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Old 04-24-2020, 11:16 AM   #21
mtofell
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Originally Posted by xrated View Post
Combining the Axle Weight Ratings as a basis for the actual payload of the truck hasn't officially been used for years and years...maybe longer.
I never said otherwise.... I wasn't aware they ever did.
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Old 04-24-2020, 11:29 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by flybouy View Post
" I am just a weekend warrior and don't get out nearly as often as I wish. If I were out more I'd certainly upgrade to a more capable truck. "

These type statements confuse and amuse me. Can anyone tell me how a hunk of iron setting on 4 rubber pads of road contact can tell that you " don't intend to drive more often"? Or how does it know you are only driving less than X amount of miles" I now I'm not the smartest guy around but I've never owned any vehicle with that type of intuition.
I assume this is directed at me - if you go through my posts I'm right at my 10,000# GVWR. I said if I towed more I would get a more capable truck meaning so I'd have a larger cushion.

Back in college I had some risk analysis classes and this line of thinking is a well established premise. It goes something like this:

Risk=Impact X Probability / Cost

Probability is directly correlated to the number of times a given event takes place.

Of course, an accident is not a risk we want to play around with but the fact remains that the more times a person tows the risk goes up. This is what ultimately motivates the decisions we all make.

Why don't we all tow popup trailers with DRW trucks? Why don't we all have bank vault doors on the front of our house? Because we are willing to accept the "risk" of using a lesser tool.
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Old 04-24-2020, 11:39 AM   #23
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My DW was in a mva about 6 years ago (hit in an intersection). We hired an accident reconstructionist. I met him at the Ford dealership's body shop and helped him (held the dumb end of the tape measure) take the many, many measurements on sight line distances etc. He then "downloaded" the truck's (F150 KR). "black box" contents. Then it was off to the crash site where again I held the "dumb end". At the crash site the DW gave the investigator her story of what happened.

Long intro but with this info we met with him about 2 weeks later. The detail in his report amazed me. The exact time of impact, the speed of her truck and the vehicle that hit her. The exact weight and axle weights as well as outside air Temps and about 100 other measurements. I was waiting for him to tell what she ate that day. He also said all the info was "consistent" with her initial statement.

Point being, God forbid you get into a serious accident running "heavy". Any decent attorney will find out. And any decent attorney will dig into social media and if you have posted somewhere that you're "all good" with operating above the published maximums then you fall into culpability and responsibility because you can't plead ignorance, now you have evidence of knowing and deciding to ignore those operating maximum parameters.

JMHO, YMMV


I wasn't going to comment on this thread because the important points have been made (don't exceed any weight limit) but this post brings up something that needs to be emphasized IMO.

When we tell a new person to towing, maybe never dropped a trailer behind a pickup in their life, that exceeding any/all ratings except either rawr or tire ratings (or any of them) is OK is setting the unknowing, inexperienced new RVer up for a possible catastrophic experience.


If you've towed multiple types and sizes of trailers you know that each of them has an effect on the way the TV operates - definitely not like driving around unloaded. Compound that with the presence of worn, broken or missing equipment and the picture just gets more bleak. But, the above holds true for even a brand new truck towing in an overloaded state. Now, when that person towing that 12,100 lb. trailer behind his 8 year old 10k+ lb. truck encounters something....anything, without a lot of towing experience and recognizing the precautions one should take prior to, or during, a panic situation, what might have been a near miss for an experienced person could very easily turn into catastrophe.

All trucks, trailers, drivers and equipment are not created the same and one needs to err on the side of safety and caution. When counseling someone with unknown experience or equipment it is even more important and given the extent of the information available nowadays to experienced investigators it's just asking for trouble to do it. JMO
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Old 04-24-2020, 12:01 PM   #24
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Addressing the previous two posts, using black box technology to obtain vehicle status and recommending that someone "can ignore the manufacturer's instructions" think about this:

Curt just bought the "better weigh" technology and sells it as a "vehicle/hitch scale" used to visualize tongue weight, payload, vehicle weight, weight distribution and axle loading by using the vehicle's sensors to transmit that data to your "smart phone". https://www.curtmfg.com/part/51701

It shouldn't be a surprise that the same information is stored in the vehicle computer/black box. In fact, the Ford Owner's Manual states that "information stored in the vehicle computer may be obtained and may be shared with some law enforcement and investigative authorities".

Essentially, in this day and age, no longer are you "out there towing on your own and if you skip a step, nobody will ever know"... It's being recorded, in real time, not only to keep the data available, but trust me, if you decide to sue Ford because of a truck issue, they'll have most of that information already in their "VIN specific file, stored in Detroit and readily available to their legal team."...

Remember those "vehicle health reports" that we were sending via cell phone on a monthly basis? I'd suspect that much more than mileage and oil change status was being shared. Now, they don't even need us to send it to them, they can access the computer every time you go into the dealership for an oil change and if you NEVER even drive by the dealership, I'd not be surprised if they (all the auto manufacturers) don't have access to their proprietary data that's stored in your truck. Surely, even if they aren't "spying on you" they will obtain a court order to download your black box data in the event of any legal action.... Not to blame you, of course, but rather to "certify that what you did, wasn't their fault".....

ADDED: And, since most insurance companies offer a discount if a "driver device" is added to the vehicle, you can bet that all the information available to the auto manufacturer is also being monitored by your insurance company... The day of 'big brother is watching' is upon us.

It shocked me when I had my SlingShot in for an oil change that the service manager asked me what it felt like to be driving 97MPH in 4th gear. I look at him with a blank stare, he just replied, on "such and such a date, at such and such a time, you were in 4th gear, 6800 RPM and 97 MPH. Trust me, if Polaris can track that kind of information on a tricycle motorcycle, you know Ford, GM and Fiat also have that capability.
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Old 04-24-2020, 12:08 PM   #25
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I never said otherwise.... I wasn't aware they ever did.
Your quote...."I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you."

And that is why I said what I did.
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Old 04-24-2020, 12:17 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Northofu1 View Post
Why did I hear that in Rod Sterling's voice?
I know.... When I was chatting with the Polaris service manager and he made those comments, I had that "deer in the headlights look" and then, later, when talking about it with the service manager at Ford, he just smiled and said, "You can't do much with that truck that we don't know about before you bring it in for service"....

OOPS, so much for claiming I don't know what happened that caused the complaint....

Maybe not from the Twilight Zone, but Big Brother is watching...
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Old 04-24-2020, 12:42 PM   #27
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Just for clarification, is everyone using the correct numbers for the calcs? Isn't Curb Weight the weight of the truck without cargo or passengers? At 6787 lbs Curb Weight that gives the OP a little more head room to work with depending on how he loads the truck.
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Old 04-24-2020, 01:23 PM   #28
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Your quote...."I lean more towards just going by the axle limits (which includes tires, brakes, etc.) but it's up to you."

And that is why I said what I did.
That's totally different from the quote of yours that I was replying to - that being that I said GVWR (and payload) is calculated by adding FAWR and RAWR. I know that's not the case and didn't say or imply it in anything I wrote.

The quote above is just my opinion on the matter and has nothing to do with how ratings are calculated.
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Old 04-24-2020, 01:26 PM   #29
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Just for clarification, is everyone using the correct numbers for the calcs? Isn't Curb Weight the weight of the truck without cargo or passengers? At 6787 lbs Curb Weight that gives the OP a little more head room to work with depending on how he loads the truck.
Curb weight is "irrelevant" when it comes to a truck "as it sits in the owner's garage"... That's like using "shipping weight" for an RV. Once the dealership fills the propane tanks and adds a battery, installs the spare tire and rack, the "shipping weight" will never be relevant...

If, on the other hand, you're saying "curb weight" can be used in the same connotation as "vehicle weight", then they should be the same... But, to use the "curb weight" of 6787 pounds with scaled axle weights of 5000 and 3700, well something doesn't add up there....

The OP did post that his "scaled figures" were gleaned from another post and not from his own vehicle, so we're really "making WAGS or SWAGS" rather than dealing with reality...
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Old 04-24-2020, 01:55 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mtofell View Post
I assume this is directed at me - if you go through my posts I'm right at my 10,000# GVWR. I said if I towed more I would get a more capable truck meaning so I'd have a larger cushion.

Back in college I had some risk analysis classes and this line of thinking is a well established premise. It goes something like this:

Risk=Impact X Probability / Cost

Probability is directly correlated to the number of times a given event takes place.

Of course, an accident is not a risk we want to play around with but the fact remains that the more times a person tows the risk goes up. This is what ultimately motivates the decisions we all make.

Why don't we all tow popup trailers with DRW trucks? Why don't we all have bank vault doors on the front of our house? Because we are willing to accept the "risk" of using a lesser tool.
Not wanting to be argumentative just wanting to understand this. I stated that the quote was the type of statement. If your clarification for that is your formula then you are placing zero as your denominator (assuming no cost to buy another truck) then the risk equals zero. At least that's what I was taught in grade school , that any number multiplied by zero = zero and any number divide by, or into zero = zero. It's been over 5 decades since I was in grade school but I don't think the "new math" changed that.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:00 PM   #31
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Not wanting to be argumentative just wanting to understand this. I stated that the quote was the type of statement. If your clarification for that is your formula then you are placing zero as your denominator (assuming no cost to buy another truck) then the risk equals zero. At least that's what I was taught in grade school , that any number multiplied by zero = zero and any number divide by, or into zero = zero. It's been over 5 decades since I was in grade school but I don't think the "new math" changed that.
I guess you've just disproved a well known and used theory taught and used throughout the world. Perhaps, someone should alert the universities.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:02 PM   #32
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Curb weight is "irrelevant" when it comes to a truck "as it sits in the owner's garage"... That's like using "shipping weight" for an RV. Once the dealership fills the propane tanks and adds a battery, installs the spare tire and rack, the "shipping weight" will never be relevant...

If, on the other hand, you're saying "curb weight" can be used in the same connotation as "vehicle weight", then they should be the same... But, to use the "curb weight" of 6787 pounds with scaled axle weights of 5000 and 3700, well something doesn't add up there....

The OP did post that his "scaled figures" were gleaned from another post and not from his own vehicle, so we're really "making WAGS or SWAGS" rather than dealing with reality...





Yep but he did say he was hitting the scales today so hopefully we can find out what those actuals are. Figure it might be enlightening to all; particularly the OP.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:10 PM   #33
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Yep but he did say he was hitting the scales today so hopefully we can find out what those actuals are. Figure it might be enlightening to all; particularly the OP.
…………...
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:34 PM   #34
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I guess you've just disproved a well known and used theory taught and used throughout the world. Perhaps, someone should alert the universities.
The formula is fine, if used for a project say, entering a simple business partnership. I have a BIL who is a Certified Insurance Fraud Investigator. Before getting that cert. he was an actuary at an insurance company for many years. I've seen the actuarial tables and formulas and they made my head spin.

The formula is a tool, if used correctly I'm sure it works. If I see someone use a flat blade screwdriver as a cold chisel I try to explain why it's not the proper tool for the application.
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Old 04-24-2020, 02:42 PM   #35
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I assume this is directed at me - if you go through my posts I'm right at my 10,000# GVWR. I said if I towed more I would get a more capable truck meaning so I'd have a larger cushion.

Back in college I had some risk analysis classes and this line of thinking is a well established premise. It goes something like this:

Risk=Impact X Probability / Cost

Probability is directly correlated to the number of times a given event takes place.

Of course, an accident is not a risk we want to play around with but the fact remains that the more times a person tows the risk goes up. This is what ultimately motivates the decisions we all make.

Why don't we all tow popup trailers with DRW trucks? Why don't we all have bank vault doors on the front of our house? Because we are willing to accept the "risk" of using a lesser tool.


Wouldn't we call that "risk analysis" equation "gambling"? Obviously a useful tool for many things but for towing overweight it wouldn't seem to apply. Sort of like putting 2500 lb. rated tires under a 5k load. You can do that analysis and it might say it's OK....for a little bit, but it is going to fail - you just don't know when. When it does, and what ever damage comes from it, could have been avoided. But that goes with any and all gambling. Just a different view of it I guess.
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Old 04-24-2020, 04:09 PM   #36
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I agree with Danny if we compare doing something wrong and hope we do not get caught or found at fault that is gambling, I do that at a casino not on the public roadways. I have used the idea of Risk vs Impact and Cost throughout my police officer job as all cops do who plan a mission and I suppose many do who plan a military mission. We would not use that idea when we know we are doing something wrong or illegal. It would prevent the mission as too much Risk, Impact and Cost.
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Old 04-24-2020, 05:35 PM   #37
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All of the above are going way over what you need to know. You are fine, use your truck and life goes on. You have insurance and they will cover you.


Enjoy the travels.
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Old 04-24-2020, 06:50 PM   #38
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I enjoy the "broad brush" statements that imply EVERYONE ELSE that has commented is wrong, just ignore the facts, plod on and if you screw up someone else will pay for it. Sorry but I'm not that cavalier nor naiveté.
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Old 04-24-2020, 06:59 PM   #39
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I have challenged some on here to call their agent. Give them all the true weight ratings on the truck and the RV. If their over by any of the ratings will they still be covered. None that I asked have replied that they did and what the answer was.
I look at that answer like this, several times a year I stop and cite a person without a drivers license and after I hand them a ticket these folks ask me, "Can I just drive home?" Guess what my answer must be you choose what you would do.
#1 Yes, go ahead and break the law. I know your doing it. I will not make any attempt to stop you. I now have personal and dept. liability for your actions and am willing to be named in any law suit if you harm anyone.
#2 No.
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Old 04-24-2020, 10:18 PM   #40
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All of the above are going way over what you need to know. You are fine, use your truck and life goes on. You have insurance and they will cover you.


Enjoy the travels.
Until it doesn't!
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