30 amps vs. 50 amps

icefireguy · 09-17-2009, 05:25 PM

Well, our Sydney 321FRL is at the dealer for some minor repair & prep issues after the shakedown cruise, and the dealer called today and stated that his tech was able to make the main breaker trip with the a.c and water heater on 3 times, which was one of my complaints. He stated they called Keystone and they told the tech that if he reads the owners manual, it states not to use the electric water heater with the a.c running because it's only a 30 amp system. Keystone told the tech, much to his surprise, that only the gas side of the water heater should be used when the a.c is in use. Naturally the tech agrees with me that if that's the case, then the unit should have a 50 amp service.
My question is, what does everyone think about converting over to a 50 amp service? I have a friend who states that all that should need to be done is install a 50 amp shore power cord, and he advises running it right to the breaker panel, and changing out the main breaker to a 50 amp breaker as long as the panel is rated for over 50 amps, which he imagines it is. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Charlie.

Flyguy · 09-17-2009, 05:48 PM

I don't know about this, I do know that I run my WH on 110v electric when available and I run the AC at the same time and I don't have any problems with the 30a breaker tripping in the trailer, but my AC unit is rated at 13.5K, is your AC rated at 15K or 13.5K? I expect that a 15K rated AC unit will draw more current than a 13.5K unit. On the trailer's power converter, I think it's rated at 55amps even though it only has a 30amp breaker so I guess it would be OK to swap out the main breaker to 50 amps and you can still plug in to the campsites 30 amp plug, have you tried changing the 30 amp main breaker out with another 30 amp breaker? Sometimes you can have a weak breaker and just replacing it would fix the problem, also, does the campsite's 30 amp breaker trip or only the one in the trailer? This can point to a bad breaker in the trailer.

**hankpage** · 09-17-2009, 06:31 PM

Even with a 13.5k A/C you are using very close to 30amps. with the water heater on electric. At peak times you will not get full voltage in most campgrounds. When voltage drops amps increase and something has to give .... usually the campground breaker or the main in your trailer if it picks up enough heat from the A/C breaker below it. It is also common for the 30amp plug to over heat and be damaged. Easiest solution is to not use both at the same time. In most trailers wired for 30amp the internal wiring (from the power cord to the panel box) is only #10 wire and not rated for 50amp service. It would be easier and much cheaper to run a separate fused cord from the water heater to the 15amp outlet on the power post.

icefireguy · 09-17-2009, 06:49 PM

Lots of good food for thought here. My thought is to run a new #8 wire from the panel to a new plug mounted just outboard of the panel and disregard the 30 amp cord completely. Would only be a 2 or 3 foot run of wire to the new shore power plug I would install on the side of the trailer, and replace the 30 amp breaker w/ a 50 amp breaker. I will have to give the new wh wire some thought though. My other thought was that by doing this I could add a second small a.c unit in the bedroom with a 50 amp system. Just pondering.

Flyguy · 09-18-2009, 04:48 AM

You might consider buying the "Marinco" detachable power cord kit that replaces the pullout cord; this is available in both 30a and 50a. I replaced my 30a cord with the 30a Marinco kit so now I don't have to struggle pushing a #10 wire cord through that small hole, I can't imagine trying to push a #8 cord through it. As far as the current draw is concerned, on my 6 gallon WH the electric 110v element draws 4 amps, the run amps for the AC compressor is 11.3 amps and for the fan it's 2.5 amps, add that all up and my total run current draw including the WH is 17.8 amps ( a long way from 30 amps) but the surge amps at startup is more for just a few seconds, add to this mix the current draw from any lights that you might have on plus if your using the microwave and I could see getting close to 30 amps maybe tripping the breaker if using the microwave at the same time that the AC cuts on, you just have to know and control your current usage.

antiqfreq · 09-18-2009, 06:33 AM

Our previous trailer, which was a hybrid, was 30 amp and we never had a problem with a/c on and water heater on, or a/c or microwave combo,
but if we tried to run all three - kabang - circuit breaker went.

Now with our 5th wheel, which is a 30 amp service, it does the same thing.
So I turn the hot water on for showers or dishes, then turn it off, so I don't accidently have all 3 running cause it too has clicked off.

If/when we get another fiver (and it will be a fiver) we'll get a 50 amp
service and we won't have to worry about that problem!

Jo

icefireguy · 09-18-2009, 06:36 AM

I looked that Marinco item up and it's around $200. I think I can do this for quite a bit less by not buying items that have the name "marine" in them. Seems anytime you add a label to something like "marine" or "rv", you end up paying twice as much for the same thing.

icefireguy · 09-18-2009, 06:49 AM

Yea, me too. In our tt we could run everything at once with no issues, but not this big fancy 5th wheel. It's just unacceptable not to be able to run multiple items at once. They simply undersized the system to save a few bucks I think, and make people who don't want to muscle a larger shore power cord happy.

icefireguy · 09-18-2009, 09:10 AM

Just got off the phone w/ Keystone customer support. I wanted to get a wiring diagram for my trailer for when I tackle this project. He says they don't have wiring diagrams of their rv's to give out. Unreal. He also says I will have to put in a higher amperage converter if I change to a 50 amp service. I said I won't be putting any additional draw on the 12 volt system so why do I need a bigger converter. His answer was that I could do it any way I want to and to have a good day. I am not shocked.

Umpie007 · 09-18-2009, 09:14 AM

If it was me I wouldn't put a 50 amp breaker in your box. I know that this is an inconveniance, my camper will do it to if I run multiple things and the AC kicks on and ....trip. When these AC condensers kick on it's pulling almost 30 amps. These systems are designed like that. Go home and try plugging in a window AC unit with the same ratings and then turn your microwave on and a light, and the water heater into the same circuit and and then turn your AC on and see what happens.......trip. It's just how these things work. Your house is no different. Your wiring inside your campers breaker box is only sufficient enough gauge to handle 30 amps. If you replace that breaker with a 50 amp and you're running your microwave and the water heater and whatever else and then your AC kicks on and spikes at 40 plus amps wires can melt and fires will start, breakers will start on fire if they don't trip like they should if you are doing this alot. Just a word of advice. I guess the only remedy would be to put an 8-3 wire in place of the 10-3. to try to compensate for the slight voltage drop, but this won't solve your problem. Do not put a 50 amp cord and plug in there. Your system is only 110, 50 amp services are 220. As far as the converter being 55 amps, that's DC not AC so don't confuse that with your breaker box. That system is designed to run your 12 volt system, lights and battery charging system etc. You have fuses not breakers on that system. If i was you, I would do what most of us do and limit your power usage. As inconvenient as this sounds it's something we rv'ers have to deal with. I wouldn't waste your time or money converting to a 50 amp service unless you have money to waste, but then you might as well trade off your camper for a 50 amp luxury model....lol.

antiqfreq · 09-18-2009, 09:48 AM

Our breaker never trips unless we have 3 items running at once!

Jody

bennydog · 09-18-2009, 09:54 AM

This could be the real explanation as to why the A/C switch for my water heater is on the water heater itself and has a safety key installed.....They really don't want me to use it on shore power as it is so easy to get to.

Flyguy · 09-18-2009, 10:59 AM

I'm surprised that the switch is located there on your 2010 unit, our 2008 Passport has it on a panel inside the trailer with lighted switches, one says "Water Heater Electric" another "Water Heater Gas" and the third one says "Water Pump", the WH is a 6 gallon DSI type. It looks as if your trailer has a non DSI (Direct Spark Ignition) type of WH which is what our previous 2004 trailer had and yes I had to go outside to switch it over to electric and I worried about forgetting to switch off the electric element, now it's all done remotely with red lights to remind you that a switch is on. You can see the panel in this photo:

The battery and holding tank info is on top and the slide switch is on the right.

**hankpage** · 09-18-2009, 11:49 AM

Your water heater should have a locking switch on the heater also. This is so you cannot energize the element with the tank drained. Residential codes now also require a switch at the heater or a locking breaker to protect service techs also. Turning the switch on without water will fry the element instantly. I may be showing my age but I remember when 60 amps was enough for a whole house. Now 200 seems to be the bare minimum. I just think of the old days with Colman stoves and sleeping bags and it makes it easy to choose between electric or gas hot water with A/C while I'm sipping a cool one in front of the high def flat screen. Isn't roughing it great.

Flyguy · 09-18-2009, 12:21 PM

Ha, Ha, Ha........ Hank I don't know if your older than me or not or what part of N.J. your from, when I was born F.D.R. was president and WWII was looming and I spent the first 14 years of my life growing up in N.J. when there were meadows and farms and streams and all that was unpolluted.

bennydog · 09-18-2009, 12:53 PM

Our last trailer a 2006 Aerolite had a panel like the one you show with 3 switches water heater gas, water heater elect, and water pump. I really think that they did not put in the third switch just to save a couple of bucks. The wiring diagram for the WH shows were to add the switch which I intend to do when I change the tank sensors this winter. I'll start a new thread on that project.

**hankpage** · 09-18-2009, 03:44 PM

Flyguy, We still have meadows and farms and our streams produce some of the best three eyed trout in the country.

My apologies to the OP for going off topic.

icefireguy · 09-19-2009, 05:16 PM

Got my unit back from the dealer today and they took care of all but two minor issues, and both of them required parts be ordered and they did that and I should get a call next week to pick them up and install them myself. As far as the breaker tripping issue that I encountered, the paperwork I received from the service dept. says they rewired the breakers. Unfortunately the tech that did it wasn't there for me to chat with. Tomorrow I'll fire everything up and see what happens. I am so far very impressed with Camping World in Fort Myers, FL as they fixed everything in a very timely fashion.

**hankpage** · 09-19-2009, 07:17 PM

It's nice to hear a positive post on service. I have received good service from my dealer also, Camping World Lakewood NJ, and I think that is 80% of the buyer satisfaction in RVs and cars. A good dealer will create brand loyalty more than the manufacturer. Let us know how everything works out. I think they just moved the A/C breaker away from the main so they don't transfer heat to each other. That should help a little. Good luck, Hank

icefireguy · 09-20-2009, 12:55 PM

Actually, I separated the breakers with the heat issue in mind prior to bringing the unit in for service. I just opened the panel and it appears they didn't change anything. I am going to buy a new main breaker, because the main is only tripping when the a.c compressor kicks on which tells me that it's darn close to not tripping, so may be a weak breaker.

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