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Old 02-16-2020, 06:22 PM   #1
tomkat2
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Real World Pin Weights

Looking for owners to share their real world pin weights. I'm considering a 10th Anniversary Montana High Country 294RL. Smaller 5er with 14300GVWR and a factory pin weight of 2300 lbs. I understand the math to determine pin weight with 1500lb gear added (we are not full timers), but the pin weight percentages can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer, rig to rig, anywhere from 20-25%. For example, Grand design 5ers tend to run about 22-24% pin weights to GVWR. Some Forest River models run 18 to 20%. It's all quite a spread!
Would love to find a couple owners who have weighed their rigs and determined "real world pin weight" percentages for Montana HC 5ers, and share trailer weights loaded and the resulting pin weights. Thanks in advance! Let's see what happens.
Oh, I will be towing with a 2018 RAM 3500, 6.7 Diesel, Laramie CC, SRW. All the numbers fit fine, except the pin weight vs the available payload. Pretty close on those...Thanks again!
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:32 PM   #2
77cruiser
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My 331 goes about 2900 but I added a W/D. It is advertised at 2300 empty like yours.
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Old 02-16-2020, 06:42 PM   #3
JRTJH
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As a "rule of thumb" I've found (as you said) pin weights vary from model to model and manufacturer to manufacturer. One "generalized rule" that I found to be fairly accurate for "making educated guesses" is to take the "empty pin weight percentage" and then use that number to calculate the estimated pin weight at the cargo load you plan to add to the trailer.

In other words, if the trailer specs indicate a shipping weight of 12,000 pounds with a pin weight of 1800 pounds (15% pin weight) then if you're planning to add 1500 pounds of cargo, 15% of that will likely be "on the pin"...

And, if the trailer weighs 12,000 pounds and the pin weighs 2640 pounds (22% pin weight) then if you add 1500 pounds of cargo, then 22% of that will be "on the pin"

While it doesn't always work out that way, generally, you can pretty well estimate the loaded pin weight percentage by using the empty pin weight percentage as a "fairly accurate starting point".

Now, if you're going to add "big pound items" to the nose of the trailer (washer and dryer or generator or "big solar system with multiple batteries) this method won't even be close.....
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:26 PM   #4
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Weight & Balance

I don’t know what a “dry pin weight is”. We never had it weighed before we loaded it. The trailer manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight is for the trailers GVWR. If you work real hard when balance your cargo loads you can attain that recommendation. However, fivers are much harder to get an even balance because of all the cargo space forward of the axles. Our trailer had a 2100# manufacturer recommended tongue weight that was about 15%, a ball park figure. To keep our actual tongue weight at or below 2700# we had to carry our books, shoes and seasonal clothing in storage areas aft of the axles. The area for our optional washer/dryer was just forward of the forward axle. Almost all newer Keystone fivers W/D options are above the trailer’s pin making it more difficult to balance cargo loads.

When it comes to balancing your cargo loads you’re going to find it’s a hands on task that will require numerous trips to the scales to work-out.

Remember, it’s a fulcrum and simple math will help work it out.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...1&d=1581909868
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Old 02-16-2020, 07:30 PM   #5
sourdough
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomkat2 View Post
Looking for owners to share their real world pin weights. I'm considering a 10th Anniversary Montana High Country 294RL. Smaller 5er with 14300GVWR and a factory pin weight of 2300 lbs. I understand the math to determine pin weight with 1500lb gear added (we are not full timers), but the pin weight percentages can vary quite a bit from manufacturer to manufacturer, rig to rig, anywhere from 20-25%. For example, Grand design 5ers tend to run about 22-24% pin weights to GVWR. Some Forest River models run 18 to 20%. It's all quite a spread!
Would love to find a couple owners who have weighed their rigs and determined "real world pin weight" percentages for Montana HC 5ers, and share trailer weights loaded and the resulting pin weights. Thanks in advance! Let's see what happens.
Oh, I will be towing with a 2018 RAM 3500, 6.7 Diesel, Laramie CC, SRW. All the numbers fit fine, except the pin weight vs the available payload. Pretty close on those...Thanks again!

I would be hesitant, but that's me. I have a 2019 Ram 3500 CC Laramie 6.4 4.10. The payload should be more than yours. I am buying a HC 331 RL with similar numbers to what you are posting and I'm not in the "comfortable zone". With a diesel I'm not sure you can get there. I see you are trying to figure "running light" which is always a bad idea. Look at the gvw, figure 20% of the pin plus 10% safety cushion; that will give you some leeway. I'm not a full timer either and don't carry 1500 in my trailer....but I certainly do if I combine what's in the bed of the truck plus what's in the trailer. Don't "look" for the "rosy" numbers but rather the "oh crap" numbers and adjust accordingly....especially since you haven't made the purchase.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:01 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
I don’t know what a “dry pin weight is”. We never had it weighed before we loaded it. The trailer manufacturer’s recommended tongue weight is for the trailers GVWR. If you work real hard when balance your cargo loads you can attain that recommendation. However, fivers are much harder to get an even balance because of all the cargo space forward of the axles. Our trailer had a 2100# manufacturer recommended tongue weight that was about 15%, a ball park figure. To keep our actual tongue weight at or below 2700# we had to carry our books, shoes and seasonal clothing in storage areas aft of the axles. The area for our optional washer/dryer was just forward of the forward axle. Almost all newer Keystone fivers W/D options are above the trailer’s pin making it more difficult to balance cargo loads.

When it comes to balancing your cargo loads you’re going to find it’s a hands on task that will require numerous trips to the scales to work-out.

Remember, it’s a fulcrum and simple math will help work it out.

https://www.keystoneforums.com/forum...1&d=1581909868
CW, the pin weight listed in 5th wheel specs are dry weights, they only go up from there. Our 32’ 12,500# 5er runs 2,700# pin, which is 22%, about average, runn as low as 15% can lead to a lot of chucking.
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Old 02-16-2020, 08:33 PM   #7
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My trailer lists a pin weight and it is the weight empty from the factory. I would never run my pin weight at that number. You need about 20% of the gross on the pin for a good handling balance. 15% IMHO is to light on the pin. You'll likely see more chucking and less stable handling.
Trailers in general handle better with forward bias weight up to of course overloading the tv, which you don't want to do.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:23 AM   #8
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Our first fifth wheel was a Cougar. Dry weights were listed at 9995 and 2200. The actual ready to camp weights were 12000 and 2580 which equals 21.5%. Our current Grand Design dry weights were listed at 13300 and 2700 in the brochure but came from the factory at 13850. Ready to camp weight is 16000 and 3520 which equals 22% I suppose you could keep your cargo at 1500, we are not full time and seem to average more like +/-2000. Keystone lists your dry weight at 11000. If you add 2000 and use 22% you're at 2860. You'll find the majority of the weight is carried by the rear axle. The front axle will probably only go up 100 lbs max. Keep in mind every trip will vary slightly. Sometimes I have more fresh water, firewood, or maybe portable generators.
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Old 02-17-2020, 02:34 AM   #9
CWtheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
CW, the pin weight listed in 5th wheel specs are dry weights, they only go up from there. Our 32’ 12,500# 5er runs 2,700# pin, which is 22%, about average, run as low as 15% can lead to a lot of chucking.
FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2 - On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.
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Old 02-17-2020, 05:47 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
CW, the pin weight listed in 5th wheel specs are dry weights, they only go up from there. Our 32’ 12,500# 5er runs 2,700# pin, which is 22%, about average, runn as low as 15% can lead to a lot of chucking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWtheMan View Post
FMVSS 571.120 paragraph S10.2 - On RV trailers, the sum of the GAWRs of all axles on the vehicle plus the vehicle manufacturer's recommended tongue weight must not be less than the GVWR. If tongue weight is specified as a range, the minimum value must be used.
What that section address that at what should be the Minimum pin weight the Axles and tires need to have the capacity to carry the remainder of the GVWR. It isn't a expected pin at GVWR.

Let's look at the OPs 5er

Key specifications - 294RL FIFTH WHEEL

Shipping Weight 11,035
Carrying Capacity 3,265
Hitch 2,300
Length 34' 0"
Height 13' 4"

With a 2,300# dry pin and 11,035# Dry weight is 21% a normal pin weight percentage.
To me at GVWR of 14,300# one would expect a pin weight of at least 3,000#, it is not going to remain at 2,300#.
If you assume the 2,300# pin is expected at GVWR then it would be 16% which is too lite to pull smoothly.
We have a pin weight advantage with our 2005 Copper Canyon as it is rear kitchen, but even with that we have a 2,700# pin at a total 5er weight of 12,500# is 21.6%, likely due to the small basement in our unit also.
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:00 AM   #11
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I have the same TV as the OP except mine is a Tradesman. My 5er GVWR is 1300 lbs. less. Below are the numbers from a recent trip with the pin weight. I put "everything" I thought I would need in the trailer (also not a full timer) and still had around 600 lbs. of available cargo. If the OP does not hit max on the cargo in the trailer he should be fine. Hope the numbers help.
I will add a different problem. While recently camped the fifth wheel trailer across from my site was a 36 ft. Solitude (why do I always see the word "slideout" when I read that?) anyway,talking to the owner he said that he was full timing adding he weighed the trailer and was a couple hundred pounds overweight but then he showed me the storage space (in the pass through and rear compartments) he had available. He had almost nothing in either compartment. He had removed the "slide tray" from the rear compartment (yes,that's how big it was) to loose about 100 lbs. he figured he could probably load up on paper towels and toilet paper to fill the void in storage. Evidently the trailer was built on 14.5K rated axles but is capable of a 16.5K load. Huhh? About $6000 to make it right (his estimate). Why would they build a trailer with so much storage that can't haul any cargo?
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TRUCK (With full fuel and all equipment/cargo & passengers)
2018 RAM 3500 4x4 CC SB SRW 3.42
Aisin Trans HO CTD/ 5K Air Lift bags
16K Curt Slider Hitch / Door Sticker payload:3822

GVWR: 11700 Max
GAWR: Front 6000 Max Rear 7000 Max
GVWR: 25300 Max
Max Trailer: 17050 Max

TRAILER
2017 Keystone Laredo 350 FB (All tanks dry,full propane tanks,tools, equipment,clothes,some groceries ect...)
Dry Weight: 11230
Cargo Capacity: 1770 Max
GVWR: 13000 Max
Hitch: 2085

SCALE WEIGHTS
TV: (No trailer) Front 5100
Rear 3960= 9060

TV and 5er: Front: 5200
Rear: 6220= 11420
Subtract TV (No trailer) : 9060=2360-Pin Weight

Trailer Axel: 10020
Add Pin: 2360=12380 5er GCWR

GCWR 12380 – 11230 (Dry Trailer) = 1150 Cargo

GCWR: (Connected) Truck 11420 + 10020= 21440
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Old 02-17-2020, 07:51 AM   #12
CWtheMan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhagfo View Post
What that section address that at what should be the Minimum pin weight the Axles and tires need to have the capacity to carry the remainder of the GVWR. It isn't a expected pin at GVWR.

Let's look at the OPs 5er

Key specifications - 294RL FIFTH WHEEL

Shipping Weight 11,035
Carrying Capacity 3,265
Hitch 2,300
Length 34' 0"
Height 13' 4"

With a 2,300# dry pin and 11,035# Dry weight is 21% a normal pin weight percentage.
To me at GVWR of 14,300# one would expect a pin weight of at least 3,000#, it is not going to remain at 2,300#.
If you assume the 2,300# pin is expected at GVWR then it would be 16% which is too lite to pull smoothly.
We have a pin weight advantage with our 2005 Copper Canyon as it is rear kitchen, but even with that we have a 2,700# pin at a total 5er weight of 12,500# is 21.6%, likely due to the small basement in our unit also.
The vehicle manufacturer knows the tongue weight is going up when an owner puts their cargo in. It's the way trailers are built. The recommended tongue weight is for the full GVWR of the trailer. Their computer model levels out the cargo capacity, something we can't do. It protects the trailer manufacturer from giving false figures to the government.

Our Everest had a 14,100# GVWR. It's recommended tongue weight was 2,100# and it had 6000# Vehicle certified axles. When we first took it to the scales its GVW was 14,000# and the tongue weight was 3000#. That overloaded our truck so we started moving things around until we got the tongue weight down to 2700#. Take the 2700 off the GVW and the remainder takes the weight on the axles down to 11300#, well below their 12000# capacity. Add the 2700# to the axle load, 11300 and you get 14,000# of GVW. It was just where we wanted it so we could have a 100# for excess water weight, should we not be able to dump on station.
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Old 02-17-2020, 08:36 AM   #13
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I would be hesitant, but that's me. I have a 2019 Ram 3500 CC Laramie 6.4 4.10. The payload should be more than yours. I am buying a HC 331 RL with similar numbers to what you are posting and I'm not in the "comfortable zone". With a diesel I'm not sure you can get there. I see you are trying to figure "running light" which is always a bad idea. Look at the gvw, figure 20% of the pin plus 10% safety cushion; that will give you some leeway. I'm not a full timer either and don't carry 1500 in my trailer....but I certainly do if I combine what's in the bed of the truck plus what's in the trailer. Don't "look" for the "rosy" numbers but rather the "oh crap" numbers and adjust accordingly....especially since you haven't made the purchase.
Payloads are almost identical for the 6.4/6.7 SRW CC long bed 3500.

https://www.tfltruck.com/wp-content/...wing-chart.pdf
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Old 02-17-2020, 09:26 AM   #14
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don't over think this. your one ton will pull just fine.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:44 PM   #15
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I guess I don't understand the payload worry so much. I have a 2015 Ram 2500 CC with the 6.7. My payload is 2360 by the door sticker. Here is the thing. The front axle has a 6000lb rating. The back axle has a 6000 at the minimum rating. The back axle is the exact same as SRW 3500 which has a 7000 at the minimum rating. The only difference is the 2500 has coil springs and the 3500 has leaf. Also understand these same axles are rated up to 9750 in certain trims. The frames, trans, and engines (diesel) are the same. Now back to the axles. Your total axle rating is 12000 to 12500.. Since the front will not change much you have to know what's on the rear. I have a 2019 367BH that is 14100 loaded and has a loaded pin weight of 2840. I am 5740 on the rear loaded. Well within the limits. Tires and rims are your limiting factors. Little off topic but I am using an Anderson hitch for this and love it.
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Old 02-19-2020, 06:51 PM   #16
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Looks like you’ve already figured out that a tricked out 1500 will certainly do the same as a 3500. No problem! Now help me get my tongue out of my cheek....
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:18 PM   #17
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In my opinion too many people over think the process of pulling their trailer.


Your 2018 RAM 3500 will pull just fine. Enjoy the ride.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:18 PM   #18
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No I just understand axle weights and actually real world numbers. Maybe you can explain why a SRW 3500 with the same axle has a 1000 more, according to the factory, load rating than a 2500. I wish I could have found a 1500 with a 17500 tow rating. I would have saved myself a lot of money.
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:35 PM   #19
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I guess I don't understand the payload worry so much. I have a 2015 Ram 2500 CC with the 6.7. My payload is 2360 by the door sticker. Here is the thing. The front axle has a 6000lb rating. The back axle has a 6000 at the minimum rating. The back axle is the exact same as SRW 3500 which has a 7000 at the minimum rating. The only difference is the 2500 has coil springs and the 3500 has leaf. Also understand these same axles are rated up to 9750 in certain trims. The frames, trans, and engines (diesel) are the same. Now back to the axles. Your total axle rating is 12000 to 12500.. Since the front will not change much you have to know what's on the rear. I have a 2019 367BH that is 14100 loaded and has a loaded pin weight of 2840. I am 5740 on the rear loaded. Well within the limits. Tires and rims are your limiting factors. Little off topic but I am using an Anderson hitch for this and love it.
Sorry but you can't had the axles together to get the total. Doesn't work that way. My tires are rated for 4080 pounds each. So does that mean I can 16320 pounds? The chain is only as strong as the weakest link. Can't tell you why Dodge decided to cap it at 6000. Sorry , I know I'm being sarcastic and honestly I don't care if you pull it or not. but I do have a serious question. If you know the axle ratings so well then why didn't you just buy the 3500?
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Old 02-19-2020, 07:41 PM   #20
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Most folks understand the limits placed on a truck by the manufacturer...the door placard. It stops there. We can all add plastic bump stops, Monroe shocks, look at another truck's springs, envision "mine being like that"....the sticker IS what it is. It wasn't placed there as a suggestion...it says "MUST not exceed"...that seems pretty explicit to me. To some, not so much...sort of like the "one way sign" that says don't go this way...but then again....one can do what they want with whatever consequence that comes along. Trying to understand/interpret manufacturer design factors, and not have any understanding, then perpetuate your belief without validation from the manufacturer is misleading at best IMO.
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