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Old 07-13-2017, 04:41 PM   #1
BlackNoir
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Truck for 2017 Cougar Xlite 28RDB

Hello Keystone owners! We're in the market to get a 2017 Keystone Cougar Xlite 28RDB Fifth Wheel and i was hoping someone could recommend what i should look for in a truck to pull it? Hoping there might be some others out there with something similar? We're only buying the truck to pull the rv and trips to the box stores, so we don't need anything fancy and would prefer not to spend more then we need to.

The relevant specs i see are as follows:

shipping weight - 7685
carrying capacity - 2315
hitch - 1475

I'm guessing that the Hitch weight would be the same as the Payload weight that i see on some trucks that i've looked at, and that the Shipping Weight + Carrying Capacity would be the max for the Towing Capacity of the truck? As an example i see that a 2017 ford f-150 has a payload of 1621-2329 and a towing capacity of 5000-10500, i'm assuming the variable is the type of towing package you get.

Thanks for any advice,
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Old 07-13-2017, 04:51 PM   #2
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Hello and Welcome to the forum. Others with more experience will chime in, but your fifth wheel is way to much for an F-150 to handle.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:25 PM   #3
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Since you're looking at the 28RDB, I'd guess you have children that will be camping with you. They will continue to grow (add weight to your truck passenger compartment) and want to pack heavier and larger things as they grow older. So, you're probably going to be looking at a crew cab truck as a tow vehicle. NONE of the half ton trucks crew cab trucks are going to have the payload to support a family of 4 or 5 people, a fifth wheel pin weight of 1700+ pounds and the hitch/cargo you'll be adding to the truck.

When you look at manufacturer's brochures, you get the "advertising division's contribution to truck specifications".... What that means is that Ford competes with GM and Chrysler and they, in turn try to "one up" Ford and each other.

So, the payload you see listed for the F150 is a "best case/base model" truck. Realistically, a 2017 F150 equipped with a crew cab, standard bed (6.5') with a 3.5 ecoboost in Lariat trim will have a payload of around 1600 pounds (and it goes down from there as you add options or accessories). The maximum trailer weight is advertised around 11,500 pounds, but the GCWR (combined truck/trailer maximum weight) will limit the trailer to what's left from the advertised truck GVW (let's say 7200) so with a GCWR of 16900 - 7200 (GVW) you could only tow a trailer weight of 9700 pounds. Don't be "lulled" into just reading the maximum in each column of the spec sheet. Use them to see how they inter-relate with each other.

We have a F250 diesel, and a 2014 Cougar XLite 27RKS which is just a "tad bit smaller" than the trailer you're considering. Typically with my DW, the dog (45 pounds), the hitch (150), extra cargo in the truck (100) and the trailer, we're almost at our GVW of 10,000 pounds. We couldn't tow our trailer with an F150 and remain below the payload, GVW and rear axle limits.

Typically our trailer when packed for a trip weighs in around 9000 to 9500 " pounds. The pin weight comes in around 1800 pounds because almost all the storage for heavy gear is forward of the axles which adds weight to the pin. You'll find that the 28RDB is very much the same.

If you're seriously considering a fifth wheel, by the time you get your family in the truck and add a hitch, a bit of cargo in the bed and a "ready to travel 28RDB" you're going to be pushing even an F250's GVW. With a family of more than two people, the toys kids want to take camping, the equipment you have to add to tow a fifth wheel and the trailer pin weight, you're almost looking at an F350 if you want a diesel or a F250 gas truck. An F150 is simply not adequate for that trailer and a family.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:32 PM   #4
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Welcome to the forum, and I have to agree with JimQ.....too much trailer for a 1/2Ton P.U. You are into the 3/4T range truck. I looked up the trailer that you are thinking about and the numbers are very close to what you have posted. Most companies advertised pin weight is regarding an empty trailer, and no one goes camping with an empty trailer......you know.....what's the point? Conventional wisdom is that 5ver pin weights are usually in the 20% range of the trailer, so you are looking at around 2000 lb for the pin. Then of course, your 5ver hitch and under frame mounting hardware are most likely going to put you in the 175 lb range. That alone will get you to almost 2200 lbs of weight going onto and in the truck/bed. I don't know of many....maybe no 1/2Ton trucks with that kind of payload capacity. And if I'm not mistaken, from about model year 2015 and up, the payload capacity doesn't include the driver either....just the truck and a full tank of fuel. So, looking at those numbers, driver, passenger, kids?, pets?, any and all cargo that might go in the bed of the truck....tools, firewood, generator, BBQ grill.....anything at all, and all of that takes away from your payload or Cargo Carrying Capacity (CCC). That number can be found on the driver's side door pillar and is usually a yellow sticker. That number is what the truck weighed when it left the factory and is based on the GVWR of the truck minus the weight of the truck itself and a full tank of fuel. Honestly, I'd be surprised if you had much more than 1500 to 1700 lbs of payload capacity for an F150. The one thing that is in your favor, you are not looking for anything fancy in the way of a truck. But remember this.....the more stripped down the truck is, the more payload you will have. A good example of this would be a 2 wheel drive XL model, regular cab, with basically no extra stuff on it...vs...A 4 wheel drive, crew cab, Lariat with all the goodies. Those two extremes could easily see 700 lbs payload difference...with the XL model obviously having more available payload. So, looking at the trailer that you are interested in and including a hitch, people, cargo, etc., you could easily need to have a payload capacity north of 3000 lbs....and that is clearly a bigger truck, more in line with a stripped down 3/4 ton with 2 wheel drive and a gas motor, not a diesel. I would probably be moving towards putting all of your numbers together, some based on what I've told you for pin weight, hitch weight, and then start adding up your own situation as far as cargo, number of passengers, etc.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:33 PM   #5
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^^^^x2 John pretty much nailed it.
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:38 PM   #6
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^^^^x2 John pretty much nailed it.
Hey......what about me....did I come close to nailing it too? I've had some very recent pretty hard lessons on having too small of a truck!
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Old 07-13-2017, 05:38 PM   #7
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Hi, I pulled a 2013 Cougar Lite 28 RDB with a 2010 Dodge Ram1500 Short box. The truck pulled with no problem, lots of power with the 5.7 Hemi, I had air bags with 20 lbs of air and had good year wrangler tires. The truck only squatted about 2 inches when I was hooked up.

With all that said, I did great on the prairies and in some mountains. However, when I went to Radium BC we went down a steep grade into the town, and it was white nuckle all the way. Not my idea of a good time. Coming out of the town on the same steep grade, it was a slow climb and a hot engine. After that trip, it was decided a 2500 diesel was to be the replacement for my 1500 to pull the trailer.
So in short, in my opinion, you need a 2500, or f250.
A wise purson posted on here,( sorry, I don't remember who), but they said" No one has ever said I wish I had more trailer for my truck". So bigger is better
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Old 07-13-2017, 06:39 PM   #8
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Wow! Thanks for all the great advice! So i've scratched the 150 off the list!

If I'm reading everything correctly, then as an example, the Ford F-250 Crew Cab 4x4 with a long box and 4.3 axle ratio has a GCWR of 22,000 and GVWR of 10,000, so this would probably be the minimum I would want to go? And again, this is just an example that i picked, final call is probably with the wife (DW=Dear Wife?) and kids, once i give them a few models to pick from that meet the required criteria. Its doubtful we'll go new either so these values won't coincide with what we look at but it gives me a better understanding of what to look for.

Another example is a 2011 ram 2500 which is roughly 8900 gvwr and gcwr of 20,000. This seems like it might just squeak by? if i'm right, this gives me ~1000 lbs of cargo in the truck itself, which includes gas, passengers and gear we want to load in it?

Now i need to load everyone up on a truck scale to see what we all weigh together.. The wife will love that..

Again, thanks so much for the help!
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by xrated View Post
Hey......what about me....did I come close to nailing it too? I've had some very recent pretty hard lessons on having too small of a truck!
Spot on too! Good job!

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Old 07-13-2017, 07:04 PM   #10
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Keep in mind ignore the advertising brochures. Look at the specific stickers on the truck you are considering and use those numbers. The stickers are real numbers and the brochures are vapor ware.

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Old 07-13-2017, 07:06 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by BlackNoir View Post
Wow! ...
Another example is a 2011 ram 2500 which is roughly 8900 gvwr and gcwr of 20,000. This seems like it might just squeak by? if i'm right, this gives me ~1000 lbs of cargo in the truck itself, which includes gas, passengers and gear we want to load in it? ...

BlackNoir
That truck will very likely weigh in at 7000+ pounds empty, with a GVW of 8900 and a pin weight of 1800 on the trailer, you'll have 100 pounds for your family and cargo, not 1000 pounds. You missed on the math on that one......
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Old 07-13-2017, 07:23 PM   #12
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Hey......what about me....did I come close to nailing it too? I've had some very recent pretty hard lessons on having too small of a truck!
I don't think sourdough was "ignoring you".... If you look at the post times, his post was about 1 minute after yours, so he very probably didn't see your post while he was typing his response....

Knowing what you've been through with trucks recently, if anyone is an "expert" in the potential to tow overweight, it's you. I'd call that "first hand experience" if ever there was any......
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:03 PM   #13
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ok i'm confused. I thought the shipping weight + carrying capacity of the 5th wheel was the max trailer weight, and if you combined that with the GVW, what you have left is the cargo weight you can carry when you subtract it from the GCWR. Like for the rv we're looking at:
20,000 - 8900(gvwr) - 7685(shipping weight) - carrying capacity(2315) = 1100(cargo)

I thought the pin weight cam into account when looking at the trucks payload capacity, so it should be ~2000? and for the 2011 ram i have the payload at above that.

What am i missing here for that pin weight? what do i need to adjust in my numbers?
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:48 PM   #14
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I don't think sourdough was "ignoring you".... If you look at the post times, his post was about 1 minute after yours, so he very probably didn't see your post while he was typing his response....
I know, I was just kidding about it!
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:53 PM   #15
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Hey......what about me....did I come close to nailing it too? I've had some very recent pretty hard lessons on having too small of a truck!


^^^^^x2 for you too!! Your post wasn't there when I posted mine or I didn't see it....x2
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Old 07-13-2017, 08:58 PM   #16
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On the Keystone website in the specs for each trailer are three weights. SHIPPING WEIGHT is the total pounds of that model trailer as it leaves the factory.
CARRYING CAPACITY is the amount of cargo you can add to the shipping weight before you reach the GVW.
HITCH WEIGHT is the amount of the SHIPPING WEIGHT that is on the hitch/pin.

So in the 28RDB the trailer (as it leaves the factory) weighs 7685 pounds. You can load up to 2315 pounds of cargo at which point your trailer will reach the GVW maximum which is 10,000 pounds. As the trailer leaves the factory, the pin will weigh 1475 pounds. That pin weight is a part of the 7685 shipping weight, so there will be 6210 pounds on the trailer axles and 1475 on the pin for a total of 7685. Doing a quick calculation, the pin weight is 19.2% of the total weight. Most fifth wheels range between 15% and 25%, so that model (empty) falls just about in the middle. If you could keep the percentage the same when fully loaded, at 10,000 pounds your pin weight would be roughly 1,920 pounds (19.2% of 10,000).

Based on your response, I think you're trying to add apples and oranges and subtract peaches to come up with a cargo figure. You can make a "fruit salad" that way, but you can't calculate a cargo capacity that way. You have to calculate the truck's capacity based on its GVW and the trailer's capacity based on its GVW. Then the two (truck weight and trailer weight), when added together, can't be more than the GCWR. You can't start with the GCWR and work backwards on the truck's figures to come up with the trailer's capacity. It won't work that way......
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:10 PM   #17
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Theses are the hardest threads to reply to as there's so many different variables to throw into the bowl. Like if you have kids and all the kids stuff plus say a few dogs you can tip the scales easily. It seems like you're on the right track though and I'm very interested in seeing what truck you (350) end up buying.
I just pulled into town last night and with all the hills and braking on corners and down grades I didn't sweat at all and I was very relaxed with the 350.
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Old 07-13-2017, 09:22 PM   #18
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Theses are the hardest threads to reply to as there's so many different variables to throw into the bowl. Like if you have kids and all the kids stuff plus say a few dogs you can tip the scales easily. It seems like you're on the right track though and I'm very interested in seeing what truck you (350) end up buying.
I just pulled into town last night and with all the hills and braking on corners and down grades I didn't sweat at all and I was very relaxed with the 350.
That's why I suggested that he use my numbers for the truck trailer info and then do his own math for how he is going use the truck trailer...in other words, what he has personally as far as cargo.....wife, kids, dog, firewood, BBQ, tools, etc.
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Old 07-14-2017, 01:37 AM   #19
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That's why I suggested that he use my numbers for the truck trailer info and then do his own math for how he is going use the truck trailer...in other words, what he has personally as far as cargo.....wife, kids, dog, firewood, BBQ, tools, etc.
Yup for us on the outside we really don't know about the last few hundred pnds that get loaded in. Everyone says that they have their weight covered should always add in a few hundred pounds. I'm sure that everyone including myself always go over our figures. I always go over with fishing gear, an extra kid etc.
Hence the 350. Go overkill with the truck and then there's no stress or worries.
Today I'm hooking up the trailer to the Tundra to hit a very close lake and I'll feel the braking and crosswinds.
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Old 07-14-2017, 03:22 AM   #20
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I think they should take the 250/2500 trucks off the market as they serve no useful purpose to the towing public. They weigh to much, are always over loaded, and horribly underbuilt as confirmed by this thread. Beware the 350's are next.
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