Surge guard hardwired

[KRumm]

Originally Posted by SAE

"Great" need? _Use it once and you'll be happy(ier). Onan specifically speaks to this in several docs.

Why not just put the protection in the 'proper' location? It does not cost any more to do it correctly.
.

Can you provide a link from Onan saying that one should place the surge guard after it's generator

Also any generator that has a floating neutral will not work with most EMS surge protector and need to be McGyvered with a ground bonding plug

[chunker]

Originally Posted by SAE

Does your rig have a self contained AC generator? I thought you mentioned yes in one of your first post?


The proper way to do this is to install your current protection just prior to your AC load bus or buses. That means your protection device needs to be installed between the AC transfer switch (The usually automatic device selecting either shore power or generator power)And the AC load buses. To place your AC protection after the Shore Power cord attachment, but prior to the automatic switch in box is pointless if the switching box has moved you over to onboard generator AC current as that generator current is not regulated or protected by your safety device.

What threw all of us here is that you were having this device installed and according to your recent discovery posted here is that they are installing it but only protecting you while using shore power.

Have you looked into this? And why are they’d not they not also protecting you from voltage fluctuations from your generator source?

I am putting an EMS in the new trailer I am buying. It's ordered, not here yet, and last week was in paint. That new Raptor 356 is what's getting the new EMS. I'll install it. Somehow I got the discussion about what my current RV has, maybe because of a question of what brand it has. PI. I looked at the wiring diagrams for the motorhome and didn't see a transfer switch listed, but as I stated, not an electrician. Yes it has an inverter which has a lot of "customers. Many of the 120v circuits are on it, TV, fireplace, 2 120v circuits also with GFCI. Some 120 are direct from load center, heat pump, microwave. At any rate right now my leanings is to PI and down stream of the transfer switch. I'll be behind the basement which is where I SUSPECT it is is should be easy. I'll know more when it gets here and I open it up.

[JimJan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

If you have a PI EMS with the "data cable remote" then there is a switch on the remote to bypass the EMS function.

If you have a PI EMS without a remote (old style unit) there is an optional "bypass switch" that you can order for your EMS-LCHW30 or EMS-LCHW50.

https://www.progressiveindustries.ne...***-switch-kit

Thanks! I remember the reason for wanting it last year, one of the (2) 120 volt legs (50 amp) was low enough to shut down all incoming and the other leg was reasonable. wanted to use the good leg only (shut off other leg breakers) but could not. The 30 amp post outlet was on the low voltage leg.

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by KRumm

Can you provide a link from Onan saying that one should place the surge guard after it's generator

Also any generator that has a floating neutral will not work with most EMS surge protector and need to be McGyvered with a ground bonding plug

I'm with Krumm on this...if the EMS needs to be downstream of the on-board generator, then thousands of us who use a pedestal plug-in EMS are "not correctly wired" to the "best place". The whole purpose of the EMS is to protect the trailer equipment from issues with shore power. The on-board generator has its own breakers (current control) and I don't think will operate in a "low voltage" condition. There's probably not anything wrong with placing the EMS downstream of the generator, but I sure don't see any specific need to go out-of-the-way to do this, or to say that is the "best way."

Maybe I'm missing something...?

[CedarCreekWoody]

Originally Posted by KRumm

Is there really a great need to protect oneself from one's own generator?... A standard pedestal plug surge guard (which accounts for the majority of surge guards sold) offers no protection from built in generator with transfer switch... Ihave never seen a forum post where someone said their generator fried their electrics?...

While a surge is not as great a concern on generator power low voltage or improper frequency can be.

[SAE]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

While a surge is not as great a concern on generator power low voltage or improper frequency can be.

Exactly! And to place after the transfer switch cost no more!

[SAE]

Originally Posted by KRumm

Is there really a great need to protect oneself from one's own generator?... A standard pedestal plug surge guard (which accounts for the majority of surge guards sold) offers no protection from built in generator with transfer switch... Ihave never seen a forum post where someone said their generator fried their electrics?...

Anytime a genset starts or stops it is not operating "at speed", therefore voltage and cycles will flux wildly. What often saves the day is that there is also shore power plugged in (first) and the auto transfer to a starting genset will (hopefully) not occur until the genset is on speed. Likewise, should a genset in the shutdown mode be sensed by the auto-transfer, shore power will (again hopefully) come online in short order and before the genset output gets too whacked out.


Yes, others have reported faulty genset protections/controls.


In order to assure proper GFI functionality (and other reasons), and as mentioned here by another, the difference between ground and neutral needs to be understood. In short, a jumper must be installed on the genset side of the autotransfer. Simple to do.



Here is a description and pic from another source:

The generator side of the transfer switch or the generator should have the neutral and ground connected together. They should not be connected together in the house side of the transfer switch or the shore cord side of the transfer switch.

The reasoning behind that is that the generator is a complete bonded system. The shore side is bonded at or near the power post. If you disturb that pattern you lose the ability to sense an open ground.

AND

https://98fc35b2-8b52-49c0-9df1-3310...164c8e591e.pdf


the mfg gives complete authorization and instructions on 'after the transfer box' installations. See page 5 - for text, 10, 11 for diagrams

[SAE]

Originally Posted by KRumm

Can you provide a link from Onan saying that one should place the surge guard after it's generator

Also any generator that has a floating neutral will not work with most EMS surge protector and need to be McGyvered with a ground bonding plug

I don't think that I ever stated that Onan said anything about surge. What I mentioned is that ONAN "speaks" , they specifically recognizes a variety of faults that their machine can (and does) produce.


Here's a partial:

[LewisB]

What “saves the day” with an on-board Onan generator is the generator test routines that ensure the generator frequency and voltage are within spec before bringing it online. If the generator fails, it produces fault codes and does not come online. This has nothing to do with whether or not an EMS has been installed either upstream or downstream of the transfer switch.

Stating that the “proper” location for an EMS (post number #20) is downstream of the transfer switch is not correct. It is actually listed as the second (alternative) location in the PI installation manuals. The EMS will work in either location and provide the protection intended by the manufacture. Find the best location for the EMS, follow the manufactures instructions, and use the system knowing that you are miles ahead of your neighbor who has not bothered to purchase and install an EMS.

[SAE]

Originally Posted by LewisB

What “saves the day” with an on-board Onan generator is the generator test routines that ensure the generator frequency and voltage are within spec before bringing it online. If the generator fails, it produces fault codes and does not come online. This has nothing to do with whether or not an EMS has been installed either upstream or downstream of the transfer switch.

Stating that the “proper” location for an EMS (post number #20) is downstream of the transfer switch is not correct. It is actually listed as the second (alternative) location in the PI installation manuals. The EMS will work in either location and provide the protection intended by the manufacture. Find the best location for the EMS, follow the manufactures instructions, and use the system knowing that you are miles ahead of your neighbor who has not bothered to purchase and install an EMS.

I would submit to you, Sir, and to the rest of the RV world, that which you brought up as being the “alternative position” is only alternative because 85% or more of all camping vehicles do not have an onboard generator, nor automatic switching panel.

If you don’t want to protect against the faults of a generator, Onan or otherwise; then don’t. use your common sense ...and do what’s correct for you.

When I spent $350 on a protection device, I will be sure do use it to its maximum potential.: Protecting me from the more common shore power issue as well as a potential erratic genny.

Good day!

[AbHDToyHauler]

I installed my PI unit behind the breaker /fuse panel in my toyhauler. My son is an electrician and he did it for me (younger hands seem to work better???) . I figured install just before breakers and then it protects our power from issues with generator and or Shore power. Have had it there for two years. Works awesome. Protected us several times when campground was at low voltage condition. Thought someone else blew the breaker until I realized it was the PI unit doing it's job long before the voltage /current condition blew breaker. Lucky for us have a big genset and it allowed us to function normally. My .02 cents.

[LHaven]

Just wanted to throw this out there – when I bought my Progressive hardwired EMS, I planned to install it right at the power cord entry. But after realizing that the bathroom sink area was probably a poor location for the remote display to be useful, it occurred to me that if I installed it immediately behind the breaker/fuse box, it was electrically in the identical location, a lot handier to monitor, in a drier location, and there was oodles of room behind the box to make an easy installation. If you did this, you would be protecting against anything that supplied power to your breaker box, including your generator.

[bobbecky]

I was fortunate that there is a large area behind the electric panel. These are photos of my installation. The EMS is attached to the wall where the light is shining on it.