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Old 04-24-2011, 01:56 PM   #1
Beachnut
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Bought a "NEW" Keystone with undisclosed damage repair's?

What would YOU do???

We bought a "brand new" Keystone Outback 230 RS 6 months ago. I took it to a Keystone dealer nearer to my home for some warranty repairs, one of which was a decal that was peeling. (Not the Keystone dealer we purchased the trailer from). The very nice repair manager had to give me the bad news that the decal I was concerned about, that was peeling, was actually a "non stock" decal that the dealer who sold me the trailer, had put over a 3" spot they had repaired in the fiberglass. He also pointed out another non-stock decal, and a 2nd 2" hole / repair site on the "new" trailer saying that the repairs were probably holes due to some accident done to the fiberglass, possibly at the dealership. He said the repairs looked good, and sound, but they can not match the gel-coat shine / new look at the repair sites, so it is usual to cover them up with decals. Yet these decals are are not really even close to stock looking. They probably just had them lying around, and used them as they were close enough, for us not to really notice them until one of them was peeling off. The repair manager said I should take it up with the dealer who sold me the trailer, and that the repairs "should have been disclosed prior your purchase"!

Obviously The dealer who sold it to me was not forthright! Now I have a Damaged / repaired "new" trailer that I will have to disclose when I sell it, and it will decrease the re-sale value of my "New" trailer, not to mention the still peeling decal that the repair manager could not fix as it is a "non-stock item". (The dealership I bought the trailer from is a 2 hour drive away from my home).

The two repairs are on the trailer door, and the toy hauler door. (Removable items). This trailer has two roof vents, the one in the bathroom, a motorized fan vent, came with a max air type vent cover, while the other vent had none. We are starting to wonder if this trailer may have even been sold, and returned damaged, / traded in, before the title was sent into DMV?

We LOVE our "new" trailer and have made 6 trips in the last 6 months, for more than 8 weeks of camping time! But.....

What would you all do????
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:25 PM   #2
Me.Bikes.Dogs
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Because of the dollars involved, I'd talk to a lawyer to find out what my options are and get an understanding of the law in my state. Then when I talk to the dealer I bought it from I would be speaking from a position of power and knowledge. Because this dealer did what they did, they more than likely aren't going to grow a conscience and fess up.

The more you know about your legal rights, the better off you'll be.
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:32 PM   #3
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Because of the dollars involved, I'd talk to a lawyer to find out what my options are and get an understanding of the law in my state. Then when I talk to the dealer I bought it from I would be speaking from a position of power and knowledge. Because this dealer did what they did, they more than likely aren't going to grow a conscience and fess up.

The more you know about your legal rights, the better off you'll be.
I think an hour of consultation with a lawyer would be a good investment. You need to know what your rights are, if you in fact have any, relative to the disclosure laws in your state. if it was sold but returned before it could be titled, the application would have been notarized and that would leave a record somewhere. If title had been applied for, and the dealer admittedly did repairs on the trailer, it would be a hard sell to prove he sold to you as new.
At any rate, if you paid for a new trailer, I think you are entitled to one that did not have non-diclosed repairs done to it.
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Old 04-24-2011, 02:51 PM   #4
Festus2
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If your RV had been sold previously surely there must be some kind of paper trail that can be traced and verified. Since the two holes are in 2 separate doors, is there any likelihood of having both doors replaced- at no cost to you - with new ones that have the proper, matching decals? If they are replaced with new ones, then that should not detract from the resale value of your unit.
Is there any way of you verifying who carried out these two "cover up jobs"? From your description, it seems that it was the dealer who sold you the trailer.
If you haven't already done so, I would suggest that, from now on, you keep detailed records of each and every conversation, emails, phone calls, and all other communication regarding this issue.
Good luck with this and keep us posted. We can all learn from this unfortunate experience you are going through.
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:02 PM   #5
jq1031
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Originally Posted by Beachnut View Post
What would YOU do???

We bought a "brand new" Keystone Outback 230 RS 6 months ago. I took it to a Keystone dealer nearer to my home for some warranty repairs, one of which was a decal that was peeling. (Not the Keystone dealer we purchased the trailer from). The very nice repair manager had to give me the bad news that the decal I was concerned about, that was peeling, was actually a "non stock" decal that the dealer who sold me the trailer, had put over a 3" spot they had repaired in the fiberglass. He also pointed out another non-stock decal, and a 2nd 2" hole / repair site on the "new" trailer saying that the repairs were probably holes due to some accident done to the fiberglass, possibly at the dealership. He said the repairs looked good, and sound, but they can not match the gel-coat shine / new look at the repair sites, so it is usual to cover them up with decals. Yet these decals are are not really even close to stock looking. They probably just had them lying around, and used them as they were close enough, for us not to really notice them until one of them was peeling off. The repair manager said I should take it up with the dealer who sold me the trailer, and that the repairs "should have been disclosed prior your purchase"!

Obviously The dealer who sold it to me was not forthright! Now I have a Damaged / repaired "new" trailer that I will have to disclose when I sell it, and it will decrease the re-sale value of my "New" trailer, not to mention the still peeling decal that the repair manager could not fix as it is a "non-stock item". (The dealership I bought the trailer from is a 2 hour drive away from my home).

The two repairs are on the trailer door, and the toy hauler door. (Removable items). This trailer has two roof vents, the one in the bathroom, a motorized fan vent, came with a max air type vent cover, while the other vent had none. We are starting to wonder if this trailer may have even been sold, and returned damaged, / traded in, before the title was sent into DMV?

We LOVE our "new" trailer and have made 6 trips in the last 6 months, for more than 8 weeks of camping time! But.....

What would you all do????
So what did the selling dealer have to say about this? I presumed you contacted him or them!!
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:07 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Festus2 View Post
If your RV had been sold previously surely there must be some kind of paper trail that can be traced and verified. Since the two holes are in 2 separate doors, is there any likelihood of having both doors replaced- at no cost to you - with new ones that have the proper, matching decals? If they are replaced with new ones, then that should not detract from the resale value of your unit.
Is there any way of you verifying who carried out these two "cover up jobs"? From your description, it seems that it was the dealer who sold you the trailer.
If you haven't already done so, I would suggest that, from now on, you keep detailed records of each and every conversation, emails, phone calls, and all other communication regarding this issue.
Good luck with this and keep us posted. We can all learn from this unfortunate experience you are going through.
I agree. I think it's up to you to establish and maintain a paper trail. I don't think you will be able to count on the selling dealer to do it. I would also get Keystone in the loop if you have not already done so. And don't stop with the explanation you get from the receptionist that answers the telephone. Push till you get to someone who says "I am the boss". If the damage was a carry over from a production screw-up, then KS should have replaced the doors. if it was damaged en-route to delivery, the carrier should have covered it under liability coverage. If the dealer did it and tried to hide it after the fact, then Keystone definitily needs to know about that, as it is a reflection on them as well as the dealer if it should have been a warranty issue.
DMV should have the vin on file. That will answer a lot od questions pretty quick.
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Old 04-24-2011, 03:27 PM   #7
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Thank you all for your fast replies!

When we found out about these damages, my wife and I both were thinking "what would make it right with us". Cash is always nice, but your left with peeling decals, and decreased resale value. The idea of having them replace both the trailer door, and toy hauler door, with the STOCK matching decals on them would make the trailer "new" again, as the repairs would be gone. The repair manager who informed us of these past repairs said just the decal package alone for our trailer is very costly, and that is why the dealer probably used what ever they had on hand, that was a semi close match. I can not imagine what replacing both doors, with decals would cost!

It really should NOT be our problem, yet it is, what it is... The advise to gather as much info as possible before talking to the dealer is what we are doing. I am going to call the consumer affairs office tomorrow, (we live in California), to see what they say, and the Better Business Bureau. I already called our AAA insurance DMV, (Department of motor vehicle), they looked at the trailers DMV record, and could not see any notations of any previous sales on the trailer and said we were the first titled owners. I will also call Keystone tomorrow and ask if they ever put on max air type vent covers at the factory, on just one of two vents on a trailer. Then I will ask them what they think of their dealer pulling a fast one on us...

We have owned three new trailers in the past 28 years, a Starcraft, a Rockwood, and now this Keystone. We love this Keystone Outback, yet we have never had to deal with such a problem on the other brands of trailers... We will have to see how this all pans out.... (Yes, i am a gold prospector).

Beachnut
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Old 04-26-2011, 05:59 PM   #8
W.E.BGood
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Just to address one point that you mentioned about it having only one vent cover, our 2011 Outback 250RS is the same way, only the bathroom powered-vent towards the front has a cover, the non-powered mid-trailer mounted one does not. Good luck. Regards, BGood
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Old 04-27-2011, 05:11 PM   #9
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I find it amazing that the dealer would do warranty work on a unit purchased elsewhere. Makes me wonder why you did not buy at the dealer that was "closer".
Most dealers won't perform warranty work on units purchased elsewhere.
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Old 04-27-2011, 07:24 PM   #10
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I find it amazing that the dealer would do warranty work on a unit purchased elsewhere. Makes me wonder why you did not buy at the dealer that was "closer".
Most dealers won't perform warranty work on units purchased elsewhere.
Keystone Customer Service arranged warranty work from a different dealer than I purchased my trailer from. This different dealer was also closer to my home. I don't think it is too uncommon as they all bill Keystone for the repairs for the warranty work. Granted, this different dealer did also sell some Keystone products although not the same as what I needed repairs on.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:57 PM   #11
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"New"Trailer

First, you need a lawyer, sooner is better. This kind of obfuscation is fraud --- period. Whether you get a cash settlement or a new trailer, what is important is that you get a fair settlement. To do that you may have to go to court.

As far as warranty work goes, the notion that dealers other than the one you bought it from is simply NOT TRUE! Authorized dealers agree to undertake warranty work on behalf of the manufacturer no matter where the trailer was purchased. If they refuse they can lose their dealership. If a dealer tells you this simply tell them that you are calling the manufacturer (preferably from a cell phone in front of the dealer rep). They will backpedal so fast that they might trip over their own feet.

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Old 05-20-2011, 05:22 AM   #12
Bob Landry
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First, you need a lawyer, sooner is better. This kind of obfuscation is fraud --- period. Whether you get a cash settlement or a new trailer, what is important is that you get a fair settlement. To do that you may have to go to court.

As far as warranty work goes, the notion that dealers other than the one you bought it from is simply NOT TRUE! Authorized dealers agree to undertake warranty work on behalf of the manufacturer no matter where the trailer was purchased. If they refuse they can lose their dealership. If a dealer tells you this simply tell them that you are calling the manufacturer (preferably from a cell phone in front of the dealer rep). They will backpedal so fast that they might trip over their own feet.

John
I've read many posts from people claiming that a non-selling dealer will not do warranty work, but no one has substantiated that fact. Sorry, but just because you heard something during a discussion over a beer doesn't make it fact. But then, there's a lot of that on this forum.

The reality is that dealership sales and service departments work on separate P&L and are individually responsible to the boss for revenue generation. I don't think there is a service manager worth his salt that is going to walk away from money on the table.
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Old 05-20-2011, 06:42 AM   #13
jq1031
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I agree with the above posts. I've had the experience where a dealer did the work but it took me 4 weeks of waiting for an appointment.
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Old 05-20-2011, 08:53 AM   #14
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Warranty

I certainly agree that there are dealers who will "slow walk" warranty repairs for non customers. In my view that is unethical although they can probably get away with it.

I, for one, would stay away from a dealer who had a reputation for that kind of performance. It id really in the manufacturers to see that all their dealers support the product to the highest standard.

At one point in my career I owned a audio systems business where I did warranty work for more than 20 manufacturers. Any reports to the manufacturers rep about that sort of shenanigans would be taken very seriously and the offender put on notice that repeats would result in termination.

It is true that warranty work typically does not pay as well as non warranty but the pay off is in reputation down the road. Sadly some dealers do not think that far ahead.
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Old 06-15-2011, 03:29 PM   #15
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Update to repair work

Well I just got the call from my local Keystone repair manager, (Cliff at Sky River RV in Pismo Beach, CA). He told me that Robyne Hakes at Keystone has approved all of my repairs except for the broken TV! This is fantastic news to me that Keystone is going to back up their product, and step in where the dealer was obviously very shady, (Barber RV in Ventura, read first post of thread). A BIG THANK YOU out to Robyne Hakes. I have sent Robyn an email about the broken TV. Since it broke after only being 6 months old, and rarely ever used, maybe it can also be replaced. It is manufactured by Skyworks, which had all of a 90 day warranty covering it. I thought Keystone had a full year "bumper to bumper" warranty on the trailer though???

I am so happy i did not have to go to court to get the damaged and repaired door's replaced!!! That makes this issue about 85% resolved!

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Old 07-17-2011, 09:27 AM   #16
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Another update on the above thread..

The TV that came with our Outback turned out to NOT be a usual stock Keystone product.

The WHOLE story has mostly become known through this process. It would seem that our "new" trailer was one of the trailers that Barber RV in Ventura, CA had vandalized and broken into while it was for sale, sitting on their lot. Someone came in, hopped a fence, and broke into some, and vandalized other trailers. The two holes on our doors look about the size and shape of a hammer head. (See earlier posts about undisclosed damaged and repaired doors). I guess our "new" trailer was one that was broken into, and had the TV stolen out of it. So when we bought the "new" trailer, Barber RV had nicley replaced the stock TV with a "Skyworth" TV / DVD combo unit that seemed real nice until it broke, after about the 6th time it was used, and 1 month past it's 90 day manufacturers warranty period!

Keystone warrants their TV's for a year, along with the rest of the trailer, and they were nice enough to extend us the replacement cost of the stock TV which was $149.00. We put that towards the Naxa NTD-2252 TV/DVD combo that also works on 12vdc. We also purchased a "Square Trade Warranty" for $40 so this replacement TV/DVD is covered for 4 years!

As soon as the replacement doors arrive, and are installed, this whole issue will be very well resolved!!! Thank You so much to Robyne Hakes in the warranty department with Keystone for helping to resolve all this mess, and making Keystone the quality company that it is!!

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Old 07-27-2011, 07:46 AM   #17
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No 12-Month Bumper-to-Bumper Warranty

Regarding the belief that Keystone provides a 12-month bumper-to-bumper warranty, I have had two different dealers tell me that Keystone warrants the following items for only 6 months:

Slideout alignment
Roof caulking

I also had a dealer tell me that a black tank gate valve failure due to "debris" in it was not covered. I asked what was meant by "debris", and they said toilet paper.

However, I have not been able to find these limitations listed in the owner's manual. Luckily, my gate valve problem was not due to debris and the other two issues were discovered inside the first 6 months of ownership.
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Old 07-27-2011, 04:28 PM   #18
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Beachnut, Howdy;

Good to hear some positave results. Glad that things have worked out for you in such a positave way..

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Old 07-27-2011, 06:08 PM   #19
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Thanks for the positive resolve Beachnut....... good to hear Keystone is standup.
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Old 11-07-2011, 05:03 PM   #20
Beachnut
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Our trailer is back to "new" again!!! Thanks to Keystone

To finish off this thread that I started, Robyne Hakes, and Keystone have replaced both the entrance door, and the Toy hauler door. ALL my repairs are completed, and the trailer is in the "New" condition it was said to be when it was sold to me! The Toy hauler door had to be upgraded to the newer 2011 - 12 style so Cliff at Sky River RV in Pismo Beach CA had to even replace the entire lower hinge assembly!

If you are into reading... Below is the letter I sent to Robyn Hakes supervisor, (Mr. Nusbaum), thanking him for such a great job, and a great employee!!! All in all, the total repairs to my trailer were in the THOUSANDS of dollars! So as far as customer service at Keystone goes, they back up their product with not only words, but actions!!!


Dear Mr. Nusbaum.

This is Mike Dutra. I asked an employee of yours, Robyne Hakes, who I might write to concerning the work she has done, and Robyne gave me your name...

In order for you to fully understand how much Robyne has helped us, I would have to go through the long history of what brought us to this point. But trying to write that out in a brief paragraph, so as not to bore you, is impossible... So let me just say...

Robyne Hakes has represented Keystone in a manner that is rarely EVER seen these days! I am so thankful that when I called Keystone customer service that Robyne answered the phone... She has been very understanding, helpful, and Kind. She has taken a very, VERY BAD experience, that would have normally landed us in the court system, and turned it around into "an experience of surprise", that there are such good companies still out there in this day and age! This problem all started, and was caused by the Keystone dealer who sold us our "new" trailer, Barber R.V. in Ventura, CA.. All of our problem was completely the dealers fault, not Keystones, yet Robyne, and Keystone, have come to our rescue! She, and your company have stood behind your product, and made it all right! Robyne took the situation, and turned it around into something where you have a devoted happy repeat customer, wanting to tell everyone what a fantastic company Keystone is, rather than an angry, disgruntled negative advocate!

I have owned 2 other RV's in my life, a Starcraft, and a Rockwood. Your company has far surpassed both of those in stature by how Robyne Hakes, and Keystone have handled all this! I only wish other companies would realize how much value there is in true customer satisfaction, and positive word of mouth. It equals more sales, and more happy campers! I can only hope you have many, many, other employees as nice, friendly, and helpful as Robyne Hakes has been to us. I know from working with AT&T for 30 years that you get many,many more negative feed-backs from customers, than from customers who are willing to actually write something positive. Even when an employee is doing a good job, very few ever reflect that back to the company. Well, I hope by now you have heard loud and clear, this is one customer that was saved by the GREAT job Robyne Hakes has done, representing a surprisingly Great company!

THANK YOU

Sincerely

Mike Dutra


P.S. I should not forget the FANTASTIC JOB that the service repair manager Cliff, at Sky River RV in Pismo Beach CA. is doing on our repairs. Cliff does some REALLY FINE, QUALITY repair work! He really knows his stuff, and was ever so nice when he told us of the problems on our trailer back in May, that started all this process. Maybe that should be another letter, but addressed to whom? I am so thankful I was blessed to have such a great "local" Keystone dealer open up less than 2 miles from my house, especially since I refuse to go back to Barber RV in Ventura, CA!
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