Coaching the Fifth-wheel Backing Process

[johnnybadger]

I apologize in advance for the length of this post. But it is the only way I can think of to get your help in a way that is the easiest for you to give it. The topic is "Backing a FW".


Quick background: We are relatively new to RVing with our 34’ Cougar - Geraldine (August 2020; three trips until we put it storage). But back in the 80’s, we started a 30+-year love affair with boating. For over five years I was a “master” at backing our 20-foot runabout trailer anywhere I needed to put it. We then went on to Lake Michigan capable, twin engine (gas and diesel) “yachts”. Sold our 45’ Sea Ray in the fall of 2017. I was able to bring these boats in and out of slips, gas docks, etc. with the greatest of ease.


So what’s my point? Why do I turn into a puddle of sweat when it comes to backing up Geraldine in a campground? I have practiced in empty parking lots, I have watched all the YouTube videos, and I have started “practicing” using a semi-driver App on my iPad, at home, in the WI winter. What I need help with is a better understanding of the who, what, where, when and why of the backing process: when to cause Geraldine to start to turn, how long do I keep the wheel “jacked”, when do I start to “chase”, and when do I start to “get under it”? (I am purposely using terms brought forth in many of the instructional videos.) I know I will never be "perfect", but I just want to be OK, or just better than terrible.



We are getting ready to head out again on March 1 to spend the next six weeks on the Gulf Coast in and around FL and AL. I promise you that I will gladly take any particles of advice you could offer so that I only sweat mildly during this trip.



Again, I apologize for the length and the elementary level of my question. I am just hoping that the many experienced 5ers will take pity on the poor, old retiree. I will forever be in your debt .

[Camping family]

While to start with I am not an expert at all. Haven’t been doing it very long since we just bought our 5 th wheel last year. But I had the same problem to start with. Then I had a friend of mine who has been driving big rig trucks for years give me some lessons. This is what I found that works for me. I back up from the drivers side that way I can see the entire side of the camper. Slow and easy is the key for me very slow. I get about 1 foot from the side of the road then start backing up slow. When the end of the camper reaches the entry to the site I start turning watch how the camper goes. As I’m backing in slowly I adjust which way the back is going. Don’t let it go to much to one side or the other. If you have to pull up a little to straighten it out. Then continue to back up slowly making adjustments as needed. It will take a few times to see how your camper reacts to turns and it won’t be long you will be doing it like a pro.
Another thing always before backing in get out and check the site look for anything that might be in the way and don’t forget to look up. Checking for tree branches that may hit the AC or sun lights on top. If you can have someone behind you watching. Remember slow is the key very slow and don’t let those who are in a hurry bother you. Remember it’s your rig if you bang it up it’s your repair Bill not there’s. Hope this helps I’m sure you will get other posts from those who have more experience then I as I did when doesn’t started. But I took their advise and just kept practicing. When in sought go with a pull through.

[chuckster57]

The truck with a fiver is turn the steering wheel the opposite direction you want the back of the trailer to go. Follow it earlier than you would with a bumper pull. Nothing wrong with a little correction using forward gears.

I’ve been hauling/backing fifth wheel trailers since my first in 1989, and I still find myself doing minor corrections as I back in. Unless you do it everyday you get Rusty. No shame!! Try moving them around with a forklift and then a crew cab long bed.

[flybouy]

It's impossible for anyone to tell you what you are doing incorrectly from their computer chair. It sounds as if the "self taught" approached has been unsatisfactory to you so have you thought of having someone with experience ride along and teach you? A "hands on" instructor may be required in your case to gain the experience and confidence that you seek.Everyone learns at different rates and with different methodologies. Some folks are visual and some folks only understand withy step by step verbal instruction. Its all good, you just need to find what suits your needs.

I'd suggest reaching out to some truck driving schools in your area or give the dealer a call and see if they can recommend someone.

[xrated]

One thing that I learn about 45 years ago while backing a trailer, and this applies to any trailer....tow behind or 5th wheel trailer....is to use the bottom of the steering wheel of the tow vehicle (truck in this case) as your "indicator". What I mean by that is imagine the bottom part of your steering wheel with an arrow pointing both left and right <------> Move the bottom of the steering wheel in the direction that you want the back of the trailer to go. Using this method, you don't have to stop and think.....OK if I move the steering wheel this way, the trailer will go the opposite way...or vice versa. This method is such that the back of the trailer will go the direction that the arrow is moving...but always use the bottom of the steering wheel as your reference for direction.

Because of the location of the truck/trailer pivot point being in the bed of the truck vs. at the back of the truck on a tow behind, the actual turning motion of the trailer is a bit delayed when compared to a tow behind, so you have to start the turn a little sooner than you would with a tow behind.

I'm going to link a video for you that a couple named Chad and Tara have made that to me, was very helpful. The name of their site is called Changing Lanes and it's definitely worth a watch.....or three or four.

https://changinglanesrv.com/towing/

[BauerAP]

After taking a TDA(tractor drawn aerial or tiller) class the terms that were used that might make the most sense are push and chase. They hammered in two ideas. The 5th wheel is the “center of the universe” and less is more especially as the tillerman. Slightly unrelated because you cannot steer the rear end but can definitely be the case when backing a 5er.
A push would be going towards a jackknife or steering the trailer towards the front bumper of the truck.
Think of pushing the back of the trailer the direction you want it to go.
A chase is the trailer and truck following each other or eventually coming back to center or being “in-line” once you pass center you are back to the push.
I’m personally a fan of always backing over my left shoulder unless absolutely impossible. That way I can see all the way down the side. Know your equipment. By saying that I mean if my drivers side wheels are in a certain location I inherently know where the opposite side of the trailer is.
Setup can make or break you and the few inches you can gain with the proper pull up can buy you feet on the other end.
When getting into a spot or driveway(in this instance over left shoulder) I will start as far to the right as possible approaching and then get as close to the site as possible on the left. Once the 5th wheel hits the far side of the driveway turn back right and let the trailer start getting into the spot. Before you come to a stop when the tail of the trailer is just beyond the driveway turn your wheels to start your push. Push hard at first or have your wheels at lock and when the tail of trailer starts to come past the center of the site let off the push.
Usually around the time the tires come off the asphalt you will be chasing at full lock.
At this point it will be push/chase/push/chase...this is where less can be more. Small adjustments can be a lot more beneficial than trying to move the trailer over feet at a time.
Slow and methodical is the way I prefer and even with a spotter sometimes I get out a get a sense of where I am so I can mentally plan what needs to happen.
This may have been helpful and it may have been as helpful as a backing app would be for me. Just another perspective and what works for me.
It’s definitely more frustrating to the one that has difficulty backing in for 5 minutes than the camper waiting in the truck for 5 minutes. I’m not sure of your difficulty but if it ever gets that bad make a loop around the campground and take a breath and start over.

[captcolour]

Originally Posted by xrated

One thing that I learn about 45 years ago while backing a trailer, and this applies to any trailer....tow behind or 5th wheel trailer....is to use the bottom of the steering wheel of the tow vehicle (truck in this case) as your "indicator". What I mean by that is imagine the bottom part of your steering wheel with an arrow pointing both left and right <------> Move the bottom of the steering wheel in the direction that you want the back of the trailer to go. Using this method, you don't have to stop and think.....OK if I move the steering wheel this way, the trailer will go the opposite way...or vice versa. This method is such that the back of the trailer will go the direction that the arrow is moving...but always use the bottom of the steering wheel as your reference for direction.

I do the same. My hand on the wheel goes on the bottom of the wheel and I steer from there, turning the wheel in the direction you want the back of the trailer to go.

[johnnybadger]

Thank you Bob, Chuckster, Marshall,& Xrated. Marshall, I did have a friend of mine who used be an OTR driver sit in a couple times during my practicing. I was full of the YouTube advice. He was not in agreement with one video that suggests I need to turn the wheel fully to the left (from the perspective of the bottom of the wheel) and then turn the wheel fully to the right (again from the perspective of the bottom of the wheel) when the back of the trailer starts to enter the campsite. My big learning from my time with Pete was, if possible, to use the "scoop" approach like one of the videos suggests. That way the back of the trailer is starting to be aligned with entry to the site. Bob, thanks for the "go super slow" advice. Reflecting on my short experience tells me that was probably part of my problem.


At our first site in our trip to the Smoky Mtns. last fall, I was able to get an experienced camper to talk me into a very tight site. His advice was to break the process into two steps. The objective of the first step is to get the butt of the trailer into the site. It doesn't have to be pretty, but it has to be reasonably positioned. The objective of the second step is to get the trailer into its final position.


Thanks again everyone. I truly appreciate it. Looking forward to others chiming in too.


John

[johnnybadger]

Thanks AP and Captcolour. AP, it sounds like you are describing the "Scoop" approach.

[JRTJH]

When you watch "15 U-Tube videos" you'll get "15 procedures" and then when you actually get to the truck seat, trying to separate those 15 different techniques and blend parts of each will quickly become OVERWHELMING....

For me, I'd suspect that by now, with 6 responses to the question, we're almost half way to being "overwhelmed"....

That said, for me, being able to back a trailer is having the ability to "conceptualize an overhead view of what's happening".... And then to visualize the rear of the trailer going in the correct direction AND guiding the truck to follow the trailer. If things get "out of alignment" then stop, pull forward and make corrections to the track, and again, follow the trailer into the spot you want it to end....

No matter how much you "study" and "conceptualize" and "postulate" and "read"... Until you actually get some "seat time" and exposure in backing, you'll never become proficient.

I find that backing in an empty church parking lot or at the high school gym on weekends is a good way to "start" (kindergarten) but in very short order, that learning process will be woefully inadequate. Advance to "elementary school" and tackle easy to access campsites, then move on to "high school" and more difficult sites. Don't get discouraged if you come upon a "college level campsite" and you're in "third grade"... Accept your limitations, do the best you can and don't get discouraged if it isn't perfect on the first or second or even the third attempt... After all, by comparison, you're not supposed to even be driving until you're in high school, so remember your limits, do the best you can and don't stop trying.

While it is hard to be "neck deep in frustration" in a crowded campground with the feeling that everyone is laughing at you while your DW is yelling at you and your frustration is growing with every second you follow your failure.... The only "real way to learn to back into a tight campsite" is to "actually back into a tight campsite"... Take your time, remember the basics, don't let anyone/anything pressure you into becoming frustrated and don't lose your patience or perspective.... Point the trailer bumper in the correct direction, imagine the truck bumper following the trailer bumper and guide the truck to follow the trailer.

It gets easier with every attempt, confidence grows with every successful attempt and patience/practice/perfection will happen with "seat time"...

[wiredgeorge]

OK, Brief idea of what I do (not the experts). I have a rear view camera. I MUST back up with the passenger side as the turn side making it a little more difficult.
STEP ONE. Send missus to the house (her arm waving confuses me)
STEP TWO: Remember I am a Christian and my language shouldn't get colorful
STEP THREE: Pull truck up (it is the same place very time at home) and SLOWLY back into very sloped slot.
STEP FOUR: Run over agave plant (only must be done once as it is no longer there)
STEP FIVE: Once you have the butt end going about where it should, GET OUT AND LOOK to see if it is about right
STEP SIX: Pull forward again and CORRECT
STEP SEVEN: See step six
STEP EIGHT: Now that the camper is going in the right direct backwards, look in rearview camera and see that you don't pull back too far as the power poll is the wrong way to figure this out.

There. All you need to be a rank amateur; you can get all the tips and watch all the videos but I am guessing if you just practice it will get better (in theory).

STEP NINE: BUY A FORD PICKUP WITH TRAILER BACKUP ASSIST

[wiredgeorge]

Oh yeah, get the tee shirt that shows your backing up skills:

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

When you watch "15 U-Tube videos" you'll get "15 procedures" and then when you actually get to the truck seat, trying to separate those 15 different techniques and blend parts of each will quickly become OVERWHELMING....

For me, I'd suspect that by now, with 6 responses to the question, we're almost half way to being "overwhelmed"....

That said, for me, being able to back a trailer is having the ability to "conceptualize an overhead view of what's happening".... And then to visualize the rear of the trailer going in the correct direction AND guiding the truck to follow the trailer. If things get "out of alignment" then stop, pull forward and make corrections to the track, and again, follow the trailer into the spot you want it to end....

No matter how much you "study" and "conceptualize" and "postulate" and "read"... Until you actually get some "seat time" and exposure in backing, you'll never become proficient.

I find that backing in an empty church parking lot or at the high school gym on weekends is a good way to "start" (kindergarten) but in very short order, that learning process will be woefully inadequate. Advance to "elementary school" and tackle easy to access campsites, then move on to "high school" and more difficult sites. Don't get discouraged if you come upon a "college level campsite" and you're in "third grade"... Accept your limitations, do the best you can and don't get discouraged if it isn't perfect on the first or second or even the third attempt... After all, by comparison, you're not supposed to even be driving until you're in high school, so remember your limits, do the best you can and don't stop trying.

While it is hard to be "neck deep in frustration" in a crowded campground with the feeling that everyone is laughing at you while your DW is yelling at you and your frustration is growing with every second you follow your failure.... The only "real way to learn to back into a tight campsite" is to "actually back into a tight campsite"... Take your time, remember the basics, don't let anyone/anything pressure you into becoming frustrated and don't lose your patience or perspective.... Point the trailer bumper in the correct direction, imagine the truck bumper following the trailer bumper and guide the truck to follow the trailer.

It gets easier with every attempt, confidence grows with every successful attempt and patience/practice/perfection will happen with "seat time"...

John have you ever had to back up your double trailer rig? Ever been tempted to back the boat down the boat ramp with fiver still attached? That has to be near impossible

[K_N_L]

I watched the UPS driver at our loading dock for a year back a 53' foot trailer to the loading dock every day, always aligned and gently touch the ramp, and finally asked him for advise. He said, go slow, trust your mirrors and watch your marks by which he meant any markings on the ground for reference. Lastly is GOAL, get out and look. At least at home I have stepping stones that let me gauge my progress. At campgrounds , I have placed my chocks where I could gauge where I was vs. where I wanted to be.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by jasin1

John have you ever had to back up your double trailer rig? Ever been tempted to back the boat down the boat ramp with fiver still attached? That has to be near impossible

Why certainly, backing double trailers is a piece of cake....

Well, for about 9 or 10 feet that is....

For me, it's impossible, I wouldn't try any more than just a very few feet, and that's only in the event of an emergency and I absolutely have to back it up a tad bit to get out of a space or a predicament.... Otherwise, "R" does not exist on the transmission selector.....

As a note, when I was in the Air Force, we towed missiles to the flight line, 6 on a trailer and 4 trailers behind a tow tractor. The trailers had steering front axles, pintle hook lunettes on the end of a 8' bar tongue. I had one troop from Iowa, who had started driving tractors in the fields, probably before he was walking good... He could back 4 "self steering trailers" around a corner and into an arctic shelter, first time, every time..... Me... I just stood over at the edge of the pavement and watched in amazement every time he did it. He thought nothing of it, had been doing it his whole life.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by K_N_L

I watched the UPS driver at our loading dock for a year back a 53' foot trailer to the loading dock every day, always aligned and gently touch the ramp, and finally asked him for advise. He said, go slow, trust your mirrors and watch your marks by which he meant any markings on the ground for reference. Lastly is GOAL, get out and look. At least at home I have stepping stones that let me gauge my progress. At campgrounds , I have placed my chocks where I could gauge where I was vs. where I wanted to be.

I know a lot of people who lay a garden hose along the path they want the trailer to go and use that as a guide for the roadside tires as they back the trailer "around the curve"...

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Why certainly, backing double trailers is a piece of cake....

Well, for about 9 or 10 feet that is....

For me, it's impossible, I wouldn't try any more than just a very few feet, and that's only in the event of an emergency and I absolutely have to back it up a tad bit to get out of a space or a predicament.... Otherwise, "R" does not exist on the transmission selector.....

As a note, when I was in the Air Force, we towed missiles to the flight line, 6 on a trailer and 4 trailers behind a tow tractor. The trailers had steering front axles, pintle hook lunettes on the end of a 8' bar tongue. I had one troop from Iowa, who had started driving tractors in the fields, probably before he was walking good... He could back 4 "self steering trailers" around a corner and into an arctic shelter, first time, every time..... Me... I just stood over at the edge of the pavement and watched in amazement every time he did it. He thought nothing of it, had been doing it his whole life.

Some people are gifted in backing trailers ...some can hit home runs effortlessly...I’m still waiting to see what my gift is lol

[johnnybadger]

Again, thank you John, Kevin, Jasin and Kevin. I truly appreciate your counsel.

And George, thank you for easing all my analysis paralysis with your humor. I always enjoy reading the posts that have your replies in them.

[sourdough]

[QUOTE=JRTJH;431147]Why certainly, backing double trailers is a piece of cake....

Well, for about 9 or 10 feet that is....


Yep! Watched a sweet couple yesterday come in and park next to us....not even double towing. Had a new motorhome and Jeep behind it. As I watched they pulled up a ways and then decided to back the RV up and maneuver the Jeep like a trailer. The lady was in the back and the gentleman started backing and trying to kick the Jeep in. The front tires on the Jeep kicked completely to the right, started grinding, digging and making a lot of noise as the lady kept ducking her head trying to speak LOUDLY into her little 2 way radio.

I was afraid they were about to ruin the little thin tow bars they had on the Jeep so opened the door about the time he stopped. She was engrossed in "enlightening" him so shut the door. He came back and finally got it all figured out. So, even backing when single towing with a Jeep can be "hazardous" in more ways than one.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by johnnybadger

I apologize in advance for the length of this post. But it is the only way I can think of to get your help in a way that is the easiest for you to give it. The topic is "Backing a FW".


Quick background: We are relatively new to RVing with our 34’ Cougar - Geraldine (August 2020; three trips until we put it storage). But back in the 80’s, we started a 30+-year love affair with boating. For over five years I was a “master” at backing our 20-foot runabout trailer anywhere I needed to put it. We then went on to Lake Michigan capable, twin engine (gas and diesel) “yachts”. Sold our 45’ Sea Ray in the fall of 2017. I was able to bring these boats in and out of slips, gas docks, etc. with the greatest of ease.


So what’s my point? Why do I turn into a puddle of sweat when it comes to backing up Geraldine in a campground? I have practiced in empty parking lots, I have watched all the YouTube videos, and I have started “practicing” using a semi-driver App on my iPad, at home, in the WI winter. What I need help with is a better understanding of the who, what, where, when and why of the backing process: when to cause Geraldine to start to turn, how long do I keep the wheel “jacked”, when do I start to “chase”, and when do I start to “get under it”? (I am purposely using terms brought forth in many of the instructional videos.) I know I will never be "perfect", but I just want to be OK, or just better than terrible.



We are getting ready to head out again on March 1 to spend the next six weeks on the Gulf Coast in and around FL and AL. I promise you that I will gladly take any particles of advice you could offer so that I only sweat mildly during this trip.



Again, I apologize for the length and the elementary level of my question. I am just hoping that the many experienced 5ers will take pity on the poor, old retiree. I will forever be in your debt .

I have boats so I feel your pain.... but having a large boat is probably what is making it so hard to back your fifth wheel into a site. Your probably used to turning around and facing the stern when you back into a slip and using the gear controls exclusively to bring the boat in. I don’t even use the steering wheel when in close to the docks...your used to seeing everything opposite .. at least you don’t have a 12 knot cross wind blowing you into someone else’s boat as you back in ...I’ve had a fair amount of trailers as well and haven’t thought of it much but now that I said it I probably will.
It’s like asking a bowler or a golfer if they inhale or exhale when they release /hit the ball... (if you want to mess with there game ). They will probably say..”you know I never really thought about it before “ ...but now that’s all they will think about lol