Your unit, mine and others are a 3 season RV - don't be going out in your Ontario winter and expect to be warm and cozy without fear of water lines freezing up.

Sorry for all the bad news but there is more good news than bad.

[Laredo60]

Dpd12 have you noticed that your cushion on the table bed has one cushion longer then the other3? The cushion for your back in the center is larger then the other 2 from the sides. Let me know if yours is not like that would you? Thanks

[dpd12]

Festus2 and Slowpoke;

Thanks for the info, it doesn't change anything but it makes me feel better somehow. I will only be using this trailer for 3 seasons anyway. I was just surprised to see sagging or bellowing coroplast underneath. My last TT had a full sheet metal on the underbelly. However this unit had a bigger furnace and ducted floor heat which is an upgrade for me. I will check out the other underbelly posts - thanks.

Laredo60: I do have the same cushion set up and thanks to this forum I was aware of the odd ball cushions pre purchase. We do not plan to use the dinette as a bed very often so we can live with it. It probably could have been and easy design fix -not sure why the design folks settled for that configuration.

[geo]

Originally Posted by dpd12

Festus2 and Slowpoke;

Thanks for the info, it doesn't change anything but it makes me feel better somehow. I will only be using this trailer for 3 seasons anyway. I was just surprised to see sagging or bellowing coroplast underneath. My last TT had a full sheet metal on the underbelly. However this unit had a bigger furnace and ducted floor heat which is an upgrade for me. I will check out the other underbelly posts - thanks.

Dpd12 -

If interested, under "Community" at the top, you can find my login in the Members List. On the Statistics, look for threads started by geo. You will probably guess what you want to look at from the thread titles. What I found in my excursions into the underbelly of an Alpine is that the fresh water tank is rounded on the bottom and that the heating ducts for the rear of the Alpine were crushed between the fresh water tank and the coroplast. Once I reworked and repositioned the flexible ducts more to the side of the fresh water tank and assured they were "not as crushed", the coroplast did not sag as much, and there was an amazing amount of warm air through the rear heating vents. I believe I posted some pictures of this also. All these postings are wrapped up around installing tank heaters and insulating the underbelly.

Ron

[LittleJoe]

As long as you heat with the furnace "some" warm air will make it to the underbelly. NOt near enough for our cold though.

Wait till you see the nice neat wiring job under that coroplast.

With a one year warranty, most anything will do for the majority of purchasers.

[Terrydactile]

Originally Posted by LittleJoe

Wait till you see the nice neat wiring job under that coroplast.

Boy, you aren't kidding. Found that out about mine a long time ago. What a mess. I think that, among other things, installing the coroplast covers up that birds nest under there.

[Comptech]

Taken from the Keystone Website:

Polar package plus
Cougar has been zero degree tested. The Polar Package Plus allows you to camp to zero degrees without worry of your tanks or water lines freezing up. We also add upgraded insulation to our slide-out floors to control the hot and cold exchange and unlike our competition we merge our skirt metal to the I-Beam for complete enclosure of your fifth wheel underbelly.

So... Who wants to test this and report back?

[Exsailor]

Coldest I ever camped is around 30 degrees, heater ran quite a bit which tells you something about the "polar package". Being from MS that's probably my limit anyway. Heat is my issue, the roof and ceiling mean more to me. Hey we live in a world where Tundras tow space shuttles so hype is a way of life, I'm sure keystone marketing is just being creative like everyone else.

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by Comptech

Taken from the Keystone Website:

Polar package plus
Cougar has been zero degree tested. The Polar Package Plus allows you to camp to zero degrees without worry of your tanks or water lines freezing up.

So... Who wants to test this and report back?

Comptech:

Would that be zero degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit? Doesn't water start to freeze at 32 deg F? If their test was conducted at zero degrees, that would be 32 degrees below freezing! I wonder how long they subjected the Cougar to that temperature? A few seconds? A couple of minutes?

Now that I have read this blurb from Keystone, I have no reason to doubt its credibility. And I've got a Polar Package sticker on my Cougar to prove that it must be true.

Reassurance by Keystone gives me great comfort and; like Alfred E. Newman, I can now say with complete and unreserved confidence.........."What, me Worry?" My pipes won't freeze up .........

[Comptech]

See attached, If you go by the Keystone Pic that is attached to the description.... looks to be Fahrenheit.... So I am going camping somewhere it is 32 below 0... Yea right...

Originally Posted by Festus2

Comptech:

Would that be zero degrees Celsius or Fahrenheit? Doesn't water start to freeze at 32 deg F? If their test was conducted at zero degrees, that would be 32 degrees below freezing! I wonder how long they subjected the Cougar to that temperature? A few seconds? A couple of minutes?

Now that I have read this blurb from Keystone, I have no reason to doubt its credibility. And I've got a Polar Package sticker on my Cougar to prove that it must be true.

Reassurance by Keystone gives me great comfort and; like Alfred E. Newman, I can now say with complete and unreserved confidence.........."What, me Worry?" My pipes won't freeze up .........

[TandE]

Would it do any good if your were to get ready to purchase one with the polar/arctic/glacier package and verify the build sheet that it was suppose to have it, to have the dealer remove the underbelly to do a pdi and have them install it if it doesn't have it?

I'm assuming though most dealers wouldn't want to do that.

[Comptech]

No sure even if they did, could verify that it was done. There is not documentation that I have seen that says exactly what the Polar Package (or other) should consist of.. How much insulation here, and here etc....

[mguay]

Although I am only an "Apprentice to The Lord of the Underbelly" geo, check out this post of what I found last week when I looked into the "Glacier Package" of my Laredo.

http://www.keystonerv.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10892

[LittleJoe]

At 0deg F if the furnace never shut off (which it probably wouldn't) and the trailer was completely sheltered from any wind it MIGHT not freeze........I'll try it with your trailer first

[Kettleby_Cruiser]

Check out this video on YouTube on how the Cougar is constructed...there are other related videos on other keystone models too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZ1UY...e_gdata_player

Cheers....Chuck

[34kw]

Originally Posted by LittleJoe

At 0deg F if the furnace never shut off (which it probably wouldn't) and the trailer was completely sheltered from any wind it MIGHT not freeze........I'll try it with your trailer first

I actually did stay for 3 days in ND last winter at 0 to 5 degrees. Just bought my 2011 5th wheel 310 RL Laredo at the dealer and needed to stay in the area. No, the furnace never shut off, but the water and tanks didn't freeze. I had no shelter from the wind which was howling. The third day the water did freeze at the kitchen sink, but I still had the bathroom. I was pretty impressed until I started reading this forum. Now I think I better take a look underneath. The only sticker I have is that the tanks are insulated with R37. I haven't seen any Polar stickers.

[hankpage]

The "Polar" , "Glacier" package or what ever it is called on your model is most likely a "Mandatory Option" (figure that out) so they all have it if offered. All it is is the enclosed belly, some insulation and a two in. heat duct dumping into the belly somewhere. It is a sales gimmick that helps very little but as mentioned the furnace must be running constantly. You can be sure that the test model was carefully made and tested under ideal conditions. Believe me ... "I stayed at a Holiday Inn once."

[therink]

Originally Posted by SlowPoke

I will first start with the Glacier Package...hope it wasn't a "Deal Maker" as many members who have TT's with the Polar/Arctic/Glacier packages have found it's a joke ...Some have done some Modding to their units to actually bring the package up to what it is supposed to be... do a quick search on the forums for Glacier Package or Polar and you will see what I mean.

Second, I have a Passport, and I too have the "Cheapo" tailgate BBQ. I knew it when I bought it, but have plans to "Fix" that issue. The TT had what else we needed at the price we couldn't walkout from so we are dealing until my "fix".

Third, the corrugated cardboard isn't actual cardboard, but it DOES look like it doesn't it? It's actually a plastic or composite that is in the form of corrugated sheets. My TT has this as well, and is sealed at the joints, and at the beams with a spray foam adhesive, followed by bolts to attach the sheets to the frame. I only have found a few holes here and there that were not sealed due to manufacturer forgetfullness, or maybe they left it open on purpose for additional items that never made it to my model!?! I sealed them myself, and have no worries about critters getting in.

I look at it this way, Keystone has a good reputation, but it's not a Prevost... I just don't have the coin for "Custom" like that. $30K is a great deal of money these days, but in the broad spectrum of things, I feel I got what I paid for, mine was around $22k with some freebie options added in. (Yeah, I know, they weren't really free lol) It's just a reality that I and many others have come to understand....

Otherwise enjoy your new TT!! I'm sure you'll find some things here and there, as it's just to be expected these days (at least I have come to accept it) and fix what you don't like, or contact your dealer to see what he can work out with you. Never hurts to give 'em a call and talk through some any issues you have come to find. If the dealer is reputable, they will work things out and try to make things right. This has been my personal experience twice in as many purchases.

X2- Amen Brother. I got my $ worth and yes it does take some tweaking here and there. That is the nature of the beast. I have had issues as well but I intend to make the best of my $40k 2nd home on wheels. If the salesmen told you you would have problems, they would never sell any. The manufacturer's cram a lot of conveniences intonation box for a reasonably affordable price. If I paid $250K, I would complain. I can't afford to complain.
My. 02 cents.
Steve