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Old 05-20-2021, 03:47 AM   #1
Hellbilly13
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Another 50A plug melted

We got to a new campground and the shore power wouldn't work at all. The display for the ems wasn't even coming on. I had never seen this, so I assumed it was a problem with cg power. They moved us to the next site; same issue.

After troubleshooting, I found that the 90 degree adapter that connects to the trailer was bad. I removed it and everything seemed fine for a while. Then the ems started kicking the power off intermittently. The code was low voltage (PE4). We called park maintenance, but they said everything was good on their end.

A day into the stay, the power kicked 3 times right in a row and came back. After that everything was good for over 24 hours. Then, I got the strong smell of burning electrical. It took me about 10 minutes to figure out where it was coming from. The shore power connection was melted on one leg on both sides of the connection and the whole thing was too hot to touch for any length of time.

After talking to an rv service guy on the phone, he said it was a loose connection. I replaced both ends of the connection and everything seems good to go now. I'm extremely nervous to leave the trailer now. I've had 3 rv maintenance pros tell me it would have likely burned to the ground if I wasn't home.

What can I do to make sure this doesn't happen again? I'm not sure how to tell if that connection is just a little off? It feels fairly loose with brand new parts? The guy at the rv parts dept tried to sell me a plug in ems even though I have an on board one. He said it would have stopped this, but I don't see how?

One campground maintenance guy told us we were drawing too much current with 2 ac's and the clothes dryer. We full-time and have done this many times, but I know that doesn't necessarily make it right. My understanding is that we can draw up to 50A on each leg? He argued for 10 minutes with me that it is only 50A total. I finally told him to google it when he got home. I'm wondering now if I owe this guy an apology? I'm 99% sure I'm right, but this whole string of events has me confused?

TIA for any advice you can give to absolutely make sure this does not happen again.
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:27 AM   #2
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You have an EMS, what is your current draw when running both AC's and the dryer, and is the load balanced.
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:41 AM   #3
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If your connections are loose and sloppy I would be looking into that pronto. Heck, sometimes it takes me and DW to pull ours apart. If yours is like ours, the connection to the RV has a threaded ring that tightens that connection. And yes, you have 100A total, 50A on each hot leg, to your RV. You don't owe that "service guy" an apology; it's the other way around.

If you pull too much amperage from inside the trailer (ACs/dryer) your trailer breaker or ped breaker should trip before you burn down the trailer. On the other hand, if it's NOT being overloaded but simply arcing and frying due to loose connections the breakers won't help you - it will arc, sizzle, fry, smoke and eventually - given the situation, start a flame.
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Old 05-20-2021, 04:41 AM   #4
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While I was running around trying to find what was burning I did look at the ems display. It was about 30A on L-1 and 20A on L-2. I didn't write down the exact numbers, but I didn't think there was an issue there?

After replacing the parts, I fired up everything I could think of so I could feel the wiring for heat. L-1 was 38A, L-2 was 22A.The shore power wiring directly behind the plug did not even feel warm to me after running like that for half an hour.
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:05 AM   #5
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If your connections are loose and sloppy I would be looking into that pronto. Heck, sometimes it takes me and DW to pull ours apart. If yours is like ours, the connection to the RV has a threaded ring that tightens that connection.
This our first RV ever, so I have nothing to compare the tightness of the connection to. It never felt that tight to me? Very easy to remove with one hand. With brand new parts, it is about the same. As for the locking ring, the old one had that. The new locking ring they sold me doesn't work with the new plug they sold me.

Both the old and new connections lock into place with a twist to the right about 1/4".
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Old 05-20-2021, 05:40 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
If your connections are loose and sloppy I would be looking into that pronto. Heck, sometimes it takes me and DW to pull ours apart. If yours is like ours, the connection to the RV has a threaded ring that tightens that connection. And yes, you have 100A total, 50A on each hot leg, to your RV. You don't owe that "service guy" an apology; it's the other way around.

If you pull too much amperage from inside the trailer (ACs/dryer) your trailer breaker or ped breaker should trip before you burn down the trailer. On the other hand, if it's NOT being overloaded but simply arcing and frying due to loose connections the breakers won't help you - it will arc, sizzle, fry, smoke and eventually - given the situation, start a flame.
^^^What Danny says - get those loose connections fixed/replaced - check all your cords and connections. There is a lot of current available in a 50A (12,000 W) RV system and all of your connections should be tight. They are expensive but now you know why.

To me, this is one of the reasons why I want my EMS at the pedestal rather than at the trailer. The trailer mounted EMS will provide no protection for up-stream shore wires, pig-tails, and other devices. A pedestal mounted EMS at least has a chance to see high current, low voltage, etc. if the problem occurs in the shore power cord or pigtails. Power cords and pigtails get the roughest treatment, get plugged/unplugged repeatedly, moved, dragged on the cement, etc. and potentially are the most likely to fail in the future. They might not catch a pure arc of 30A, but if that arc occurs and drops the voltage or current increases, a pedestal mounted EMS has a chance to shut down the system; a trailer mounted EMS may completely miss all those events and be oblivious until it's too late. That's JMHO and some will likely disagree.

Good luck getting those connections fixed!
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:24 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Hellbilly13 View Post
We got to a new campground and the shore power wouldn't work at all. The display for the ems wasn't even coming on. I had never seen this, so I assumed it was a problem with cg power. They moved us to the next site; same issue.

After troubleshooting, I found that the 90 degree adapter that connects to the trailer was bad. I removed it and everything seemed fine for a while. Then the ems started kicking the power off intermittently. The code was low voltage (PE4). We called park maintenance, but they said everything was good on their end.

A day into the stay, the power kicked 3 times right in a row and came back. After that everything was good for over 24 hours. Then, I got the strong smell of burning electrical. It took me about 10 minutes to figure out where it was coming from. The shore power connection was melted on one leg on both sides of the connection and the whole thing was too hot to touch for any length of time.

After talking to an rv service guy on the phone, he said it was a loose connection. I replaced both ends of the connection and everything seems good to go now. I'm extremely nervous to leave the trailer now. I've had 3 rv maintenance pros tell me it would have likely burned to the ground if I wasn't home.

What can I do to make sure this doesn't happen again? I'm not sure how to tell if that connection is just a little off? It feels fairly loose with brand new parts? The guy at the rv parts dept tried to sell me a plug in ems even though I have an on board one. He said it would have stopped this, but I don't see how?

One campground maintenance guy told us we were drawing too much current with 2 ac's and the clothes dryer. We full-time and have done this many times, but I know that doesn't necessarily make it right. My understanding is that we can draw up to 50A on each leg? He argued for 10 minutes with me that it is only 50A total. I finally told him to google it when he got home. I'm wondering now if I owe this guy an apology? I'm 99% sure I'm right, but this whole string of events has me confused?

TIA for any advice you can give to absolutely make sure this does not happen again.
Most....not all, campground maint. guys are "jack of all trades and masters of NONE". He obviously know little to maybe nothing about electrical systems and was 110% wrong. Each hot leg in a 50A electrical service for an RV has the ability to pull 50 amps each, for a total of 100 amps. The biggest issue is loose connections....which are likely on their end. Stop and think how many times someone has plugged their camper into THAT receptacle at that campground......likely thousands and thousands of times....and those receptacle will eventually loosen up to the point that they are not making a good solid connection. Anytime you plug something in and the plug just almost falls into the recept., there is a loose connection at that point.
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:26 AM   #8
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To me, this is one of the reasons why I want my EMS at the pedestal rather than at the trailer. The trailer mounted EMS will provide no protection for up-stream shore wires, pig-tails, and other devices.
That was the reasoning the guy at the parts supply had. That was why I wanted some input here.

I don't have much experience working on residential/commercial electrical circuits, but I do have a few decades working with small electronic circuits. I've been out of college for a long time, but from what I remember it shouldn't matter where that ems is in the circuit. It will see any of the conditions it monitors for anywhere in the circuit. That's why I don't think adding an additional ems at the pedestal will change anything.

I have been very wrong before, so I am open to a different explanation of how the ems works. I think of it kind of like a GFCI, if it senses an issue it will shut off the entire circuit. Doesn't matter where in the circuit that particular GFCI is.
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:42 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hellbilly13 View Post
That was the reasoning the guy at the parts supply had. That was why I wanted some input here.

I don't have much experience working on residential/commercial electrical circuits, but I do have a few decades working with small electronic circuits. I've been out of college for a long time, but from what I remember it shouldn't matter where that ems is in the circuit. It will see any of the conditions it monitors for anywhere in the circuit. That's why I don't think adding an additional ems at the pedestal will change anything.

I have been very wrong before, so I am open to a different explanation of how the ems works. I think of it kind of like a GFCI, if it senses an issue it will shut off the entire circuit. Doesn't matter where in the circuit that particular GFCI is.
Yes, a GFCI will protect any device that is plugged in to the GFCI circuit. It will NOT protect devices in the same service panel that are plugged in to other non-GFCI outlets. In the same way, an RV EMS will protect devices on the "load" side but not on the "line" side. So, with a pedestal mounted EMS, the shore cord and pigtails are on the load side and protected. With a trailer mounted EMS, the shore cord and pigtails are on the line side and therefore not protected. So far as I know, there is only one exception to this statement. Southwire makes the Surge Guard EMS and in their marketing material, they advertise that their system is the only one that protects BOTH the line and load sides from an "open neutral" condition in the 50A service.
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:47 AM   #10
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In my limited experience with RV's but not in life, if any plug goes in and out of the receptacle too loosely, it needs changing. I now know why the male plug end of the 50A cord has a robust handle on it, if it fits correctly into the receptacle, you need to put some force in removing it.
As far as the locking ring it should work, and tighten properly to keep the connection firm on the trailer end. If not, you might need to change the trailer receptacle and the twist plug.
Good luck
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:57 AM   #11
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When an EMS shuts down the power it kills everything down stream but still has power up to the EMS. So theoretically a pedestal mounted EMS would shut down the power before it reaches your camper.
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:57 AM   #12
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In addition to "having a robust handle to help pull the male end out of the receptacle" remember to turn off the circuit breaker before plugging in or removing the plug. Let the "campground circuit breaker" protect your shore power cord male end pins from arcing damage... Any plug that is connected under a load will "arc and spark" as it makes connections. All those pits and burn marks on your shore power cord are preventable... Eventually you'll need to replace the male end connector if you plug in "under power"....

Use the circuit breaker on the pedestal to protect your equipment drom damage.
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Old 05-20-2021, 06:59 AM   #13
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OP while on the topic;

You will find receptacles in campgrounds in all sorts of repair/disrepair....some perfect and/or near new as well. IF a receptacle is wobbly loose I move to another site. If it's winter time and I'm not trying to run both ACs I'll use a 50A to 30A adapter IF the 30A plug is in better shape...but they are generally in worse shape. To that end I carry an 18" (I believe) dogbone type of cable that is simply a 50A Male and 50A female. I plug it into the ped before my EMS and use it as a "sacrificial" component for those "iffy" plugs we encounter all the time. When those start eating up the prongs on it I'll just replace it - much cheaper than another EMS.
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Old 05-20-2021, 07:03 AM   #14
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OP while on the topic;

You will find receptacles in campgrounds in all sorts of repair/disrepair....some perfect and/or near new as well. IF a receptacle is wobbly loose I move to another site. If it's winter time and I'm not trying to run both ACs I'll use a 50A to 30A adapter IF the 30A plug is in better shape...but they are generally in worse shape. To that end I carry an 18" (I believe) dogbone type of cable that is simply a 50A Male and 50A female. I plug it into the ped before my EMS and use it as a "sacrificial" component for those "iffy" plugs we encounter all the time. When those start eating up the prongs on it I'll just replace it - much cheaper than another EMS.
That's a great idea, Danny. THANKS!
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Old 05-20-2021, 10:31 AM   #15
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When an EMS shuts down the power it kills everything down stream but still has power up to the EMS. So theoretically a pedestal mounted EMS would shut down the power before it reaches your camper.
Thank you! It just clicked in my mind when I read this. It seems so obvious now, but my thinking on this was twisted. The older I get, the more I realize things i "knew" to be true just aren't. We all create our own reality and it changes all the time.

When researching which ems I wanted I don't remember ever reading this as a pro for having the pedestal mounted one? I guess I will double up on ems protection and probably buy a sacrificial dog bone mentioned in another post.
As far as how hard it is to plug/unplug shore power, I have to assume my new parts are good to go. I now have a reference for how it should feel. It is still a one handed operation for me.
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Old 05-20-2021, 11:23 AM   #16
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When an EMS shuts down the power it kills everything down stream but still has power up to the EMS. So theoretically a pedestal mounted EMS would shut down the power before it reaches your camper.
And conversely most pedestal mounted EMS units will not protect your camper if the cord between it and your camper fails.
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Old 05-20-2021, 11:37 AM   #17
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Bill if you are considering a portable EMS be sure it is a true EMS that will shut down the power if needed. Many of them are simply surge protectors. As Marshall points out there are pros and cons to either type. My personal preference is the permanently mounted type, I was just pointing out why some recommend the portable.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:01 PM   #18
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Not sure where everybody got the idea that an EMS looks at the load side for issues. An EMS looks at incoming power, and if the voltage is outside of the specs or if any of the other specs are off, the EMS will shut off power to the RV. With a pedestal mounted EMS, it looks at power coming in, but it can not see anything beyond, toward the RV. With a hardwired EMS, it also looks toward the source, so the cable inside the RV, up to the EMS, all the way backwards toward the pedestal and beyond is what it looks at for power issues. The EMS does not work like a breaker, which senses current above its rating and opens up.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Hellbilly13 View Post
That was the reasoning the guy at the parts supply had. That was why I wanted some input here.

I don't have much experience working on residential/commercial electrical circuits, but I do have a few decades working with small electronic circuits. I've been out of college for a long time, but from what I remember it shouldn't matter where that ems is in the circuit. It will see any of the conditions it monitors for anywhere in the circuit. That's why I don't think adding an additional ems at the pedestal will change anything.

I have been very wrong before, so I am open to a different explanation of how the ems works. I think of it kind of like a GFCI, if it senses an issue it will shut off the entire circuit. Doesn't matter where in the circuit that particular GFCI is.
IT ABSOLUTLY makes a difference where it is in the circuit. The EMS reads DOWNSTREEM of the device. If it is mounted inside the RV it can not read condition between it and the pedestal. It is very confusing to say "100 amps available". No electrician in his lifetime ever said those words. If either leg goes over 50 amps for any reason then both trip and the power goes off. Newbies have a hard time understanding that. Do you have a hard wired EMS inside or a Load Sheading Device with the letters EMS on it?. Energy Management System is a highly missed-used term. EMS is just like a GFI. Both work DOWNSTREAM. A ground fault will trip a GFI outlet but not the breaker. The breaker will trip only on overload.
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Old 05-20-2021, 12:48 PM   #20
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IT ABSOLUTLY makes a difference where it is in the circuit. The EMS reads DOWNSTREEM of the device. If it is mounted inside the RV it can not read condition between it and the pedestal. It is very confusing to say "100 amps available". No electrician in his lifetime ever said those words. If either leg goes over 50 amps for any reason then both trip and the power goes off. Newbies have a hard time understanding that. Do you have a hard wired EMS inside or a Load Sheading Device with the letters EMS on it?. Energy Management System is a highly missed-used term. EMS is just like a GFI. Both work DOWNSTREAM. A ground fault will trip a GFI outlet but not the breaker. The breaker will trip only on overload.

I think you're confusing the issue and probably the OP. The highlighted above is untrue. I've discussed RV receptacles with electricians (not "retired" electricians) and none of them ever said 100 amps was not available to the RV....none; in fact the opposite. Whether you can have 100amps in aggregate or 50A on 2 separate legs, the RV has the ability to pull up to 100A....not on one leg....from the RV service as a whole (both legs). To continually say there is only 50A available is just not correct.

An EMS monitors what's coming to it from "upstream", not downstream (behind it). When the incoming (upstream) power has any of the faults it monitors for it shuts down. If you have something defective in the trailer (downstream/behind it) causing havoc....it does not know. The new Southwire Surge Guard does monitor "downstream" (back toward the trailer) for a couple of faults but it's the only one I am aware of.
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