TV numbers...

[Eric91Z]

Oh, I get so confused by all the numbers! So, the wife and I had been shopping travel trailers that we could pull with our '16 Chevy Traverse. Things became limited quickly and decided we would update the TV. Give the budget we are working with (both TV and travel trailer), we ended up getting a '16 Chevy Silverado 4x4 with 5.3L V8, tow package, trailer brake controller, 3.42 gears, etc...

Now, according to that setup and looking at the Chevrolet.com website, we "should" have the following:

1. Curb Weight: 5440
2. Max Payload: 1730
3. GVWR: 7200 pounds
4. Max conventional trailering: 9100
5. GCWR: 15,000
6. FAWR: 3950
7. RAWR: 4300 (with 3.42 gears)


Now, weighed the truck yesterday and with numbers off the door jamb sticker, I am seeing the following:

1. Curb weight (full tank of gas with myself and 11 year old daughter in truck): 5960
2. Max Payload (from sticker): 1653
3. GVWR (from sticker): 7200
4. FAWR: 3950
5. RAWR: 3950


So, why the differences between stickers on truck and what Chevrolet lists? Max Payload is 77 pounds less on the truck versus Chevrolet website. I did verify on the window sticker of the truck that it does have the 3.42 gears, so why not the 4300 pound rear axle rating, but instead standard 3950 RAWR? And I can't find on the truck or owner's manual the confirmation that it still has the 15,000 GCWR that it should have with 3.42 gears.

Looking at how it sits now, given the truck is 5960 with myself and daughter in it. Add my wife, step-daughter, and dog, we are around 6,290. That leaves roughly 810 pounds on payload capacity (GVWR - 6290). Which means, even if we could tow close to max tow rating, we would need to be well under that (which I want to be anyway), but need to keep the travel trailer hitch weight down once a WDH is put on there, too. Now, I know the WDH will transfer some of that weight to the front of truck and back on the trailer, but still close.

So, taking 15,000 - 6,290 leaves 8,710. Taking away "stuff" that would go on trailer, etc when traveling/camping, I would say max trailer weight of 7,000 or so to leave safety margin. Which means looking at UVW of trailer around 6,000. Which I am fine with as we have found some close to that or just over, but problem is, some of them have a bit higher hitch weight. Right around 800 pounds on some. Which basically means no bikes, etc in bed of truck. Basically have to load everything in the trailer to keep the payload of truck within safe margin.

Am I thinking right here or am I missing something?

[tommy_z]

I've had to learn everything from the ground up being new to travel trailers, so here's what I can tell you towing with a 1/2ton.

Website truck payload is stated for "base" models. Every option added to a vehicle reduces it. Same for axle rating. Your doorjam yellow sticker rules all, so go by it.

Your remaining payload math is off. 7200-6290 = 910. This is good, because your receiver weight rating (sticker on the hitch) is probably ~900 when used with a WD hitch.

A weight distribution system weighs about 100#, which comes right off that capacity, so you have ~800# left.

Your trailer weight estimates are about right. I'd shop for something closer to 6000 lbs, but watch the tongue weight (as you are). A dry tongue weight of 600 can go to 800 very quickly with propane, battery, and storage compartment things. You should have 10-15% of the overall trailer weight all said and done.

You will be within reasonable limits, and be ready to dial it all in with scale weights after you get it loaded.

[bsmith0404]

Tommy Z gave you good advice. I hate to say it now since you just bought the truck, but that is why I would never buy a 1/2 ton as a TV. You are very limited on trailer selection and any upgrading is pretty much out of the question. A 3/4 ton isn't that much more and opens a world of options. Good luck with whichever trailer you decide, enjoy it.

[Eric91Z]

We really like the Silverado a lot and it fit our ultimate budget. 3/4 ton would have been nice, but couple issues: 1) wouldn't fit in the garage, 2) similar equipped 2500HD was $10,000 more. That's quite a bit that could go towards a nice trailer...

We are planning on the BlueOx SwayPro WDH...

We are, like everyone, looking to get most room in a bunkhouse/bunk model possible that is in a weight range of safely, and enjoyably, towing with a 1/2 ton. Ones we are looking at are probably pushing a bit in length, but is pretty close on weight:

1. Bullet Premier 31BHPR
2. Bullet 308BHS

Yes, my math was off. While I had typed 7200 pounds on GCWR, for some reason I had 7100 in my head and what I put in the calculator! Whoops!

I do appreciate the input so far!

[JRTJH]

There is a "problem" for any "newbie" to towing. Unfortunately, all the manufacturers are "less than straightforward" in what they tell us about towing capabilities. Marketing offices for all the car companies use some "slight of hand" to make their product appear better than the competition and the engineering offices seldom give us any "black and white numbers" on which we can rely for "honest capability" in the products we buy.....

That being said (no don't completely give up quite yet), here's some examples of what I just stated:

In your example, the GVW is 7200 pounds, the truck is "listed" with a Max trailer weight of 9100 pounds and a GCWR of 15000 pounds. If you do some basic adding and subtracting, you'll find that 7200 + 9100 is 16300. So, it's impossible for your truck, when loaded to GVW to tow a 9000 pound trailer (and stay within the GCWR). In fact, at GVW, the maximum trailer weight is 7800 pounds (15000 - 7200 = 7800).

Essentially, what the "marketing specialtists" do is advertise an empty truck with a GCWR, then "forget" that anyone towing a trailer will not be towing with an empty truck. They use the "best world figures" that benefit their advertising agenda while forgetting that nobody will ever use their truck with the weights as they advertise them.

I think (my opinion) that all three of the truck manufacturers (five if you include Nissan and Toyota) employ "exaggerators" in their marketing departments and give them "permission" to ignore the "black and white numbers" in their advertising and marketing.

There are many examples of how one manufacturer will "one up" the competition, then get "one upped" when a competitor "creates a new class" in which their vehicle is rated "best in category".

It's all a "game to them" but you and I get left in the dust when it comes to trying to find a capable truck to tow a specific trailer. About the best advice I could offer is this:

1. Use the GVW of trailers you're considering
2. Calculate the "max" and "min" tongue weight as 10% and 15% of the trailer GVW. Expect your trailer tongue weight to fall "between those numbers" but I urge you not to just "figure the smallest and hope for the best" because many trailer/truck combinations will not tow "at their best" at any given percentage of total weight, but most will fall somewhere between 10 and 15 per cent.
3. Plan for the "worst case" and you will have less chance of being "burned" by the unexpected. Often it's the new owner who calculates the "best scenario" and finds that he estimated a "tad less than reality" and winds up with an overloaded truck, a trailer that's too large and a rig that performs "hap-hazardly" in some towing situations.

With your truck, I'd think you'll be "ok" with a trailer in the 6000-6500 pound GVW (not empty weight). Remember that the longer the trailer, the bigger side wall (sail area) you'll have "combating your stability" every time you get into a gusting crosswind and/or every time an 18 wheeler passes you causing you to get "blown sideways" by his air wake.

You'll get a number of people who will say they "pull the biggest trailer made" with the "smallest truck made" and "never have problems"..... Maybe they do, or maybe they simply don't know what they don't know.......... ???

As a novice, I urge you to take all the advice you get (mine included) and weigh it against your own experiences. Run the numbers, stay on the conservative end of your numbers, not the "excessive end" and remember that your family's safety as well as that of others who share the road with you is more important than "a bigger trailer with larger bunks"............

[Eric91Z]

I appreciate that input. Definitely something to look at further and figure out for sure! That GCWR will be the big one, especially once you factory in the hitch weight as part of payload.

One question I have though is figuring total trailer weight numbers and GCWR. So, let's say a 7000 lb trailer and 800 pound hitch weight (just using numbers here). So adding stuff up, the 800 pound hitch weight will pull from available payload number (7200 - "weight of truck and everything in/on it"). And 7000 trailer weight - 800 pound hitch weight means 6200 pounds being pulled (weight not on hitch). But ultimately, GCWR will be 6000 (random weight of truck not including hitch weight) + 7000 = 13000. Or, can say 6800 pounds (truck, including hitch weight) + 6200 pounds = 13,000. Either way you want to add it, the GCWR comes out the same. And ultimately, best way to figure everything is get loaded up how you "think" you want to travel, head to the scales, and get weighed...

[Ken / Claudia]

Eric your asking the right questions and researching. That puts you ahead of the game. Many buy what they like and disregard the facts. I do not have all the answers. But, want to share what Keystone says my trailers empty tongue wt is 540, as I recall. I did go to the scales as you should also do when you have truck and trailer all loaded up and get real weights. My real camping/loaded tongue wt is right at 900 lbs. for the listed trailer. Some tow with water on board and some do not. My wt. was with a full fresh tank full. Never checked the wt. with it empty.

[bsmith0404]

I'll try to explain the GCWR question without complicating things. First keep in mind that it is Gross Combined Weight RATING. That means the GVWR of both vehicles combined can not exceed 15,000. The rating has nothing to do with actual weights or your hitch or anything else. It's simply taking the figures from the 2 stickers and adding them together. Since your truck has a GVWR of 7,200 your trailer GVWR cannot exceed 7,8000

As you've already pointed out, the real challenge in your situation isn't the 7,800 lb trailer, it's available payload. Realistically, you are looking at a max trailer weight of about 6,500 lbs in order to stay in your payload numbers.

I see that you are in IA. Your truck will probably tow just about anything pretty well there (unless the winds have kicked up). If you ever plan any big trips out west such as Rushmore, Yellowstone, Estes Park, etc, you will want to stay under the max trailer weight by approximately 1,000 lbs anyway. That will help when you start towing through mountain passes.

On another note. Check the load rating on your tires. Your 1/2 ton would have come with a P tire which is great for ride quality, not so much for towing heavy loads with a lot of side sail area. Your rear axle weight rating of 3950 means that GM only has to have tires that add up to that so 1975 each. You didn't say how much actual weight you have on the real axle right now. I'm going to guess somewhere around 2500-2700. That still leaves quite a bit of room for your axle weight, more that your payload capability. I point this out because loading up a P tire vs an LT tire is a whole different animal. Many people who tow a large trailer with a P tire find that it is unstable with a lot of sidewall flex which creates a washout or tail wagging the dog feeling.

[Desert185]

Good explanation.

The budget vs payload dilemma can be painful and expensive if one weighs the budget limitation more than the payload requirement. As my dad reminded me on more than one occasion, "Buy a good quality tool or you'll end up buying it twice and spending more money and/or dealing with a broken tool when you need it." Good advice that certainly applies to TV's.

I still have his tools from when I was a little kid. Of course, Chinese crap and Harbor Freight didn't really exist back then.

[Eric91Z]

Thanks for all the good input! This really helps focus our search better.

Man, some of these dealerships are ready to push anything! "We sell these to people with 1/2 tons all the time...", and look and UVW of trailer is 7700 pounds, GVWR over 9000! Definitely shake my head when I hear that...

Right now our current favorites have GVWR of 7425, 7600, and 8000. I know, the 8000 pound rated one is really pushing it, especially worst case figure of 15% tongue weight...

I like the one that comes in at 7425, but DW doesn't think the double bunk setup gives enough room or personal space for the kids. She wants bunkhouse setup. But I try to tell her that the double bunk one is quite nice, be much easier to tow to more places, and is nice enough to get many years of use with and especially without kids, until we are ready to upgrade TV and probably go 5th wheel.


Sent from space on my com link.

[JRTJH]

Another consideration that's entirely unrelated to weight and towing capability is trailer length. I won't get into the wheelbase/trailer length debate, but rather address the availability of campsites for trailers longer than about 30-32feet. In many national parks, national forest campgrounds and most public camping facilities, the maximum length for "many" (not all) campsites is around the 30 foot mark. Trying to make a 35' trailer fit might be possible, but the angles to back it into the spot and turn the corners/curves within the campground without "sideswiping" a tree or roadside post makes it difficult to find places to camp in many of the more desirable tourist destinations. Granted, there are almost always commercial, private campgrounds available near those places you'd want to take your family, but usually they are double, triple or even more costly than the public facilities that are available for "smaller" rigs.

Just another consideration, maybe it's not even important to you with your plans for how to use your RV, but a limitation to at least be aware exists......

[bsmith0404]

To be honest with you, the first 2 are really pushing it, the last one is beyond pushing. Take it from someone who has towed an RV or car trailer for more than 100k miles.

[Tbos]

I have a 2014 Silverado with the same setup. I've upgraded to LT tires. I tow a Passport 2810BHS. Dry weight is about 5200 lbs. The truck does a good job until the winds pick up. That's why I upgraded the tires. Passport may have a model similar to the bullet that might weigh less. Good luck with your decision and let us know what you choose.

[SADLY]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

I'll try to explain the GCWR question without complicating things. First keep in mind that it is Gross Combined Weight RATING. That means the GVWR of both vehicles combined can not exceed 15,000. The rating has nothing to do with actual weights or your hitch or anything else. It's simply taking the figures from the 2 stickers and adding them together. Since your truck has a GVWR of 7,200 your trailer GVWR cannot exceed 7,8000.

Incorrect. GCWR as stated by manufacturers in regards to private passenger vehicles and recreational vehicles is all about actual weights.

In the above example, the drivetrain is rated by the manufacturer (warranty) for 15,000 gross weight. Caveat that you don't exceed other ratings (GVWR, GAWR, etc).

If you ~want~ to keep it simple for those that don't understand how all the ratings work together, the way you've explained it "dumbs it down" so understanding the ratings is not necessary.

[sourdough]

You are doing the right things and asking the right questions.

You are sorting weights etc. and being given a lot of good advise. I will just say that you need to upgrade to LT tires and I would install air bags as well. When you are loaded the P rated tires are too soft. They contribute to sway and bounce. The air bags will help alleviate that as well. In cross winds or rough roads a P rated tire does a very poor job, plus, I'm not sure how long they will last with a big load on them and being twisted and squashed all the time.

Good luck with your choice. You have enough truck to get a nice trailer and have a lot of fun. But, you will need to do what I did eventually....get a new truck!! I think you had posted that the 3/4 ton was 10k over the 1/2. That seems to be a pretty steep difference, but then again, I haven't priced one in a year and a half.

[CaptnJohn]

Originally Posted by sourdough

You are doing the right things and asking the right questions.

You are sorting weights etc. and being given a lot of good advise. I will just say that you need to upgrade to LT tires and I would install air bags as well. When you are loaded the P rated tires are too soft. They contribute to sway and bounce. The air bags will help alleviate that as well. In cross winds or rough roads a P rated tire does a very poor job, plus, I'm not sure how long they will last with a big load on them and being twisted and squashed all the time.

Good luck with your choice. You have enough truck to get a nice trailer and have a lot of fun. But, you will need to do what I did eventually....get a new truck!! I think you had posted that the 3/4 ton was 10k over the 1/2. That seems to be a pretty steep difference, but then again, I haven't priced one in a year and a half.

I have pulled a 7100# loaded TT with a F150 EB without a problem. Changed to LT tires only when the P wore down a bit and the rears wore in about 10K miles. I added airbags when suggested by the Ford dealer. The truck did not sag enough IMO to require them and I saw near zero improvement.
Agree an $8K - $10K seems way over the top unless going to a diesel engine over gas. I spent less than $7K from a 2015 F150 XLT to a 2016 F350 Lariat Ultimate with the 6.7 diesel.

[consitter]

Originally Posted by bsmith0404

Tommy Z gave you good advice. I hate to say it now since you just bought the truck, but that is why I would never buy a 1/2 ton as a TV. You are very limited on trailer selection and any upgrading is pretty much out of the question. A 3/4 ton isn't that much more and opens a world of options. Good luck with whichever trailer you decide, enjoy it.

I know I'm way late getting in on this conversation, but here goes...

Many RV dealerships are less than reputable as to what they will let you drive off with, no matter what the TV is. The first camper we were buying, the only vehicle we had that was close to being able to tow it was a CONVERSION VAN. And a half ton one at that. But the dealership was more than willing to set it up to tow. Thank God I had enough sense to say no and went out and bought a half ton pick up. And truthfully, it wasn't enough to pull what we brought (Keystone Cougar 32RET). It did okay, but it really needed a better suspension.

So two years later I traded it in on a Silverado 2500 gasser. Suspension was better, but the engine used way too much fuel when towing (6.6 mpg) at sustained highway speed. So enter this year, when I bought a Ford F-250 diesel. I believe this one will fit our needs, at least as long as we keep our bumper pull camper, and don't switch to a fiver.

Oh and introducing myself, I'm Scott--glad to meet everyone!

[GMcKenzie]

Also late to the conversation, but there's a couple questions I see didn't get answered.

For comparison, I have a 2015 Sierra crew cab. Mine is the Max Trailering package (NHT). This is separate from the tow package. This gives the 4,300 lb rear and 7,600 lb GVWR

You don't have the NHT. If you did, you would have the 4,300 lb rear axle, 3.73 gears and 7,600 GVWR. I think you are looking at wrong setup on the website. To get the 4,300 lb rear axle with 3.42 gears means you need to have the 8 spd tranny and the NHT.

The weights listed on the Chevy website are for a stripped down version of your truck. The real weights include the bells and whistles. My max payload per the website is ~2,200 lbs but my sticker is 2,015 (and I'm not looking at the year ).

Payload is the definite limiting factor in the trucks. My trailer (dry weight plus carrying capacity) weight is 8,200 lbs, and I am close to that with no water but everything else loaded up. With a tow rating of 10,800, you'd think I'd have lots of leeway, but going over a scale, all loaded up for 2 weeks holidays, my truck weighed in at 7,540 lbs. This is the absolute max for my truck. Having said that, I had no real issues going through Jasper/Banff this summer. Just the road between Jasper and Lake Louise has a lot of frost heaves but I will be adding air bags to help with the bouncing.

One thing about the tongue weight. Part of the function of any WHD (and I count the Blue Ox as a good one) is to transfer "some" of the weight back to the trailer. I've got a tongue weight of ~1,050 (as per a scale) but once all hooked up I only add about 850 lbs to the truck. The other ~200 is back on the trailer axles.

I'm still running the P tires. I do have them inflated pretty close to the sidewall ratings and not the sticker on the door. It does seem to help. I will get LT's one day. They are rated for more than the 2150 lbs each (I just don't remember the actual rating).

I didn't want another 3/4 ton as most of my driving is not towing. I've towed the same trailer with an 01 3/4 Duramax, and while I could go closer to the speed limits on the hills, I did not do much better for fuel economy and I got tired of the diesel when not towing. My daily commute is only a couple of miles each way and I was killing the diesel.

I don't know what the limits for a non-NHT truck are, but with the max trailering, 8,000 is about it for trailer weight.

[CWSWine]

Originally Posted by SADLY

Incorrect. GCWR as stated by manufacturers in regards to private passenger vehicles and recreational vehicles is all about actual weights.

In the above example, the drivetrain is rated by the manufacturer (warranty) for 15,000 gross weight. Caveat that you don't exceed other ratings (GVWR, GAWR, etc).

If you ~want~ to keep it simple for those that don't understand how all the ratings work together, the way you've explained it "dumbs it down" so understanding the ratings is not necessary.

The first half of this video show how to figure towing capacity using your GCWR and its put out by the RVSEF (RV Safety and Education Foundation) that been weight RV is 1993.
http://rvsafety.com/rv-education/mat...ks-to-trailers

[GMcKenzie]

There is something I've been thinking about that I think I might be confused on.

I've got the GM NHT package (Max trailering). So I have 1 7,600 Lb GVWR. I have a payload rating of 2,015 and a book trailer weight of 10,800.

As above, loaded up for 2 weeks my truck weighed at 7,540. Trailer weight of 8,200 lbs.

If I had a non-NHT truck (7,200 GVWR), loaded the same (aside from the trailer), my thinking is I would have to reduce my tongue weight by 400 lbs.

This 400 lbs less tongue weight, assuming 12.5% of the trailer weight on the tongue, would mean the trailer would have to weigh 3,200 lbs less.

So the max you could tow with a non-NHT truck would be 5,000 lbs. (assuming a similar load in the truck). Is that right or am I missing something?