Cold air intake or not to cold air intake.

[msp2jxr]

I have a 2008 Ford power stroke and I am thinking of replacing the stock air intake with an after market cold air intake. I see many of you do have cold air intakes listed on your sign off. I am wondering if after installing one for a year or so would you still invest the money? Did you notice a mileage increase throttle response or less shifting pulling trailer? Is it louder in the cab with one? My real purpose for getting one would be to increase mileage and possibly keeping the turbos cooler. If people really do think they work which brand is the best bang for the buck? I see AFE has at least four different models that will fit my truck. What do I look for if I do buy one?

[lightning79]

Diesels respond quite well to extra cold air injected into them. I'd go for it.

[Jim W]

Originally Posted by msp2jxr

I have a 2008 Ford power stroke and I am thinking of replacing the stock air intake with an after market cold air intake. I see many of you do have cold air intakes listed on your sign off. I am wondering if after installing one for a year or so would you still invest the money? Did you notice a mileage increase throttle response or less shifting pulling trailer? Is it louder in the cab with one? My real purpose for getting one would be to increase mileage and possibly keeping the turbos cooler. If people really do think they work which brand is the best bang for the buck? I see AFE has at least four different models that will fit my truck. What do I look for if I do buy one?

My advice is NO; do not replace the CAI intake on a stock engine. Do you think an aftermarket suppliers would have better engineers than the OEM manufacture would? Save your money and invest this into something else such as Gages so you know what your engine is doing as it is working pulling your trailer.

The CAI intake claims that they flow more air than the stock air intake correct? Will if they flow more air than they are filtering the air less than the stock filter will. If that is the case than more dirt will be entering the engine through the turbo charger and be ingested into the piston cylinder walls passing the rings of the piston and into the engine oil. This can be measured by oil sampling and the amount of Silicon that is in the oil, Silicon is dirt. The higher the number the more dirt that is entering the engine from the air filter. My Silicon numbers are usually around 2 or 3 and when I see 3 I know it is time to change out my OEM air filter. I sample my oil at every oil change and this is usually around 7,500 miles, and air filter is changed around 15,000 miles.

Now if you have modified the engine and are making above 500HP. Then an aftermarket CAI intake will work great for this engine as the needs for more air are required.
Jim W.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Jim W

My advice is NO; do not replace the CAI intake on a stock engine. Do you think an aftermarket suppliers would have better engineers than the OEM manufacture would? Save your money and invest this into something else such as Gages so you know what your engine is doing as it is working pulling your trailer.

The CAI intake claims that they flow more air than the stock air intake correct? Will if they flow more air than they are filtering the air less than the stock filter will. If that is the case than more dirt will be entering the engine through the turbo charger and be ingested into the piston cylinder walls passing the rings of the piston and into the engine oil. This can be measured by oil sampling and the amount of Silicon that is in the oil, Silicon is dirt. The higher the number the more dirt that is entering the engine from the air filter. My Silicon numbers are usually around 2 or 3 and when I see 3 I know it is time to change out my OEM air filter. I sample my oil at every oil change and this is usually around 7,500 miles, and air filter is changed around 15,000 miles.

Now if you have modified the engine and are making above 500HP. Then an aftermarket CAI intake will work great for this engine as the needs for more air are required. Jim W.

Just gotta ask an "unanswered" question, Jim. How does the CAI element allow more dirt to the engine when stock, but suddenly stop allowing dirt to a modified engine making 500HP?

[Big Boy w/ Big Toys]

I think he was reffering to the requirement of the engine needing more air to help reduce EGT's.

To the op. If your EGT's are running high, and they do, changing to an aftermarket CAI will help. You might see an increase in mileage and maybe an increase in power, but don't make this the reason to change it. A CAI can help reduce EGT's by as much as 100*. Also if you have a vehicle that has an OEM filter that is difficult to change then a CAI would make it nice. I do recommend getting one witha prefilter. Buy two prefilters and most times this is all you have to remove and clean.

To Jim...if what you say is true then K&N would have been out of business a long time ago. I have been running aftermarket filters all my life and even fabricated my own CAI before they were ever available for any vehicles with out an issue. Now I do check my intake system for any dirt intrusion when first installed. One last thing why are seeing an increase in silicon in your oil sample with a dirty filter? Becuase as a filter gets dirty you should be getting better filtering as they start to clog, which means you may have a leak in your intake system somewhere. You do know that most engine oils have silicon in them as an antifoaming agent. Up to about 5 ppm for new oil. See link below. May want to send in a sample of your oil new to find your silicon background levels before blaming an air filter.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...con-oil-source

I live in Alaska and have had to drive during ash fallouts from volcanoes. Spring time here is like driving on dirt roads from all the sand put down over the winter. What many would consider severe conditions. One of the 1st things that I do with all my vehicles is a CAI, because I tow heavy and hate high EGT's. Have never had an issue on my oil samples. Have never seen any over background levels.

[Jim W]

My responses are in red.

Originally Posted by Big Boy w/ Big Toys

I think he was reffering to the requirement of the engine needing more air to help reduce EGT's.
Most users of aftermarket CAI in the high HP ranges are aware of the issue of dirt entering the engine from the use of a aftermarket CAI. But they need the advantage of additional air flow to support the fuel for higher HP levels in the truck, this is not necessary to provide cooler EGT’s this is to allow the fuel to be burned..

To the op. If your EGT's are running high, and they do, changing to an aftermarket CAI will help. You might see an increase in mileage and maybe an increase in power, but don't make this the reason to change it. A CAI can help reduce EGT's by as much as 100*. Also if you have a vehicle that has an OEM filter that is difficult to change then a CAI would make it nice. I do recommend getting one witha prefilter. Buy two prefilters and most times this is all you have to remove and clean. This is not allows true. On a dyno yes; this will happen but that is due to controlled testing with the hood open to allow fresh cool air to enter. In real world testing an AFE stage 1 CAI will allow up to 39F increase in air temperature. Due to heat soak components and the higher under hood air temperatures as the engine is worked pulling a load up a6% grade..

To Jim...if what you say is true then K&N would have been out of business a long time ago. No, they just get people to believe their advertizing. In fact Cummins ran a test in 2001 measuring the effects of the K&N filter against the Fleetguard air filter. They found issues with the K&N filter and advise their dealers to voided the factory warranty on the Cummins engines if they were found on them.I have been running aftermarket filters all my life and even fabricated my own CAI before they were ever available for any vehicles with out an issue. Now I do check my intake system for any dirt intrusion when first installed.Did you check the Turbo for pitting on the impeller? One last thing why are seeing an increase in silicon in your oil sample with a dirty filter? Becuase as a filter gets dirty you should be getting better filtering as they start to clog, which means you may have a leak in your intake system somewhere. No the aftermarket CAI will pass more dirt do to the efficentce numbers. I believe the Fleetguard filter is rated at 99.7% effecent were as the K&N filter number is rated at 99.4%. Which means they are allowing 0.3% more dirt to enter. You do know that most engine oils have silicon in them as an antifoaming agent. Up to about 5 ppm for new oil. See link below. May want to send in a sample of your oil new to find your silicon background levels before blaming an air filter.

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...con-oil-source

I live in Alaska and have had to drive during ash fallouts from volcanoes. Spring time here is like driving on dirt roads from all the sand put down over the winter. What many would consider severe conditions. One of the 1st things that I do with all my vehicles is a CAI, because I tow heavy and hate high EGT's. Have never had an issue on my oil samples. Have never seen any over background levels.Due you have a gage? My EGT's are never over 1000F when towing my 5er with my 6.7L Cummins.

BTW I am a retired engineer from Caterpillar that was involved in design and the testing of equipment there.

Jim W.

[JRTJH]

Most users of aftermarket CAI in the high HP ranges are aware of the issue of dirt entering the engine from the use of a aftermarket CAI. But they need the advantage of additional air flow to support the fuel for higher HP levels in the truck, this is not necessary to provide cooler EGT’s this is to allow the fuel to be burned..

Jim, If I'm understanding you correctly, then increased dirt intrusion is pretty much a "necessary evil" with CAI?

If that's it, then how/why is a lower velocity standard air filter better able to clean the inducted air, yet the manufacturers are unable to build a higher velocity filter element that is as effective? Or are they available (seems like they would be as there are greater demands in commerical trucking, etc) but just not needed?

John

[Big Boy w/ Big Toys]

Originally Posted by Jim W

BTW I am a retired engineer from Caterpillar that was involved in design and the testing of equipment there.

EXACTLY I am very familiar with Caterpiller engines....no comment from a non engineer guy but just the guy that has to work on them.

Sorry Jim I will disagree.....A cold air intake by design is made to pull the air from the outside, not from under the hood, not from behind or next to the radiator. Opening the hood should have little to no affect on a true cold system. AFE I would not waste my money on. Maybe that is why I build CIA's myself.

There is another scare tactic by a manufacturer...K&N's are junk and you can only run our products, engine, oil,filters, etc.... Have heard this same BS over and over again. You using their $30 a pint transmisssion fluid?

The answer to your question about gauges...I do run gauges and I also have the ability to data log also. At 115* F pulling a grade leaving Phoenix I seen EGT's in the 1100* to 1200* area. Also seen temps between 1000* and 1100* pretty regular on long hard climbs like White Birch in Idaho as an example. Standard flatland running temps ran between 850* and 1000*. The temps were using both the vehicle Egt sensors and a Pro Sport Egt gauge set pre turbo. As a matter of fact before my truck left the dealership I had the computer hooked to my truck to get initial readings on my way home.

And just so you know I did notice you tap danced right past the silicon issue in oil of less then 5 ppm. Do you really know what your background silicon count is? The higher count could be that mix in the oil you are using at that time and really have nothing to do with a dirty air filter. I have rarely seen any of our oil samples come back much higher then background with filters that are almost completely plugged then ones running newer filters. Our background oil checks between 2 ppm to 4 ppm new, at change they are between 2 ppm to 5 ppm....and the higher value ones you can see where they are injesting a little dust at joints on a stock system.

Bottom line if you install a CAI there are benefits real world....MY 2 CENTS. Just make sure it is a true cold air intake and it is installed properly. My 13 year 7.3 liter with 200k plus miles running a CAI since year one is proof positve of what is being said. My 5 month old 2012 6.7 with 15,000 on it already means nothing.

Why is it that only stock is the best way to go...get out from behind the drawing board there are alot of things out there better then what has been originally produced. Why don't manufacturers use them to start???? Cheaper to go with the cheaper part and lowest bidder but not always the best product.

[Jim W]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Most users of aftermarket CAI in the high HP ranges are aware of the issue of dirt entering the engine from the use of a aftermarket CAI. But they need the advantage of additional air flow to support the fuel for higher HP levels in the truck, this is not necessary to provide cooler EGT’s this is to allow the fuel to be burned..

Jim, If I'm understanding you correctly, then increased dirt intrusion is pretty much a "necessary evil" with CAI?

If that's it, then how/why is a lower velocity standard air filter better able to clean the inducted air, yet the manufacturers are unable to build a higher velocity filter element that is as effective? Or are they available (seems like they would be as there are greater demands in commerical trucking, etc) but just not needed?

John

John,
I believe that it is not a matter of air velocity passing through the air filter as it is the amount of filtering that the filter will do that allows more air flow. What is happening in the aftermarket CAI is the amount of filtration that is occurring. I am using the Cummins Fleetgaurd filter as my example as I am familiar with the performance matrix of this filter.
The Cummins Fleetguard air filter is rated at an efficiency of 99.7% when passing air through the filter. The Fleetguard filter will capture more dirt particles than a filter that is rated at say 99.4% efficiency. The lower efficiency number of an air filter will allow more air to pass through this filter thus helping the engine to obtain more air for the higher horse power requirements.
If you do not plan on modifying the engine to obtain 500 HP or more than in my opinion the stock air box is the best bang for the buck.
Jim W.

[JRTJH]

Thanks Jim... I guess I'm just not comprehending how a CAI on a 6.7L diesel draws dirt because of velocity/volume and a CAI on a 12L 1100 HP semi provides cleaner air...

Not trying to be confrontational, so don't think that's my objective, it's not !!!

I just can't figure out how a small engine sucks dirt with the relatively smaller volume of air (actually, pumps it with the turbo) and a bigger engine rated at far more air volume stays clean ???? It's just confusing to me why somebody can't (or doesn't) make a cleaner filter system for POV size engines (assuming they can/do make them for commercial rigs) I'm sure there is a certain amount of filter size and micron filtration capability, but it seems like someone would have made a larger more finite particulate size filter capability... or maybe it doesn't matter as much as I'm thinking?

[game warden]

Don`t do it ! save the $$$$ those aftermarket filters do not do as good a job as the oem filters for the most part...without giving you a lesson in micron filteration the oem set up is what you want your engine will love you for it and keep your cylinder walls in tip top shape.

[Jim W]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Thanks Jim... I guess I'm just not comprehending how a CAI on a 6.7L diesel draws dirt because of velocity/volume and a CAI on a 12L 1100 HP semi provides cleaner air...

Not trying to be confrontational, so don't think that's my objective, it's not !!!

I just can't figure out how a small engine sucks dirt with the relatively smaller volume of air (actually, pumps it with the turbo) and a bigger engine rated at far more air volume stays clean ???? It's just confusing to me why somebody can't (or doesn't) make a cleaner filter system for POV size engines (assuming they can/do make them for commercial rigs) I'm sure there is a certain amount of filter size and micron filtration capability, but it seems like someone would have made a larger more finite particulate size filter capability... or maybe it doesn't matter as much as I'm thinking?

I am using my experience from Caterpillar and my memory since I have been retired for 3 years.

If I remember correctly the large bore engines used in the on-highway and off highway vehicles use larger air filters than a 350 HP Cummins engine will. These filters will have two to four times the filtering area and even more than the Fleetguard filter does in the 6.7L engine. They also may use a pre-filter ahead of the main filter which is cleaned daily. The filters used on the Cummins and Caterpillar and other diesel engines makes that are of a large bore and higher horse power rated engine will still have the same air filtration requirements such as 99.7 % efficiency but have more surface area to do this in.
Jim W.

[JRTJH]

Thanks, Jim. It just doesn't seem right that small engines with a CAI should suffer reduced filtration while filters for much higher air volume/velocity are available for larger engines. Seems like someone is (or should be) making a filter for common CAI products for smaller size engines that have higher square footage filtration media to negate the reduced filtration of current elements that are in use.

Again, thanks.

John

[SAABDOCTOR]

WOW that was a fun read! K&N makesa great filter as long as it is maintained properly i have run one for years. about the manufactures saying no warranty unless you use our product is illeagal (federal) magnuson ferguson warranty act that says if the manufacturer says you must use their filter then they must provide it for free. the law is printed in most fram catalouges. running one filter from another most people will not feel the increace in power by the seat of your pants. john i am with you how come it filters better if you run more horse power. maybe if can pull 3000 hp we would not need an air filter (just kidding) i have no pitting on my turbo and my oil smaples come back excelent. in the case of the reoil and cleaning that is where people getinto trouble. wash from the inside out and no air chucks to dry them. that is what damages the K&N filters.

[msp2jxr]

I thank everyone for your input. I value it very much... I am running an extra 210 hp in my 6.4 currently so I did feel a CAI was the way to go. I had turned it back down to stock for a while. After the two tanks of 6 mph and the turbo still running very hot I kicked it back up and now my turbo runs cooler and I am touching 10 mpg. I believe the CAI is helping my turbo run cooler. From my gauges and driver seat I would say anywhere between 100 to 200 degrees different depending on whether the truck in on the flat or pulling up a grade. Before the CAI I could not keep the turbo out of the red. With the CAI if takes a very steep hill to get it in the 1200 degree range.

Again thank you for everyone’s comments.

[fla-gypsy]

I have never been a fan of aftermarket add ons of dubious value. The initial cost is high and there is little to support the exagerated claims of power and efficiency increases along with the filtering issue raised already.