Battery question....

[Raptor Dave]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

yup, that's what I did for years, four 6V served me well I only initially went to LFP for the reduced size, weight and maintenance while increasing storage so I could run more stuff while camping. if I had a generator who knows, I personally don't like generators and they are being restricted so bad in parks up here they almost are getting pushed out, so I went solar and battery storage as 2 to 3 hours of genny time a day wouldnt keep up.

I hear ya talkin!
Our toyhauler came with the gen so I felt it crazy to not utilize it when needed.
Most of the time it runs we won't be near shore power so hopefully there won't be peoples around us either. Who knows, in a few years I may be headed down your path and give the LIpo industry time to catch up.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

The RED: Cheap batteries get cheap (potentially problem prone) BMS. Out in the middle of the desert or 15 miles from the closest cell phone tower is not the place to rely on a "cheap battery with its cheap BMS"

that was a wrong choice of words, I mean cheep as in price not quality. just like RV's eh. it did used to be that way when they first started coming out but now litime, chins and a few others use BMS that are actually very high quality, its just some of the features that may not be there, like bluetooth, higher amperage.. the higher amperage capacity is what makes the bms more expansive by a long shot but even then the increase isn't that much, its just like building a RV though, why put a PD converter in it when you can use a WFCO and save 1.99 on each unit. aside from battle born and one other company, I believe, they all use prismatic cells and tear downs of the cheep batteries like the two I mentions show they use high quality BMS and quality cells. so its not like 2 years ago. I agree some people there is no use case for them, people who camp with full hookups. for all the others there is a use case to go LFP batteries and solar and ditch the heavy noisy generators.

but that's just my opinion as I don't like it when your camping and a generator starts up a site or two over when your trying to enjoy your morning coffee in the woods.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by Raptor Dave

I hear ya talkin!
Our toyhauler came with the gen so I felt it crazy to not utilize it when needed.
Most of the time it runs we won't be near shore power so hopefully there won't be peoples around us either. Who knows, in a few years I may be headed down your path and give the LIpo industry time to catch up.

ya, I see a use for gennys , out here we get heat waves where it gets to almost 50C in the valley, I got caught in one once and I was cooling off int he truck a lot, so I wish I had one then, but that's the only time in 40 years I really wished I had a genny and normally I don't camp in the valley and a 30 Minuit drive drops the temp to the high 20's to low 30's which is very acceptable. my 5th wheel was the first thing I had solar added to and I over paid (got it as a dealer addon) and didn't know much so it doesn't preform as good as a different system would have but it keeps up more than enough, unless I try running the electric bar fridge haha. I am going to double the size of the panels and change to a MPPT controller and that should solve that

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

that was a wrong choice of words, I mean cheep as in price not quality. just like RV's eh. it did used to be that way when they first started coming out but now litime, chins and a few others use BMS that are actually very high quality, its just some of the features that may not be there, like bluetooth, higher amperage.. the higher amperage capacity is what makes the bms more expansive by a long shot but even then the increase isn't that much, its just like building a RV though, why put a PD converter in it when you can use a WFCO and save 1.99 on each unit. aside from battle born and one other company, I believe, they all use prismatic cells and tear downs of the cheep batteries like the two I mentions show they use high quality BMS and quality cells. so its not like 2 years ago. I agree some people there is no use case for them, people who camp with full hookups. for all the others there is a use case to go LFP batteries and solar and ditch the heavy noisy generators.

but that's just my opinion as I don't like it when your camping and a generator starts up a site or two over when your trying to enjoy your morning coffee in the woods.

Do you have any specific examples of prices that you can recommend for a 100 A/H lithium battery with a 400 amp BMS with prices that you consider reasonable ???

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Do you have any specific examples of prices that you can recommend for a 100 A/H lithium battery with a 400 amp BMS with prices that you consider reasonable ???

you just being silly now? what would be the point of a 100 amp with a 400 amp BMS? 15 min and the battery is dead? and if you have that kind of draw your going to want two batteries anyways, especially if you have a genny to cut down on your propane use
soo here is a quick one I found that comes close to what you were asking about.


"BMS：100A
Max. Continuous Output Power：1280W
Max. Continuous Charge Current：100A
Max. Continuous Discharge Current：100A
Max. Discharge Current 5 Seconds：280A"

so its not 400 but 280 for 5 seconds so two of those should be more than enough to start a properly working generator and with the sale price they are real cheep. that can be found at litimes and is on sale from the normal 400ish us for 250.00 https://www.litime.com/products/liti...ifepo4-battery

I also did find a 100AH LiFePO4 that will output 1000cca from an Alberta company but that one is 675 cdn, which would be about 4-500ish US https://www.ablithium.ca/product/13-...eated-battery/

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

you just being silly now? what would be the point of a 100 amp with a 400 amp BMS? 15 min and the battery is dead? and if you have that kind of draw your going to want two batteries anyways, especially if you have a genny to cut down on your propane use
soo here is a quick one I found that comes close to what you were asking about....

No, I'm not "just being silly now"... It's a fact that a single GP24 battery can produce 525 amps to start an engine. My $25 Lawn Tractor battery (GP U1) is 370 CCA. Neither is limited to a 5 second load.

The point I have been "attempting to make" since post #36 is simply to state that "lithium is not yet the answer to every application where a battery is required"... One such application is as a starter battery for an internal combustion engine. I think, you've sort of "proved my point" that the cost of trying to jury rig lithium BMS limited batteries to achieve what a simple GP24 for $39 does for much less money and is not a "maintenance burden"....

Once again, My point is: Lithium is not yet advanced enough to be the "end all for every battery application". There's numerous places where a FLA battery far outshines lithium. I'm glad you're happy with your system, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone and for every application.

Also, just as a "note", I've been the "LiTime route" with trying to use their batteries as starter batteries in the past. Here's a "cut and paste of their last Email to me in October of last year, regarding the same battery you listed in the link above:

Oct 23, 2023 10:49 AM
FULL REFUND
Oct 24, 2023 6:33 AM
Dear John,
Good day.
Thank you for your message.
Sorry for the inconvenience caused to you. We currently have a starter battery in development, which is scheduled to go online in the future.
We've like to explain that we have arranged a full refund for your order #xxx-xxxxxx-xxxxx on September 29th.
I've attached a refund for your order.
Best wishes,
Your friend Susan
From LiTime(Originate from Ampere Time)

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

No, I'm not "just being silly now"... It's a fact that a single GP24 battery can produce 525 amps to start an engine. My $25 Lawn Tractor battery (GP U1) is 370 CCA. Neither is limited to a 5 second load.

The point I have been "attempting to make" since post #36 is simply to state that "lithium is not yet the answer to every application where a battery is required"... One such application is as a starter battery for an internal combustion engine. I think, you've sort of "proved my point" that the cost of trying to jury rig lithium BMS limited batteries to achieve what a simple GP24 for $39 does for much less money and is not a "maintenance burden"....

Once again, My point is: Lithium is not yet advanced enough to be the "end all for every battery application". There's numerous places where a FLA battery far outshines lithium. I'm glad you're happy with your system, but that doesn't mean it's right for everyone and for every application.

Also, just as a "note", I've been the "LiTime route" with trying to use their batteries as starter batteries in the past. Here's a "cut and paste of their last Email to me in October of last year, regarding the same battery you listed in the link above:

Oct 23, 2023 10:49 AM
FULL REFUND
Oct 24, 2023 6:33 AM
Dear John,
Good day.
Thank you for your message.
Sorry for the inconvenience caused to you. We currently have a starter battery in development, which is scheduled to go online in the future.
We've like to explain that we have arranged a full refund for your order #xxx-xxxxxx-xxxxx on September 29th.
I've attached a refund for your order.
Best wishes,
Your friend Susan
From LiTime(Originate from Ampere Time)

funny you just ignore the 1000CCA LifePo4 from Alberta lithium to try prove your point.

there are LiFePO4 starting batteries which have better capacity than a sla starting battery and last longer, you have to buy the right battery for your situation you can go out and buy a sla starting battery and expect it to las and work in a deep cycle sla applications, so why would you buy a non starting battery and expect it to work as a starting battery?


and as for the Li time I said for 400cca you would need two not just one. which would give you the added benefit of not having to run your genny as much.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

funny you just ignore the 1000CCA LifePo4 from Alberta lithium to try prove your point.

there are LiFePO4 starting batteries which have better capacity than a sla starting battery and last longer, you have to buy the right battery for your situation you can go out and buy a sla starting battery and expect it to las and work in a deep cycle sla applications, so why would you buy a non starting battery and expect it to work as a starting battery?


and as for the Li time I said for 400cca you would need two not just one. which would give you the added benefit of not having to run your genny as much.

LiTime doesn't share your "theory of using two of their batteries to accomplish what you recommend. In fact, they told me that would void the battery warranty. But.....

ONE item you mentioned I was not aware of: The 1000CCA LifePo4 from Alberta lithium. However, price is $675. I can buy a GP 31 FLA and start my diesel tractor (have been for the 12 years I've owned the tractor with the same battery) and kept $625 in my pocket.....

I'm done discussing this with you. If you believe lithium is the answer to every battery application, then by all means, spend YOUR money on what you prefer. At the same time, I request that you consider that I DO NOT have that same attraction to lithium and DO NOT feel the same as you about the subject.

Trust me when I say there is room for both of us to have our opinion. I've said as much as I'm going to say about the topic in this thread.

[Raptor Dave]

So we took off Monday for 3 days and set up in a dry spot to see where we would end up with this battery set up.
Had pretty good sunshine most of the time so no problems with replenish during the day. It put the solar in float mode pretty quick. (I guess that's a good thing) Ran the gen a little in the morning to grind our coffee beans and run the coffee pot. Poured it all in a thermos and shut the gen down.
After the sun disappeared we had a few lights on and watched a little tv. Ran the gen for a microwave supper for a short and turned it off.
Did all of heating with our propane buddy heater so the furnace didn't need to cycle.
Generally the batteries read 12.3-4 when we woke up. The lowest it ever got was 12.1
I believe for now the 2 6v may work out for us.
I was a little disappointed to only find 3 solar outlets in the entire rig.
I called Keystone and they told me I should have 7!
One in the bedroom next to the bed on the front works.
The tv in the bedroom works.
The tv in the main living area works.
The one in the bedroom that was marked solar between the bed and bath wall had nothing.
Not sure what I'll have to do to chase this down.
When I get a little time I'll rattle Keystone customer service again and see what they recommend I guess.
Thanks for all the recommendations and help in making the decision.

[JRTJH]

12.3 is 70%, 12.4 is 80%, so those days you were "good to go". 12.1 is around 54-56%, so you were getting close at that voltage, but still good to go. What would be worrisome for me, would be the lack of using the furnace, which could put you below the 50% threshold. It looks like without the furnace, you're OK, but if you had an unexpected cold snap, turning on the furnace might start getting "dicey"...

[Raptor Dave]

Thanks for the chart.
It got down to around 40 in the late eve, early morning. It stays about 66-67 inside with only one plate burning on low. It'll sweat you out with both plates turned on at that outside temp.
My feeling is if it's going down lower than 35-40 where we're at for more than a night or 2, we're pulling up tent pegs and headed to warmer weather.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by Raptor Dave

So we took off Monday for 3 days and set up in a dry spot to see where we would end up with this battery set up.
Had pretty good sunshine most of the time so no problems with replenish during the day. It put the solar in float mode pretty quick. (I guess that's a good thing) Ran the gen a little in the morning to grind our coffee beans and run the coffee pot. Poured it all in a thermos and shut the gen down.
After the sun disappeared we had a few lights on and watched a little tv. Ran the gen for a microwave supper for a short and turned it off.
Did all of heating with our propane buddy heater so the furnace didn't need to cycle.
Generally the batteries read 12.3-4 when we woke up. The lowest it ever got was 12.1
I believe for now the 2 6v may work out for us.
I was a little disappointed to only find 3 solar outlets in the entire rig.
I called Keystone and they told me I should have 7!
One in the bedroom next to the bed on the front works.
The tv in the bedroom works.
The tv in the main living area works.
The one in the bedroom that was marked solar between the bed and bath wall had nothing.
Not sure what I'll have to do to chase this down.
When I get a little time I'll rattle Keystone customer service again and see what they recommend I guess.
Thanks for all the recommendations and help in making the decision.

when I was running four 6V battery I could use the microwave no issues on the batteries and a 2000watt inverter. but having said that the longest we ran the microwave was warming up leftovers for dinner or making popcorn haha

I don't like the way they are wiring solar in only on certain plugs, I guess that's why you have to run the genny to use the microwave. I have my inverter go directly to the AC distribution in the power panel on its own breaker so it will feed every plug and appliance. you still won't be able to run an ac though and you have to rewire the power supply for your converter section so it only gets power when plugged in, or turn it off at the breaker when you are running the inverter.

[Raptor Dave]

Question....
Is it ok to mix different AH 6v batteries?
Say 2 -230AH with 2 -210AH for a 4 pack?

[foldbak]

Originally Posted by Raptor Dave

Question....
Is it ok to mix different AH 6v batteries?
Say 2 -230AH with 2 -210AH for a 4 pack?

It's not recommended, they won't charge evenly. If you do make sure their the same chemistry, flooded, AGM, etc.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by Raptor Dave

Question....
Is it ok to mix different AH 6v batteries?
Say 2 -230AH with 2 -210AH for a 4 pack?

You can, they will, if wired correctly, still provide 12 VDC. That said, you'll undercharge the 230AH batteries and/or overcharge the 210AH set. Why? Your charger can't/won't differentiate the separate battery size. The charger ONLY senses the need for a charge in the "entire battery set", so the 210AH batteries will "fill up with electrons" and the 230AH set will still want more, so the charger "keeps on pumping electrons", Unfortunately, those electrons will still be "pumping into the full 210AH set, "ballooning those batteries" by overcharging them. If you "turn off the converter" to protect the 210AH set, the 230AH set will never see a full charge.....

So, yes, you "can do it" but you're going to stress one set and under-use the other set. Eventually that will cause the batteries to fail.

[Raptor Dave]

Info I was looking for.

Thanks guys.