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Old 05-14-2016, 06:07 PM   #1
slow
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Scale Numbers for F250 and Passport Elite 23RB

Up until today, I did not have "apples to apples" Cat Scale numbers for our set up (listed in the title). I had some time and wanted to do a test pull after changing the TT wheel bearings, installing the MorRyde wet bolt kit and air bags on the TV. So why not load up the DW, fresh water and our typical weekend cargo and take a 20 mile drive to the scales and retorque the lug nuts when we arrive?

The numbers I tabulated below, with the exception of the unloaded Truck only, were from today's weigh ins.




A few things to note:

* The unloaded truck was weighed when new (a year ago) and had no bed cap nor any cargo in it other than me and the DW.

* The loaded truck includes the bed cap and stuff we loaded into it for a typical weekend trip.






* The TT has mods made to it to move weight to the rear of the axles. This includes vinyl tubes for the sewer hose and ladder and a cargo box on the rear bumper. We also load the front storage areas as light as possible and place heavy items in the bed of the TV. One negative modification we made was replacing the 24 lb factory mattress with a 54 lb mattress from Ikea in the front bedroom.

* We typically load 10 to 12.5 gallons of FW in the front under the bed FW tank. For this weigh in, I loaded about 12.5 gal.

* We tow with a ProPride hitch. When doing the weighing, the hitch head and bars are on the trailer. But from a load stand point it has to be treated as payload on the TV's receiver. The hitch head and bars weigh 127 lbs and this value was accounted for in the calculations. For those that may check my calculations, the 127 lbs needs to be subtracted from the traditional tongue weight calculation and added to the TV's payload (and load on the TV receiver).


Here is a summary of the numbers. The left side is related to the TV without the TT. The right side of the table is with the TT.





A few comments related to the TT:

* Our 4660 lb dry TT gained 933 lbs of "stuff" we take with us on weekend trips. I do not believe we take too much stuff. It just adds up very quickly as others point out.

* We still have 1207 lbs of cargo capacity in the TT (but I will not tell the DW).

* We have ample excess capacity on the TT axles and tires.


A few comments related to the TV:

* The bed cap and items we keep in the bed of the TV along with a 5 gal jug of fresh water in the cab is 660 lbs.

* We are well within the TV axle, tire and combined weight capacities.

* I did a forth re-weigh after I studied the first three and was able to confirm that my typical WD setup gets my front TV front axle back to it's unloaded state. (I had assumed I could back off the WD bar loading because I now had air bags on the TV, I was wrong!)

* Of the 2668 lb yellow sticker payload capacity, we only have 818 pounds left since we have 1860 lbs of payload. If the bed cap was removed, it would still be approximately 1660 lbs of payload and the DW and I only make up 330 lbs of that payload.


I hope this helps others considering a TV or TT in their future.


(BTW: let me know if I made any errors in my calculations.)
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Old 05-14-2016, 06:10 PM   #2
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I ran into this when I was researching better tow vehicles. I ended up with an F350, but the tongue rating is still 1,350 with weight distribution.
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Old 05-14-2016, 06:16 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by BirchyBoy View Post
I ran into this when I was researching better tow vehicles. I ended up with an F350, but the tongue rating is still 1,350 with weight distribution.
It is unfortunate that the TV manufacturers seem to use a 10% factor to establish tongue weight capacity where as we are striving for a 12.5 to 15% ratio.
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Old 05-19-2016, 10:10 AM   #4
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I installed a TorkLift Superhitch Magnum on my F250. Although it can handle more than my truck, the hitch is no longer the limiting factor.


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Old 05-19-2016, 11:18 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Outback 325BH View Post
I installed a TorkLift Superhitch Magnum on my F250. Although it can handle more than my truck, the hitch is no longer the limiting factor.


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Thanks for the insight. I was giving some thought to the upgrade. Maybe a fall project if it haunts me thru the summer.
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Old 05-22-2016, 02:57 PM   #6
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Slow

Replace the drawbar with a 2.5 inch and forget about it. Have to wonder how the shank size makes such a difference in the tolerable tongue weight.

Frank
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Old 05-22-2016, 04:26 PM   #7
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Good idea Frank. If changing the receiver may as well go to 2 1/2 inch shank.


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Old 05-23-2016, 06:16 AM   #8
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I am confused. Which reading is the truck w/trailer connected but trailer not on scales?

The truck by itself on the scales and loaded is 8160?
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Old 05-23-2016, 03:19 PM   #9
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Scale Numbers for F250 and Passport Elite 23RB

Quote:
Originally Posted by {tpc} View Post
I am confused. Which reading is the truck w/trailer connected but trailer not on scales?
None

Quote:
Originally Posted by {tpc} View Post
The truck by itself on the scales and loaded is 8160?

Yes
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Old 05-24-2016, 12:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by slow View Post
None
This was the reason I asked. I thought you subtracted loaded truck weight (by itself) from the weight of the truck with the trailer connected (but not on the scales) to determine tongue weight.

Just trying to determine how you came up with the number you did.
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Old 05-24-2016, 04:07 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by {tpc} View Post
This was the reason I asked. I thought you subtracted loaded truck weight (by itself) from the weight of the truck with the trailer connected (but not on the scales) to determine tongue weight.

Just trying to determine how you came up with the number you did.
Yep, lots of numbers to sort out.
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Old 05-25-2016, 04:47 AM   #12
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Let me restate my thoughts then. You asked for someone to let you know if you made errors in your calculations in the original post.

I can't really tell if you made errors, but if you agree with my statement of "I thought you subtracted loaded truck weight (by itself) from the weight of the truck with the trailer connected (but not on the scales) to determine tongue weight.", and you have not done this, then I believe you made an error (not necessarily in your calculations) in how you weighed everything.

Or let me just ask. How did you determine the tongue weight?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just trying to understand. Maybe my thinking is wrong. I will be weighing mine soon enough, but I own a tongue weight scale that I will be using initially, until I can actually hit a scale on one of my upcoming trips.

Being that the listed dry weight of your unit and it's size is very similar to mine, I cannot believe your TW is almost double what I believe mine to be. I did measure it last year once when I had the chance, but conditions were not ideal at the time so I can't be sure that it is truly accurate. Even if it was 200 lbs light, I still clock in well under your TW by about 400 lbs.

The only real difference I could see is that it appears the axles are a bit further back than mine but it may be more optical illusion than anything due to different graphics etc.

FWIW, I pack just about everything in the trailer. Very little goes in my truck.
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Old 05-25-2016, 08:18 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by {tpc} View Post
.......
Or let me just ask. How did you determine the tongue weight?
.....................
tpc, thanks for the questions. It forces me to give it more thought and to understand it better. AND I have been know to make errors!

The calculation I used to determine TW:

TW = Loaded Truck Rear Axle Weight (with trailer, but no WD) - Loaded Truck Rear Axle Weight (no trailer) - Weight of Propride Main Unit and Bars

TW = 5080 - 3840 - 127 = 1113 lbs

BUT to your point, I should have used the total truck weights not only the rear axle weights.

TW = Loaded Truck Rear & Front Axle Weight (with trailer, but no WD) - Loaded Truck Rear & Front Weight (no trailer) - Weight of Propride Main Unit and Bars

TW = (5080 + 3940) - (3840 + 4320) - 127 = 733 lbs

Thanks for pointing it out! I revised the table to correct my error.
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RoadMaster Shock Kit
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Old 05-25-2016, 10:21 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by slow View Post
tpc, thanks for the questions. It forces me to give it more thought and to understand it better. AND I have been know to make errors!

The calculation I used to determine TW:

TW = Loaded Truck Rear Axle Weight (with trailer, but no WD) - Loaded Truck Rear Axle Weight (no trailer) - Weight of Propride Main Unit and Bars

TW = 5080 - 3840 - 127 = 1113 lbs

BUT to your point, I should have used the total truck weights not only the rear axle weights.

TW = Loaded Truck Rear & Front Axle Weight (with trailer, but no WD) - Loaded Truck Rear & Front Weight (no trailer) - Weight of Propride Main Unit and Bars

TW = (5080 + 3940) - (3840 + 4320) - 127 = 733 lbs

Thanks for pointing it out! I will revise the table when I get a chance.

Ok this makes much more sense to me. But I have to say that I am not an expert in these matters what so ever, so hopefully someone else chimes in with what should be the proper way.

I want to say also that I think the hitch weight SHOULD be including in the calculation, not subtracted, because that is weight actually on the ball, right? Or maybe because the hitches are weight distributing kind, they don't need to be from some reason?

Or maybe that really isn't tongue weight but you just subtract from payload? But isn't it the same thing? Since your tongue weight is subtracted from payload at the end of the day anyways?
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Old 05-25-2016, 03:12 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by {tpc} View Post
...............I want to say also that I think the hitch weight SHOULD be including in the calculation, not subtracted, because that is weight actually on the ball, right? Or maybe because the hitches are weight distributing kind, they don't need to be from some reason?

Or maybe that really isn't tongue weight but you just subtract from payload? But isn't it the same thing? Since your tongue weight is subtracted from payload at the end of the day anyways?
I updated the table with the correction. Thanks for your insights and questions tpc.

As for how to allocate the weight of the Propride hitch main unit and bars: they are mounted semi-permanently to the TT via the coupler and ball, it is rigidly connected to the receiver when connected to the TV. So the common view of Propride owners is that since the tongue weight is typically measured at the ball, the weight of the Propride components should be deducted from the TW without WD engaged and applied as payload on the receiver/TV.

Their reasoning is to be able to compare TW to conventional hitches. For CAT Scale weighings with a conventional WD hitch, the hitch head stays with the TV and many would place the bars in the back of the TV when being weighed without the TT. With a Propride, the hitch head (main unit) and bars are impractical to quickly remove from the TT for the weighing and moved to the TV for the measurement of TV only. So to simulate the TW at ball for comparison to a conventional hitch, the Propride main unit and bars are mathematically deducted from the measured/calculated TW and added as load to the TV.

But as you state, in the end it is a load on the TV that consumes available payload capacity whether it is considered TW or payload. The only other consideration is if the receiver can handle the load.

Thanks again for questioning the numbers.
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Old 06-04-2016, 04:22 PM   #16
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Slow:

I got kind of nervous when I saw your numbers, especially the original post with the 1000+ pound tongue weight. I too have a 23RB and use a 2014, 6 cylinder Durango, with the tow package. That is a far cry from a 250. The Durango has a payload capacity of 1200 pounds, tow capacity of 6200 pounds, and a tongue weight of 620 pounds. It is just me and the DW and I know we need to travel light. I try to use plastic whenever I can (leveling blocks, etc.) But I was unsure about the TW so I purchased the Sherline scale from e-trailer for $139.00 Used it today, with battery, propane tanks, and the front storage compartment packed as it normally is. It came in at 575 pounds. I also use the Equalizer WD hitch, which weighs about 100 pounds, so I would be at 675 if the hitch is included. I'm ok with that, since I think the 620 is a bit arbitrary (just 10% of tow capacity). The 8 cylinder Durango can tow 7200 pounds and TW is listed as 720, again 10%, and same frame as the 8 cylinder. I could also just move some of the tools and heavier items from the storage compartment to the rear of the trailer when traveling. We only camp at full hookups, so I don't carry water. The trailer is 4600 dry, so we are maybe pushing 5000 pounds.
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Old 06-04-2016, 04:25 PM   #17
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Good thing tpc challenged the numbers.


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