Lithium Battery

[foldbak]

Has anyone tried this?

https://www.amazon.com/Aims-Power-LF...40872930&psc=1

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by foldbak

Has anyone tried this?

https://www.amazon.com/Aims-Power-LF...40872930&psc=1

Never tried it but here are 2 things to think about. First, your converter will not charge it so you must replace your converter or purchase a stand alone charger.
Second is cost. Unless you really need the power for the cost of the battery and a charger you could most likely replace the flooded battery 6 to 8 times. If the standard battery lasts only 2 years that's 12 - 16 years worth of batteries.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by flybouy

Never tried it but here are 2 things to think about. First, your converter will not charge it so you must replace your converter or purchase a stand alone charger.
Second is cost. Unless you really need the power for the cost of the battery and a charger you could most likely replace the flooded battery 6 to 8 times. If the standard battery lasts only 2 years that's 12 - 16 years worth of batteries.

The existing converter will charge the Lithium's, just not optimally. If you have one like mine and can override the converter to stay in a higher rate of charge then that is better. One of the advantageous of Lithium is the ability to charge them full on.

[+Ruff Rider]

I just had to replace my converter and it was a standard one $300
I can only imaging that one for a lithium would be in the $500 range.

[foldbak]

This should work to charge it
I'm more looking for the amp hours. I have to run the generator so my inverter charges the batteries to peak about every 2 hours when watching TV. I don't use the converter. It's been removed. I was thinking with a 100 amp hour battery I wouldn't have to charge as often.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by foldbak

This should work to charge it
I'm more looking for the amp hours. I have to run the generator so my inverter charges the batteries to peak about every 2 hours when watching TV. I don't use the converter. It's been removed. I was thinking with a 100 amp hour battery I wouldn't have to charge as often.

First, you'd need to know the total amp draw on the battery. It's not just the TV to consider, but the few lights you're using, the parasitic drain that the trailer has, the refrigerator operation and then there's also the inverter/charger "intrinsic power consumption" to run its cooling fans, monitoring circuits, power loss through the transformers, etc.

To me, maybe not to you, but I'm not about to get up every 2 hours to crank a generator to "charge a battery to peak" only to keep draining it to run back outside again before bed to run it for another hour..... I'd want a battery system that is capable of powering my evening consumption without any work on my part and I'll run the generator for as long as it takes "tomorrow"....

[foldbak]

I don't want to over think it. Not necessary. I've been using the same setup for years so I know how long it takes to drain the batteries to 25% and recharge to 100%. As far as stating the generator it's built in and I can start it with my toe while reclined lol.

The question is simply has anyone used Lithium batteries. I presume that with a 100 amp hour battery bank I'd at least double my inverter time. Just wondering if I'd double my charge time as well. And what's the true life span of the battery? With proper care I can make a acid battery last 8 years. And the fridge is always on gas. I don't run it on AC unless I'm plugged in which is rare.

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by foldbak

I don't want to over think it. Not necessary. I've been using the same setup for years so I know how long it takes to drain the batteries to 25% and recharge to 100%. As far as stating the generator it's built in and I can start it with my toe while reclined lol.

The question is simply has anyone used Lithium batteries. I presume that with a 100 amp hour battery bank I'd at least double my inverter time. Just wondering if I'd double my charge time as well. And what's the true life span of the battery? With proper care I can make a acid battery last 8 years. And the fridge is always on gas. I don't run it on AC unless I'm plugged in which is rare.

Just a couple of observations on this post. If you are draining your battery to 25% you're killing it and shortening it's life every time you do it. A lead acid battery should not be drained below 50%. An 8 yr lifespan on a flooded battery? I'd like to know what brand that is.

ALL of the appliances (other than the stove/oven) require 12 vdc to operate the controller while operating on LP gas ar on 110 vac.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by foldbak

This should work to charge it
I'm more looking for the amp hours. I have to run the generator so my inverter charges the batteries to peak about every 2 hours when watching TV. I don't use the converter. It's been removed. I was thinking with a 100 amp hour battery I wouldn't have to charge as often.

Something messed up there, a modern TV does not use much power. Sounds like you have dealer installed FLA batteries that are NOT true deep discharge and/or they have been discharged at least once below 50%, which kills them and now you are just 'top charging'

[foldbak]

Originally Posted by sonofcy

Something messed up there, a modern TV does not use much power. Sounds like you have dealer installed FLA batteries that are NOT true deep discharge and/or they have been discharged at least once below 50%, which kills them and now you are just 'top charging'

I think you misinterpreted. The system works just fine. I'm just looking to make it a bit more efficient. The first thing I did was upgrade the batteries to Deep cycle. I purchase all of my batteries from a local co in Sacramento. Battery Bill has been around for decades and makes a great battery and stands behind his product.



And their certainly not surface charged. My Aims inverter/charger is a 100 amp Multi stage smart charger. I can bring them back from 11 volts inverted to around 90% full charge in about 30 mins. The chargers a beast. I would have put 6 volt deep cycle batteries in series but I would have to make a larger larger battery box and and dont want to have to deal with the 2/0 welding cable again.

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by foldbak

I think you misinterpreted. The system works just fine. I'm just looking to make it a bit more efficient. The first thing I did was upgrade the batteries to Deep cycle. I purchase all of my batteries from a local co in Sacramento. Battery Bill has been around for decades and makes a great battery and stands behind his product.



And their certainly not surface charged. My Aims inverter/charger is a 100 amp Multi stage smart charger. I can bring them back from 11 volts inverted to around 90% full charge in about 30 mins. The chargers a beast. I would have put 6 volt deep cycle batteries in series but I would have to make a larger larger battery box and and dont want to have to deal with the 2/0 welding cable again.

Works fine!!!!! Not if you have to charge every 2 hours. If you have discharged them to 25% they are all but dead. I use Trojan T105's and they are rated at 225 but of course only use 112. I get 6 hours of use for my 5th wheel on a 25% discharge or 75% state of charge.Since FLA's are usually rated for 300 cycles and are fully discharged at 12V and 50% at 12.4 V your 11V is beyond dead. Go to school on the topic. Yes a LiFePO4 will make things better because you CAN discharge them to 0, just make sure it has a good BMS, Battle Born would be a good candidate.
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ased_batteries

[sonofcy]

Originally Posted by foldbak

Has anyone tried this?

https://www.amazon.com/Aims-Power-LF...40872930&psc=1

Unknown seller, stick with established brands like Battle Born, lot's of sketchy Chinese suppliers.

[chuckster57]

As you know, some subjects seem to get people riled up and once your wound tight, it seems like your people skills take a back seat. I appreciate you coming back and I look forward to your continued participation in this forum.

[chuckster57]

I know that pleasureway uses lithium batteries in Their units, and most have a solar panel on the roof. I wonder if you might find better information if they have a discussion forum.

[JRTJH]

I've stayed out of this because honestly, it doesn't interest me in my current situation. I believe, for most RV'ers, lithium battery conversion is far too expensive and most don't use/even keep their RV long enough to justify the expense of conversion.

As a comparison, two GC2 (golf cart) batteries are less than $200 and can be used with the existing RV electrical charging system. Total expense to upgrade to a "100 amp system" is $200.

On the other hand, a lithium 100 amp battery is roughly $900 and the current RV charger typically won't charge that battery efficiently to obtain maximum life/recharge cycles. So, a new charger with a lithium profile is needed. That charger costs about $300. Now the expense of conversion becomes a "do it yourself cost" of around $1200.

The only advantage I can see when the two systems are "side by side" is the lower "discharge threshold" of the lithium system. (20% rather than 50%). That small "extended run time" at least for me, doesn't justify the added expense or the added longevity.

My current GC2 batteries (Duracell from Sam's Club) cost $78 each when I bought them 8 years ago. Today's cost is $89. My batteries are still functioning, still providing adequate power and still recharging appropriately after 8 years of service. Conversion to a system with a lifespan of 20 years would likely outlive my RV's lifespan. The cost $156 vs $1200 can't be justified, by me.

I see no advantage in a major investment ($1200) to change to a lithium system "for grins"... Currently, from a "dollar perspective" for someone who has a 3 or 4 year old RV, that major investment, when conditioned against the remaining RV ownership time, would likely not work out as a "wise investment".

There was a time when I wanted the "latest and greatest" and would pay 5, 6 even 10 times the "next year selling price" to buy it "NOW"... Through the years, I've learned that if I continue using what I have until next year, I can get the same thing and still have all the service I've enjoyed, have the "latest things a bit later" and keep much of my money.

That said, once the price of lithium technology becomes competitive for short term use (not the sales hype of recharge cycles) then the technology will be competitive from a short term investment perspective. Until people start keeping RV's 15 years or until the price of lithium batteries is similar to today's GC2 FLA batteries, for most, it's more a "gee-gaw look what I have" trinket than it is a useful tool for an RV.

Now, I know this is likely controversial for some people to understand, and that's OK. I realize there are some people who, for whatever reason, have the funds to "live on the technology edge and pay for it gladly".... I'm not including those people in "can you justify it from your use/income/need perspective. There are always going to be some people who can justify any expense, for them, Lithium technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I agree, for them, it's the right choice. However, for the average RV owner, the cost is way too high to offset the benefit.

YMMV, and I've no doubt the flames will soon reach "scorching temps"...

[n0arp]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I've stayed out of this because honestly, it doesn't interest me in my current situation. I believe, for most RV'ers, lithium battery conversion is far too expensive and most don't use/even keep their RV long enough to justify the expense of conversion.

As a comparison, two GC2 (golf cart) batteries are less than $200 and can be used with the existing RV electrical charging system. Total expense to upgrade to a "100 amp system" is $200.

On the other hand, a lithium 100 amp battery is roughly $900 and the current RV charger typically won't charge that battery efficiently to obtain maximum life/recharge cycles. So, a new charger with a lithium profile is needed. That charger costs about $300. Now the expense of conversion becomes a "do it yourself cost" of around $1200.

The only advantage I can see when the two systems are "side by side" is the lower "discharge threshold" of the lithium system. (20% rather than 50%). That small "extended run time" at least for me, doesn't justify the added expense or the added longevity.

My current GC2 batteries (Duracell from Sam's Club) cost $78 each when I bought them 8 years ago. Today's cost is $89. My batteries are still functioning, still providing adequate power and still recharging appropriately after 8 years of service. Conversion to a system with a lifespan of 20 years would likely outlive my RV's lifespan. The cost $156 vs $1200 can't be justified, by me.

I see no advantage in a major investment ($1200) to change to a lithium system "for grins"... Currently, from a "dollar perspective" for someone who has a 3 or 4 year old RV, that major investment, when conditioned against the remaining RV ownership time, would likely not work out as a "wise investment".

There was a time when I wanted the "latest and greatest" and would pay 5, 6 even 10 times the "next year selling price" to buy it "NOW"... Through the years, I've learned that if I continue using what I have until next year, I can get the same thing and still have all the service I've enjoyed, have the "latest things a bit later" and keep much of my money.

That said, once the price of lithium technology becomes competitive for short term use (not the sales hype of recharge cycles) then the technology will be competitive from a short term investment perspective. Until people start keeping RV's 15 years or until the price of lithium batteries is similar to today's GC2 FLA batteries, for most, it's more a "gee-gaw look what I have" trinket than it is a useful tool for an RV.

Now, I know this is likely controversial for some people to understand, and that's OK. I realize there are some people who, for whatever reason, have the funds to "live on the technology edge and pay for it gladly".... I'm not including those people in "can you justify it from your use/income/need perspective. There are always going to be some people who can justify any expense, for them, Lithium technology is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I agree, for them, it's the right choice. However, for the average RV owner, the cost is way too high to offset the benefit.

YMMV, and I've no doubt the flames will soon reach "scorching temps"...

And I almost didn't comment on this because I'm one of those people who can justify it based on my usage - but there are a few things that I think need to be pointed out.

LiFePO4 cells aren't really subject to Peukert's law, so they may last longer under certain loads than lead acid cells. So, it depends on what you're doing with them. For just a few small 12V loads, a pair of GC2s will work just as well - but that changes when you throw a higher current load on them several times a day (coffee pot, residential fridge compressor, microwave, etc).

My previous system consisted of a 3kW inverter, 4x NAPA GC2s, a Victron BMV-712, no solar, PD9280, and an Onan QG5500 configured to start at ~50% SoC. After just a few months of use, I was able to note significant degradation and was no longer able to pull the plated AH out of the bank. They were on a watering system and filled every couple weeks. The bank was a little undersized for the demands - discharging to 50% at least once, often twice per day - and that was a contributing factor to their quicker than expected decline. As an aside, this setup created an inherent hatred of generators for me.

Your argument about length of ownership - what's keeping you from pulling them and moving them to your next RV? That investment doesn't have to stay with the RV if you trade or sell it - you could just return it to stock and keep your battery/converter investment for the replacement rig. With that being a possibility, a lot of your argument starts to fall short.

Also, RVs aren't generally considered investments. Sure, you can make money off a smart or lucky sale, or save some money on your family vacations if you play your cards right. Consider weekender RVs to be hobbies -- and like other hobbies, you usually don't buy the cheapest in effort to save money. You buy what you want. It's weird that we don't see much of the same financial scrupulosity when it comes to buying or upgrading sports cars, bicycles, consumer electronics, musical instruments, etc. Further, I really don't get how people go out and spend large amounts of money on a RV and then nickel and dime smaller purchases like batteries and hitches, especially when those have a very strong bearing on the overall experience with the rig. Ultimately for this line of reasoning, I've determined that if people can't finance it in, they have a much more difficult time justifying the costs. If everyone on here applied the method of buying the cheapest adequate model when choosing an RV, all of us would be in Hideouts (and nothing wrong with that, we enjoyed our '14 260LHS).

If we're talking about full-timing, there is a different investment model being looked at, and that changes things. I find that it actually tends to fall in favor of things like LiFePO4 batteries, if that means offsetting the amount of time you spend in parks - which has financial as well as several more difficult to quantify benefits. There is a break even point for even the largest solar/lithium setups if you aren't paying an average of $31.87/night (our average when we used to stay in parks) in park fees.

If you are building a big bank, LiFePO4 may be the only way to go for other reasons. My bank weighs 480lbs excluding cables, while a lead acid bank with the equivalent performance would be at least half a ton, take up a whole lot more space, require more maintenance and all the labor to swap it out multiple times over the lifespan of these batteries. Extrapolated over time, it could cost nearly as much, or more.

TL;DR: Both lead acid and LiFePO4 batteries have their places. What you should have depends on how you are using your RV. The majority of people go park to park and wouldn't benefit from LiFePO4. I suspect that any moderately serious boondocker would.

[mikec557]

Originally Posted by n0arp

[The] argument about length of ownership - what's keeping you from pulling them and moving them to your next RV? That investment doesn't have to stay with the RV if you trade or sell it - you could just return it to stock and keep your battery/converter investment for the replacement rig. With that being a possibility, a lot of your argument starts to fall short.

That's what we did. I removed two battleborn 100Ah batteries, Victron 50/100 MPPT solar charge controller, Victron BMV712 battery monitor, a Progressive Dynamics charger/converter and an AIMS 1000 watt pure sine wave inverter.

Sure, it took a little time to remove it and return the RV to stock. But the investment was worth it.

[Traveler2017]

So haven't actually done the conversion yet but will have it all done by Mid April.
So to answer the original question haven't used Lithium Ion. I have been investigating switching for about 2 months now and have decided to make the change. We are not rich and not looking for new toys to use, but in simple terms figure I will save some money in the long run.
Currently have 2 12volt lead acid batteries group 24's. Going to switch to one Lithium Ion battery. Battery cost with charger $629.00 CAD, and locking metal battery box $300.00 so $929.00 plus taxes. I will do the switch myself. Once I get it up and running will let you know how I am doing and give pros and cons.

Cheers everyone!!

[Stircrazy]

If you are handy enough to comect a few wires and put batteries in parralell or series you can save a ton of money building your own LFP battery. 900 bucks for a 100 AH battery is a little outdated there are now 100ah LFP batteries that can be bought ready to go for around 500 bucks CDN, good 210 AH deep cycles are close to 300 so LFP is now cheeper than quality GC bartteries.

they will charge faster than flooded batteries, will give you full capacity and so on. if you can build your own you could build a 280AH battery for around 500.US that is about 44 lbs and 6" x 8" x 11" in size.

Steve

[travelin texans]

"reputable electrical guys on Youtube."

That's an oxymoron isn't it?
I've watched so many rv type U tube videos, mostly for a good laugh, & not sure I'd call most of them reputable.
Not saying whomever you watched wasn't "reputable", but there's a good many that aren't, just like to watch themselves on U tube.