Hughes Autoformers

[flybouy]

Danny the info is great. I just don't want anyone reading thru this to walk away thinking "OMG, I'm going to end up going to jail for using this illegal device".

BAs a side note, I've had the occasion over several decades working with the construction industry to meet two "code writers" in 2 different states. I'll just say I wasn't impressed. In both instances they attempted to "enforce the code" which they authored incorrectly. The codes are what must be abided by when adopted be whatever governing body adopts it and it's legislated into law. When I see the code, in writing, that's been adopted and legally binding that specifies the Hughes Autoformer as illegal then I won't use it. Until then, I consider it more "static".

JMHO

[Laredo Tugger]

Quote by sourdough:
" But, in the end, it's better to be aware than be caught unaware IMO."

This didn't happen when Hughes got a US Patent for their products?
Somebody had to approve the use of Autoformers in RV parks.
Now they want to change the rules with no evidence to back it up?
What does the NEC base this "ruling" on? The fact that 10 Autoformers in a row will create an open end neutral to an end user? Really? Pretty lame, real lame.

I think the competition making problems for Hughes is a more plausible theory.
RMc

[JRTJH]

I wonder if it's more a situation of "name association" rather than "equipment functionality" ????

I remember when I was a kid (and a pretty well behaved one at that) and I always got called into the principal's office every time my cousin (same last name) did something.... He was "the hell raiser in the family" and was always in trouble. People would report what he did by saying, "That Hughes kid did....." and "just by name association" I became guilty until proven innocent...

NEC prohibits "autotransformers" and Hughes builds a "autoformer"... I wonder if they had named it the Hughes AutoRegulator" if all this would be a "non starter" ?????

[sourdough]

I'm no expert but I highly doubt the U.S. Patent office researches the usefulness of an application or if it complies with the thousands of legalities that it might encounter. They patent it if warranted, the inventor/designer then has to determine the market and legalities. The NEC is a "living" code/regulation that evolves as technologies evolve. The reg prohibiting "autoformers" was explicit if what was quoted was correct.

Given the above and the the NEC is "the" electrical code/ordinance/law in many, if not most municipalities, it is moot what we think or why we think it came about. It is there. At this moment it appears the regulation is new and probably unheard of in cities. As I mentioned, that may change as cities meet and compare notes in conferences (Texas Municipal League comes to mind) etc., advisories sent out by the NEC; who knows but lots of folks pay attention to the NEC.

As I have mentioned, it is apparently there and so being it is now a regulation in lots of cities. What they do with it I have no idea. My goal was to share that info so that owners, or potential owners, would be aware and not be caught with their pants down in some situation, or, just dig into it to find all the gritty details. And if anyone does dig in please share. I was seriously considering one (I would prefer having one than having the EMS just shut me down) but I'm gonna let this air out a bit.

[Sarge2]

My thoughts.... unless there was to be some monumental power overload and blackout, and, they could trace it back to a specific RV park as the cause of said power blackout, I doubt very seriously that you would have anyone, be it utility company, local municipal inspector or certainly any law enforcement agency knocking at the RV park office door demanding to know who was running autoformers in their park causing this blackout.....
As a LEO, the thought of some DTE power guy requesting that we follow him to some RV park to "apprehend" this offender... We'd laugh him out of the department... JMHO

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by Sarge2

My thoughts.... unless there was to be some monumental power overload and blackout, and, they could trace it back to a specific RV park as the cause of said power blackout, I doubt very seriously that you would have anyone, be it utility company, local municipal inspector or certainly any law enforcement agency knocking at the RV park office door demanding to know who was running autoformers in their park causing this blackout.....
As a LEO, the thought of some DTE power guy requesting that we follow him to some RV park to "apprehend" this offender... We'd laugh him out of the department... JMHO

With the ability to mount/install the autoformer inside the rig, who would even know by walking or driving by? (I had a vision of a guy in a golf cart cruising the park slowly in the late afternoon, looking for grey boxes on the ground next to the pedestal...)

I wouldn't mind one either, Danny. But I've already have hundreds invested in the Southwire system. Besides, the Southwire also tells me what faults have happened, what the amp draw is at that moment and what the incoming voltage is (as well as hertz). Now, if the autoformer did all that as well, then I'd dive in and sell off what I already have.

Regarding the previous post above that provides a link to a guy's website where he is going to test the Hughes... that will be interesting. He asked Hughes in his website to send him one to test. If Hughes has nothing to hide, then maybe they'll send him one. Hughes sounds like they are very certain of their product, so maybe they aren't paying much attention to him and his desire to test it out and put it through an unbiased set of electrical tests.

[Laredo Tugger]

Bill-2020,
The person i have been in contact with at Hughes is listed as the general manager. He told me they had sent some of their units to Mike Sokol for testing a while back and they have been waiting for his report which is due anytime.
Danny, Actually the wording in the Codebook (Post#14) states:
"You cannot use autotransformers with RVs [551.20(E)]."
John may be correct on the "verbiage" and the NEC code may be addressing a completely different apparatus associated with the parks grid system. Who knows? If you read some of the other directives in that document, I am not sure all parks and RVs are in compliance with some of those other regulations.
I will continue to use my Autoformer until directed otherwise. Somehow I don't think I will live to see the day, but stranger things have happened.
Thanks for your expertise everyone,
RMc

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by Laredo Tugger

Bill-2020,
The person i have been in contact with at Hughes is listed as the general manager. He told me they had sent some of their units to Mike Sokol for testing a while back and they have been waiting for his report which is due anytime.
Danny, Actually the wording in the Codebook (Post#14) states:
"You cannot use autotransformers with RVs [551.20(E)]."
John may be correct on the "verbiage" and the NEC code may be addressing a completely different apparatus associated with the parks grid system. Who knows? If you read some of the other directives in that document, I am not sure all parks and RVs are in compliance with some of those other regulations.
I will continue to use my Autoformer until directed otherwise. Somehow I don't think I will live to see the day, but stranger things have happened.
Thanks for your expertise everyone,
RMc

And I'm with you.....but, we sure live in some strange times right now. If, and I repeat IF, this came up on the radar at some time I figure at my age it will be long past my "expiration date".

[travelin texans]

Now we can add another never ending item debate to the list of trucks, tires, hitches, sewer hoses & batteries.
I'd say if you're happy with whatever EMS system you have or want, GO FOR IT, as long as it's an EMS & not just a surge protector.

[flybouy]

All this noise over "regulatory enforcement", "targeted rv parks in the code" makes me chuckle. Here's a few of my observations:

Code Enforcement
The only person who enforces building codes are building inspectors, whatever the governing body call their dept can vary. Some states it's Dept. Of Life & Safety, others it's the Building Dept., many it's Zoning and Permitting. Some locations don't have enough inspectors and have "third party inspectors" which may be the Master Plumber at "Joe's Plumbing and HVAC Co." As your plumbing/mechanical inspector.

Fire codes typically are inspected by a Fire Chief or separate division of a larger Fire Dept. in urban or high density population areas. To my knowledge, typically the only on going (yearly inspections) are Fire and Elevators. Again, typically, there are exceptions. NYC has HVAC yearly inspections and permits (a tag on the equipment like most states have on signs) and NYC has what folks call "Sound Police". They run around with a sound meter and if your roof top equipment is too loud and disturbing the condo next building over....

It's never the Police, and certainly NOT the landlord (or CG manager if you wish) that enforce codes. They do not have the expertise, knowledge of, nor authority to conduct code enforcement. I can't begin to tell you how many CGs I've been in that don't even comply with the simplest of codes... providing a female threaded screw end on the sewer line. How many times have you removed a rock to place your sewer hose in the inlet then placed the rock over your fitting to hold it in? I think the kids mowing the grass use the fitting as a mower blade stress test.

What I can say with conviction is that no CG owner would spend the incredible amount of money it would require to monitor all those electric pedestals in a CG. If you think about the variables in the electrical usage of a CG it's difficult to track without software (again, spending considerable money) to compensate for occupancy, 50 vs 30 Amp vs 20 Amp usage on the same circuit, and the weather/temp influences.

The other major factor in enforcement of code enforcement is what triggers the enforcement. Most inspectors work 5 days/wk ~8 hr/day. Most folks camp on weekends. I can hear the laughter now when the CG owner/manager calls up on a Friday night to complain about an "autoformer plugged in". The code enforcement folks have enough to do with their inspection schedules and occasional forensic work. They don't need to "go around looking for issues".

As for an "overzealous" CG owner/manager tramping thru sites inspecting electrical connectionS? Sorry, just don't see it happening. I don't think they would keep their customers very long. And let's be realistic, riding around on a golf cart to "visualize" a gray box setting on the ground? " Excuse me! Can you move your chair and beer cooler so I can see around the power pedestal!" Yeah right.

So, I apologize for this lengthy post but my guess would be some code writing folks for whatever reason executed this. Just a guess but I'd be surprised if Hughes doesn't spend a ton of money in legal fees to protect their interests. And as is always the case, the consumer will pay for these antics as we always do.

God bless America.

[Sarge2]

Flybouy I'll give you an Amen on the post...

[sourdough]

Marshall I agree with you.....but the topic generated some lively, thoughtful conversation. Something we all need to rouse ourselves out of this induced, semi catatonic covid state....

In all honesty I would think it would be a long way down the road, after a lot of caterwalling, before anyone would actually see anything come of this; even if it is left intact.....hmmm, unless some state(s) began to have constant, recurring power shortages/brownouts and began to stretch even further to find creative ways to fill the coffers.....

[Bill-2020]

Originally Posted by sourdough

.....hmmm, unless some state(s) began to have constant, recurring power shortages/brownouts and began to stretch even further to find creative ways to fill the coffers.....

California comes to mind. My mother was living in Paradise when the town went up in flames a few years ago. Her home was barley spared and she’s dealt with the purposeful power outages and new fires this year. She had enough and moved closer to family in WI/MN. Bye bye California!

[kcamp99186]

I have no irons in this fire, but from my days as a tech, you are correct. There is no free power. VA (voltamps) in equals VA out with some minor losses. However, if their claim of increased efficiency due to consistently constant voltage is true, there could be less power used due to this effect. Also if the transformer windings are indeed separated they do not have an auto transformer and by NEC Code are not illegal by the specific code shown. Interesting and informative comments on an item I've never had interest in.

[JRTJH]

Addressing the "free power" (never gonna happen) and "increased economy"...

My guess would be that it's not "actual less power used" but rather "more efficient use of available power"... If you think about the voltsxamps=watts, as voltage goes down, amps goes up to maintain the wattage use.... What "happens in any motor circuit" when voltage drops and amperage goes up, is that heat increases. Heat is "energy waste" and anyone who has "burned up a motor in a brown-out knows how expensive it is to replace a burned up motor...

So, to address the "saves energy" claim, chances are that Hughes is suggesting that when voltage is correct, amperage is at the minimum, and the system produces less "heat" which is wasted energy..... Plus, it's much more "efficient" to operate a motor when it's not overheated" making it less expensive to replace because it lasts longer......

Just one more perspective on "wasted energy in heat" vs "economic energe management through voltage regulation"....

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by sourdough

If it were me, and I had a Hughes Autoformer.....and hurry, I think I want to get one....

Just don't get a high-capacity semiauto-transformer. Nobody needs one of those things.

[fulltilt]

Doesn't change a damn thing for me, I have been using a Hughes 50 amp for years, I have it "Hard wired" in between the panel & the cabtire coming in. I fabricated a mount from aluminum angle & mounted two 4 1/8" square splice boxes inside the basement of the 5'er. there are other brands of trailers out there that come with them in there supply feeds from the factory.

[ChuckS]

Love this guys testing info on the Huges auto transformer... good read for those who wanna learn more....

https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...TNGo-mihYuB6V4

[Bill-2020]

[QUOTE=ChuckS;415675]Love this guys testing info on the Huges auto transformer... good read for those who wanna learn more....

The comments below the article bring up some other interesting thoughts, and Mike has responded to most of them. More to come it seems... Southwire (Surge Guard) also makes one.

https://rvpower.southwire.com/produc...ge-regulators/

[CedarCreekWoody]

I agree, you can't use more power than the pedestal breaker can supply. But if you have several campers pulling less than the maximum power it could happen. If there is a voltage drop the autoformers would each pull additional power to boost the voltage. With several RVs the additional power draw could add up.