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Old 09-09-2020, 06:24 PM   #1
janders
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Bad idea?

I think I know the answer, but I'd appreciate some feedback for confirmation.

2017 Ram 1500
3.21 axle
5.7 hemi
crew cab/short bed
1349 payload (but I do also have nerf bars and a tonneau cover added)
6900 gvwr
13,800 gcwr

Looking at a trailer with 7200 gvwr and about 33 ft overall. Some quick math for tongue weights:
10-15% of 6140 = 614-921 (trailer empty with 2x20 lb LP plus battery)
10-15% of 7200 = 720-1080

Passenger weight is about 475 (realistically 500). That leaves only 849 for cargo/TW. Take out 100 for the hitch and another 55 for accessories above = 694. And that's assuming not one single extra item is on board.

I understand the concept of a WDH+sway control and would absolutely have one, but is there any way it could/would/should transfer enough weight to make this even remotely feasible and safe? As I said, I think I already know the answer, but I'd love some unbiased thoughts. Thank you!
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Old 09-09-2020, 06:28 PM   #2
chuckster57
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Simple answer- don’t do it. I’ll let someone with more time on their hand tell you why.
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Old 09-09-2020, 06:49 PM   #3
Bill-2020
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janders View Post
I think I know the answer, but I'd appreciate some feedback for confirmation.

2017 Ram 1500
3.21 axle
5.7 hemi
crew cab/short bed
1349 payload (but I do also have nerf bars and a tonneau cover added)
6900 gvwr
13,800 gcwr

Looking at a trailer with 7200 gvwr and about 33 ft overall. Some quick math for tongue weights:
10-15% of 6140 = 614-921 (trailer empty with 2x20 lb LP plus battery)
10-15% of 7200 = 720-1080

Passenger weight is about 475 (realistically 500). That leaves only 849 for cargo/TW. Take out 100 for the hitch and another 55 for accessories above = 694. And that's assuming not one single extra item is on board.

I understand the concept of a WDH+sway control and would absolutely have one, but is there any way it could/would/should transfer enough weight to make this even remotely feasible and safe? As I said, I think I already know the answer, but I'd love some unbiased thoughts. Thank you!
Unbiased? You'll get nothing less than Safety-Biased answers to that question. Count on it.
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Old 09-09-2020, 06:52 PM   #4
sourdough
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I appreciate you just looking ahead first, and, I have no idea what I'm about to tell you because I've not pulled out a calculator, but let's give it a whirl....

TV - 1349 payload and 6900 gvwr (realize those are very low)
Axle ration: 3.21 (realize that is a highway/mileage ration, not towing)

Trailer - 7200 gvw. I suppose the 6140 was dry has no bearing since it can't, and won't be "dry" ever again after purchasing.

Look at "norms/averages". I've towed lots of miles with a bumper pull and averaged (after I became aware) 12-13% of loaded weight. That is a kicker because if you don't know that, which you don't, you absolutely must use the gvw to be safe. With a 1060 payload you'd best use the gvw because you will be close no matter what you do. So...

Trailer gvw 7200 x 13% = 936
WDH/sway = 120 (if my Equalizer was the mark that would be)
Passengers = 500
Accessories = 55 (that will not start to be all the stuff)

That total is 1611 and that is way light. I did not include the steps (nerf bars) or bed cover. My backflip is 75 lbs. but don't know what you have. Figure 75 all together. Now it's 1686 vs 1349.

So there it is as I figured through it - literally.

Now, that trailer is 33' (292bh) being placed on the truck we've discussed before. I thought you had decided to get a bigger truck. Are we back to the same discussion about your truck (can't remember and didn't read back but was it the ecodiesel with such a low payload?). If so it still doesn't work for that trailer. You were on the right track before....the weights/capabilities don't change.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:02 PM   #5
janders
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Thank you so much for the confirmation. I am just feeling the weight of a potentially very bad situation and in a time crunch for certain reasons. Yes, I was asking about trucks the other day. No, I haven't made a move on a truck upgrade or signed papers on the trailer yet. I just wanted to run this by some knowledgeable folks on here before I get myself in too deep. I don't have anybody to discuss with in real life, so I'm dependent on kind folks such as yourself to keep me and my family out of harm's way, both on the road and financially. And yes, I want everyone around me to be safe as well. Thank you for your reply. That's what I expected but was afraid to hear. No TT for us at this time.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:28 PM   #6
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You're good to tow a pop-up with that truck but not much more.
The rear end ratio in that truck is for cruising the highway & getting good mileage, not for towing anything of any weight.
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Old 09-09-2020, 07:33 PM   #7
sourdough
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Originally Posted by janders View Post
Thank you so much for the confirmation. I am just feeling the weight of a potentially very bad situation and in a time crunch for certain reasons. Yes, I was asking about trucks the other day. No, I haven't made a move on a truck upgrade or signed papers on the trailer yet. I just wanted to run this by some knowledgeable folks on here before I get myself in too deep. I don't have anybody to discuss with in real life, so I'm dependent on kind folks such as yourself to keep me and my family out of harm's way, both on the road and financially. And yes, I want everyone around me to be safe as well. Thank you for your reply. That's what I expected but was afraid to hear. No TT for us at this time.

Joshua, I know not the weights you carry but I can assure that we here can help you with trying to find a trailer that might work. You have zeroed in on one model which does not work with your truck IMO. That ecodiesel, along with the ratio etc., just saps the carrying ability of that truck.

Are you open to other models/sizes? How big is your family, your interests when you travel? I (we) are here to help you find a way to realize your RV dreams and keep you out of trouble at the same time. I, like many others on the forum I'm sure, was considered a "mother hen" over my kids, my employees and anyone else that seemed to need it....sometimes not

You've been searching. If you feel comfortable share what it is that you would look for and see if we can help you find a way. That's what we do.

Edit: What transmission do you have with that truck? The 8 speed?
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Old 09-09-2020, 08:06 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
You're good to tow a pop-up with that truck but not much more.
The rear end ratio in that truck is for cruising the highway & getting good mileage, not for towing anything of any weight.

I would at least buy Light Truck tires at a minimum with the pop up...
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Old 09-09-2020, 08:10 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
Joshua, I know not the weights you carry but I can assure that we here can help you with trying to find a trailer that might work. You have zeroed in on one model which does not work with your truck IMO. That ecodiesel, along with the ratio etc., just saps the carrying ability of that truck.

Are you open to other models/sizes? How big is your family, your interests when you travel? I (we) are here to help you find a way to realize your RV dreams and keep you out of trouble at the same time. I, like many others on the forum I'm sure, was considered a "mother hen" over my kids, my employees and anyone else that seemed to need it....sometimes not

You've been searching. If you feel comfortable share what it is that you would look for and see if we can help you find a way. That's what we do.

Edit: What transmission do you have with that truck? The 8 speed?

I am a bit confused Danny... didn't he say he had a 5.7L; believe that is a gas engine. Doesn't make a difference as far as inability to tow most any camper due to payload but the engine seems strong in that it has 410 ft/lbs of torque.
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Old 09-10-2020, 03:10 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by sourdough View Post
I appreciate you just looking ahead first, and, I have no idea what I'm about to tell you because I've not pulled out a calculator, but let's give it a whirl....

TV - 1349 payload and 6900 gvwr (realize those are very low)
Axle ration: 3.21 (realize that is a highway/mileage ration, not towing)

Trailer - 7200 gvw. I suppose the 6140 was dry has no bearing since it can't, and won't be "dry" ever again after purchasing.

Look at "norms/averages". I've towed lots of miles with a bumper pull and averaged (after I became aware) 12-13% of loaded weight. That is a kicker because if you don't know that, which you don't, you absolutely must use the gvw to be safe. With a 1060 payload you'd best use the gvw because you will be close no matter what you do. So...

Trailer gvw 7200 x 13% = 936
WDH/sway = 120 (if my Equalizer was the mark that would be)
Passengers = 500
Accessories = 55 (that will not start to be all the stuff)

That total is 1611 and that is way light. I did not include the steps (nerf bars) or bed cover. My backflip is 75 lbs. but don't know what you have. Figure 75 all together. Now it's 1686 vs 1349.

So there it is as I figured through it - literally.

Now, that trailer is 33' (292bh) being placed on the truck we've discussed before. I thought you had decided to get a bigger truck. Are we back to the same discussion about your truck (can't remember and didn't read back but was it the ecodiesel with such a low payload?). If so it still doesn't work for that trailer. You were on the right track before....the weights/capabilities don't change.
I will simply state that this advice is dead on. With that gear ratio you would be slow pulling from a stop and crawling up hill with engine screaming. You will rapidly "pull the guts out of that truck", i.e. Prematurely wear out or damage the driveline.

Even if you ignore the obvious overweight issue a large trailer with such a large area, is a big sail that will push the truck around at will.

You state that you are being time pressured, that's when folks typically make their biggest regrettable mistakes. DON'T DO IT! You'll thank yourself in the future.
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Old 09-10-2020, 12:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by travelin texans View Post
You're good to tow a pop-up with that truck but not much more.
The rear end ratio in that truck is for cruising the highway & getting good mileage, not for towing anything of any weight.
That truck with 3.21 and 8 speed can easily tow a smaller TT. With all the trans gear ratios it is reasonably capable. You still can't go the cargo cap and your rating is capped just under 8000lbs.

Due to cargo capacity the trailer discussed will not work well. But a smaller 5500-6000lb gvwr trailer would. That's a heck of as lot more than a popup.
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Old 09-10-2020, 03:52 PM   #12
sourdough
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I am a bit confused Danny... didn't he say he had a 5.7L; believe that is a gas engine. Doesn't make a difference as far as inability to tow most any camper due to payload but the engine seems strong in that it has 410 ft/lbs of torque.

Your not confused George, I misspoke. Reading too many things and trying to remember back and forth....there's a reason I have 3 tablets and a notebook in front of me....I just have to use them.
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Old 09-24-2020, 11:20 AM   #13
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Biggest concern to me would be pulling a trailer that long with a short wheel based half ton.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:54 PM   #14
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Not enough payload for a soccer mom with the boys to stop for hotdogs and soda.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:59 PM   #15
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Is it me or are there more and more "Can I tow (the question is always too much trailer) with a 150/1500 on here?
I know the inventory is low because of a surge in sales and the factories have had a set back in production due to Covid-19, but maybe this problem can be addressed from a different prospective. Maybe Keystone (and other manufactures) need to put something on the trailers they build (one of the many warning stickers you find on a new unit) that recommends a proper tow vehicle for a particular product. I know the immediate response will be, "a tactic like this will detour sales numbers". Maybe initially, but once it is understood that even the factory/builder of these trailers is expressing a minimum TV, customers will show up to buy with the correct equipment. Or if they do not have enough truck they will downsize their trailer purchase (based on factory recommendations) or they get more truck. The dealers that are rolling 32 ft. TTs off the lot behind these "grocery getters" need to be held liable. And there is the other approach, a few "unsettling settlements" against some of these dealers for negligence, and then the above proposal becomes more of a reality.
Sorry for the added verbiage here, back to the question.

To the OP, Yes, bad idea. For reasons previously explained, please heed the advice given. This forum could be filled everyday with pictures of accidents involving a not enough truck for the trailer scenarios. Most of the pictures posted do not have the accident reports with them, but if you look at the accident scene, it is not hard to imagine the horror the passengers went through, if they survived. You do not want that for your family, we know that. That is why you are on here asking questions.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:29 AM   #16
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Laredo, your "Maybe Keystone needs to put something on the trailers they build that recommends a proper tow vehicle for a particular product" sounds good on the surface, but product liability will rear its ugly head and attorneys will take it from there.
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Old 09-25-2020, 02:41 AM   #17
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They already do give you information to pick an appropriate tow vehicle. They publish the weights. Now I do think they need t publish just the GVW and appropriate % of that as the hitch/pin weight. The manufacturer should not have to stay up on what every vehicle is capable of. In reality the only person who should be responsible is the consumer. If I buy from a dealer they should be required to ask and legitimately help with number to ensure safety, but look how many used RV's are bought on the side of the road. There is no one to make sure the vehicle is appropriate for those instances except the end user. It comes down to a poorly educated society that doesn't know what they don't know.
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Old 09-25-2020, 05:37 AM   #18
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Poor educated and enabled to believe their actions are anyone's responsibility other than their own for their actions. Why should the mfg tell what truck will pull their product? They give you the weights, the truck mfg gives you the weight the truck can handle right there on the truck. Good golly, have we become that dependent on others to tell us everything? It's called due diligence, people need to put a little effort out.

Reminds me of the folks that buy a house on the end of an airport runway then complain about the noise. The airport may have been there for a 100 years but they want it shut down because they can't sleep. Recently on a community site someone was complaining about the train that blows it's horn every a.m. at 4. They "recently" bought the house, near an at grade road crossing that Fed Law requires the train to blow the horn. These idiots had to cross the tracks to buy the house!

There is an obvious need for the school systems to teach common sense. JMHO
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:17 AM   #19
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Yes Jim, litigation was mentioned in my post, but from the other side of the fence. How many salesman do you think would sell you a trailer if you (the consumer) produced a contract for them to sign that holds them (the dealer) liable in the event of an accident that can be proven to be caused by overweight towing? Zero, goose egg.
The "sale" is a contract and the assumption with the sale is the consumer knows what he is doing. Wrong, it is obvious by the amount of "can I SAFELY tow the space shuttle with a Tundra" questions on here (and this is just one forum) that the correct information is not getting through.
Yes,tech470 and flybouy, the information (weights, tow capacity, CCC, ect....) is already there. Problem is a majority of buyers do not understand these numbers. They get down the road (after the "sale") and realize something is not right, then they end up on here getting the bad news that their investment is flawed and unsafe. I think more usable information up front would encourage better decisions out of the gate. I know the manufactures are not going to put a sticker on their product that say's : Keystone Trailer Corp. recommends this recreational vehicle be towed with a XXXX or greater grade of vehicle with a minimum of XXXX payload capacities". I get that.
How could this type of information hurt the manufacture when it presents a "we told you so" premise? But I understand from a "sales" standpoint trying to do things safely just does not work.
The real trigger point here is that initial phone call, we have all made. You see a trailer you like at dealer X and call the sales department, get a few details and then the big question, from the dealer, What are you planning to tow the trailer with? You answer with a XXXX at this point it would be nice to have some guidance, because we all know what the dealers motive is here. This is where the above mentioned "sticker" would be nice to have. Driven by common sense and not profit. I know, I know not going to happen. Maybe you guys are missing an opportunity to be hired as "consultants".
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Old 09-25-2020, 07:53 AM   #20
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The onus is on the consumer, always has been, always will be. The salesman's job is to sell a product, period. Do you read all the "can I tow?" posts on these forums? What do you think would happen if RV salesman started asking questions about the potential customer's truck? They would encounter the same "BS you don't know what you're taking about my truck can pull anything" rhetoric before they go storming out. The salesman would be looking for a job very quickly. It just isn't realistic.
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