Front cap crack

Weberving · 03-29-2020, 01:45 PM

Any one out there have the same crack as I do? The crack is on the left upper corner just in front of the gutter down spout. I noticed this as just a small crack but has been getting bigger over time.

I paid cash for my 2019 33rl Montana High Country from Curtis RV in Aloha Oregon. Nic Billings the Asst. service manager reported this to Keystone as Customer Damage even though to this day there is not one scratch on my Coach. I have been fighting with Misty Martin at Keystone Manufacture Customer Relations for months now. Mind you she has never seen the rig in person she continues to hold her position on the word of Nic Billings of Curtis Rv as Customer Damage.

Since Misty Martin of Keytone Customer Relations continues to denied this claim as Customer damage she adviced me to take it to my insurance Compile repairs and pay the deductible to have our Coach fixed. The insurance company has looked at my Coach and advised me the crack is in fact not Customer Damage but a defect at the time of install. Keytone ground down the fiberglass in the corner to .014” to make the cap align with the plywood roofing. The insurance company brought even more factory issues to my attention in this corner while doing their review. The plywood is missing or ground down to allow for alignment causing a lack of support under the vinyl roofing. The insurance company documented their findings along with photo’s and stated they could not repair because it was not damaged by owner or storm and would be fraudulent for them to do so. They told me to get a second opinion on the crack and the plywood they brought to my attention. I took it to Poulsbo Rv in Kent Washington and they also concluded there was no customer damage but there was fiberglass and wood issues in the corner causing a lack of structural integrity.

I have sent all this information in a certified letter to Misty Martin for review and receive a response back stating Keystone Manufacturing is still standing behind their finding from Curtis Rv as Customer Damage and is closing the claim at this time.

What does the Keystone community suggest to get Misty Martin and Keystone Manufacture Warranty Relations to step up and do what’s right under my 1yr & 3 yr structural warranty?

Very upset Keystone owner

66joej · 03-29-2020, 02:26 PM

Why did Ric Billings from Curtis RV say it was customer damage?

**JRTJH** · 03-29-2020, 03:01 PM

First, YOUR dealer stated it IS customer damage. There is a reason why that assessment was made. Until you "find out why that was reported AND get any errors corrected" you're probably going to be facing an impossible uphill battle.

Second, Poulsbo Rv (not a Keystone dealer) inspected and disagreed with the Keystone dealer. Since they have no relationship with Keystone, their "weighted assessment" is no more valid than your opinion or your neighbor's opinion. I'm not suggesting their opinion is incorrect, just that it doesn't carry the weight of an "official Keystone service center" opinion...

I think you need to locate a KEYSTONE dealership to make another "independent inspection" and have that reported to Keystone. If another "official KEYSTONE dealer" says it is customer damage, you're pretty much "dead in the water" until you start legal action. If, on the other hand, another KEYSTONE dealer submits a report disputing the initial report, you may have a chance at getting the position reversed.

If I were you, I'd find a KEYSTONE dealer to inspect and provide a second opinion. An "outside competing dealer's opinion" likely won't ever carry as much weight as a Keystone dealership's comments.

Is there a KEYSTONE dealership that you can get to make an inspection?

Weberving · 03-29-2020, 03:03 PM

Wish I knew. I have and had other issues with my Coach and this dealer. Like the entry door that had a 1/2 gap at the top and drug on the top of the left stair leg. The only way to open and close the door was to leave the adjustable leg all the way retracted and stand on bottom step to hold down. He listed on my invoice as “Opening in wall cut out of square and door installed crooked from factory”. He installed a new door that Keystone “Good Willed” that never needed to be installed. The original door was just fine it just needed to be realigned. This cost me $747.00 in labor and materials. That was some expensive silicone and screws.

The cable on the dining room slide was frayed after 2 dozen uses. The same invoice noted bracket was misaligned causing cable to rub on pulley. Re aligned bracket and replaced cable. Keystone paid for the cable and I was charged the 1 hour diagnostic and parts for $178.00. Now the cable has a 2” droop in it which insurance company also pointed out to me. This all should have been covered under warranty but Nic Billings claimed the door took 4.5 hrs and Keystone covered 1 hr of the labor. Everyone person I have talked to about this state Nic should have called Keystone and asked for additional labor time for their opening cut out of square. All should have been covered. He can’t loss money so I have to pay the difference.

This is way I am reaching out to people for help. I have seen the Facebook sites with unhappy Keystone owners and there are a lot. Many with water problems. Most of which are less than 1-2 years old and Keystone is jerking them around to. Been waiting to hear from our Lawyer but with the Coronavirus who knows how long this will take know.

Weberving · 03-29-2020, 03:11 PM

Poulsbo Rv is a Keystone Certified Service Center. And did document their finding.

**sourdough** · 03-29-2020, 05:29 PM

You have no issue with Keystone. You do however have a huge issue with the dealership you are dealing with. You could get another Keystone dealer, hopefully qualified, to reassess the damage and send Keystone their take. If they agree it is customer damage you're going to be out of luck - there has to be a reason multiple, independent dealers would view it that way.

IMO you are getting the short end of the stick from your current dealership and this Nic guy. You say he is the "assistant" service manager; why in the world have you not escalated this to the service manager and owner of the facility?? A good dealership can 1) assess the issue accurately, 2) convey that problem convincingly to Keystone and 3) get the issues resolved generally. Sounds like your dealership fails on all counts. Until then, if the dealership tells them this is customer caused their ears are going to be closed to anything you have to say. You will absolutely have to up your game with the dealership along with getting another certified dealer to counter what your dealer has already done to you. I would be front and center with the owner of your dealership tomorrow demanding every word sent to Keystone and the how and why those assessments were made if you want this to go your way.

Roscommon48 · 03-29-2020, 06:33 PM

I'd also push the Keystone issue up to a higher level person.

And, if possible, get it to Goshen, IN for the fall Montana Rally and let the techs there assess it.

Ken / Claudia · 03-30-2020, 09:31 AM

Post #5, so that dealer did document the problem and is a Keystone dealer. No mention if you had them contact Keystone, if not why not. That might have ended this problem at that point.

Weberving · 03-30-2020, 10:36 AM

The dealer I bought it from sent in the claim “Customer claims Fiberglas is thin in corner”. Curtis Rv’s diagnostic “Customer Damage” the customer hit something. Misty at Keystone Warranty desk has held fast with their diagnoses even though the insurance company and Certified service center Pouslbo Rv in Kent Washington have document there is no findings any damge what so ever on the entire Coach. AND that the crack is due to fiberglass be ground down in the corner.

How Misty will stand so strong on one mans word. Both insurance and Pouslbo have made more of a possible plywood issue in the same corner. This is something I did not catch when doing my investigation.

Who out there can say the corner is not the most re enforced part of the front cap. I retrieved a piece of the fiberglass that measures .014” while insurance and Poulsbo say the corner should be no less than 1/4 in thick. The service center showed me a new cap they were get ready to install I can say was more than 1/4” I the same corner. As they fiberglass guy said to me. If you feel comfortable in a boat with a the bow .014” thick then you braver than me.

**JRTJH** · 03-30-2020, 11:37 AM

To use an old adage: "You only have one chance to make a good first impression".....

Your dealer "screwed the pooch" for you on that one. From their "customer damage report" forward, it's going to be an uphill battle. Are you right to be upset? Probably, and if what you're saying is "truly representative of the entire fact trail" then definitely, you've been wronged.

Now, the damage is done, the question (at least for me) becomes, "Is the effort and expense worth the cost?" For some, any expense to win is justified, for others, it's cheaper and quicker to just fix the damn thing and get on with life. For others, a compromise between both extremes....

The question you need to answer is: "Is it worth it to me?"... Only you can answer that.....

Towing to Goshen for the Montana Owner's Factory Rally may be an "inroad to changing the Keystone first impression.... What will it cost to "gamble on that?" Again, probably more than the cost of the repair when you consider a cross country trip of 5K miles and expenses for that trip.... Only you can answer for your situation.

Ken / Claudia · 03-30-2020, 01:50 PM

Back to my question since it was not answered, did Pouslbo RV contact Keystone with the information you got from them.
You said several times they documented their findings. Never that they contacted Keystone with their documented findings. Maybe documented to you means they contacted Keystone, to me it means they agreed with you nothing more.

Weberving · 03-30-2020, 02:38 PM

Ken/Claudia

Near the Insurance or Poulsbo contacted Keystone them. They wrote a letter to me stating their finding and 57 photos. This also included the plywood and vinyl roof issue the insurance company will not repair down the road if something goes wrong since they had to document issues. As for Poulsbo they stated in their repair quote the finds that fiberglass had been removed during assembly and to repair the front cap would have to come off so repair could be done from both sides since there is not enough material to support work from the outside. All both estimate and Ins findings was sent by emailed to Misty and also a certified letter with a thumb drive with all insurance photos were sent and signed for.

Response by email was we understand your frustration but as we have numerous time we stand behind our original finding as Customer Damage and at this time will close your claim.

REALLY!!

Ken / Claudia · 03-31-2020, 07:07 AM

You asked for opinions and help. Here's my take now that I have more facts.
Going to your ins, co. was smart. After that you really have not helped yourself much.
At Curtis you dealt with the asist. service manager. They should also have a service manager, a general manager and owner. They need to hear the facts from your research by you.
You had another Keystone dealer look at the problem and they said its not customer damage. You should have sent that to the service manager, general manager and owner of Curtis.
After the 2nd Keystone dealer did look at the problem, WHY in the world would they not stand behind the trailer and present their findings to Keystone. Nothing mentioned about that. If they turned that down, WHY.
According to your information. You bypassed several local chances to get things taken care of.

Weberving · 03-31-2020, 11:08 AM

Ken
Do you see the photo showing the wrinkle roof and how the plywood is missing or has been tapered causing the vinyl roof to be wrinkled. I have removed and resealed this with decor twice now and it will not adhere because the material has no backing behind it. This was brought to my attention by the adjuster. I can not remove plywood or would a accident make this happen. Keystone should has see these photo’s. They know what they are into $$ wise and do not what to do what’s right.
We have taken yours and others advice and contact Poulsbo Rv and set up an appointment to pull the front cap off to see the real picture as to what is going on With the plywood they both believe is missing and the crack. Pouslbo is will you contact Keystone with their finding after cap is pull off.

As for Curtis Rv I will have nothing to do with them. I will Travel ever year to Oregon and camp out at every Rv show from now till I die telling people to stay way from Curtis Rv and Keystone/Thor products.

I want to thank you for all your advise and look forward to all of you out there. I will update you as to what my Lawyer and Pouslbo come up with.

P.S. this is all done on my phone so don’t judge me!

**JRTJH** · 03-31-2020, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weberving

Ken
Do you see the photo showing the wrinkle roof and how the plywood is missing or has been tapered causing the vinyl roof to be wrinkled. I have removed and resealed this with decor twice now and it will not adhere because the material has no backing behind it. This was brought to my attention by the adjuster. I can not remove plywood or would a accident make this happen. Keystone should has see these photo’s. They know what they are into $$ wise and do not what to do what’s right.
We have taken yours and others advice and contact Poulsbo Rv and set up an appointment to pull the front cap off to see the real picture as to what is going on With the plywood they both believe is missing and the crack. Pouslbo is will you contact Keystone with their finding after cap is pull off.

As for Curtis Rv I will have nothing to do with them. I will Travel ever year to Oregon and camp out at every Rv show from now till I die telling people to stay way from Curtis Rv and Keystone/Thor products.

I want to thank you for all your advise and look forward to all of you out there. I will update you as to what my Lawyer and Pouslbo come up with.

P.S. this is all done on my phone so don’t judge me!

If you post a request for "what should I do" on any forum, don't be angered by receiving "honest and unfiltered opinions".... You may not like the responses you get, you may view them "entirely different from the intended message" or you may find "spot on suggestions"... How you use them is entirely up to you, but everyone who responded (or will respond) will give you their "judgement on your situation"... in that, all of us are "judging you", "judging what you've done (or failed to do) on your own behalf" and in your first post, you did ask for exactly that !!!!!

Ken / Claudia · 03-31-2020, 11:35 AM

I seen the photos, read and reread you posts. Being around lawyers, having law suits filed for me and against me in criminal and civil cases. I will not give legal advice, but am fairly certain what a lawyer will say and do it this case with what you said. Hopefully you can get 1 with a free hour of their time and get a good opinion. That may or may not be an opinion you want to hear.
Good Luck.

travelin texans · 03-31-2020, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

I seen the photos, read and reread you posts. Being around lawyers, having law suits filed for me and against me in criminal and civil cases. I will not give legal advice, but am fairly certain what a lawyer will say and do it this case with what you said. Hopefully you can get 1 with a free hour of their time and get a good opinion. That may or may not be an opinion you want to hear.
Good Luck.

And the lawyer gets paid, win or lose after that 1st free hour.

**flybouy** · 03-31-2020, 12:59 PM

I'm not an attorney and I don't play one on television so what I'm about to tell you is strictly based on observation and common sense.

Once a lawyer is retained a chain of events will most likely be triggered.

1. all communication between the litigants will cease. The only communication will be between your attorney and their attorneys.
2. nothing will happen (repairs) until settlement, which most likely be over a year from the start.
3. most attorneys will not accept these type cases on a "no win no cost to you" basis
4. the cost will vastly exceed the cost of the repair. Typically a lawyer will require several thousands up front as a retainer, then every court motion or document filed in court, or "expert witness" or inspection, etc. will be paid out of pocket. These are costs are rarely recouped.
5. you're attorney will most likely instruct you to not talk about the "case" or "issue" with anyone, especially on social media.

Again, these are my opinions. You of course have the choice to do what you wish.

fordmd · 04-05-2020, 08:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ken / Claudia

Back to my question since it was not answered, did Pouslbo RV contact Keystone with the information you got from them.
You said several times they documented their findings. Never that they contacted Keystone with their documented findings. Maybe documented to you means they contacted Keystone, to me it means they agreed with you nothing more.

He said several times that he’s been in contact with keystone warranty and they are holding fast to their dealers assessment. So the question asked was answered. Further, this is how warranty service works. The dealer is the eyes, ears and judgment for the manufacturer. Documented means, I’m the world of vehicles, to record findings and attach that information to to vehicle record.

Ken / Claudia · 04-05-2020, 11:22 AM

I certainly have been wrong in my life at least once, but I disagree with the last post. Maybe I missed something, I agree I know how the warranty works, it's through the dealer. That was the whole point of my questions.
Since I think I am right, here's my take using his words.
Curtis turned it down through the ***. service manager as a warranty and so did Keystone.
He spend months fighting with Misty not the dealer.
His ins. said it was not customer damage and they documented that. He went to Poulsbo RV a Keystone dealer. They Documented that is was not customer damage.
He send that information to Keystone.
My opinion, if it was me. I would have taken the ins. information back to the 1st dealer speaking to the owner directly. If that failed ask the 2nd dealer to to submit their findings to Keystone. After my posts he said he did none of that, but only after asking 2 times.
I needed his definition of documenting vs. contacting. To hear if I was missing that the 2nd dealer send their document to keystone.

You may also like: