Using propane in winter

[RFM]

In -14 F i left in january in Winter from Quebec to head Florida. My trip went well however I could not use the heat propane at the same time as my propane bbq when it was cold. The dealer told me I need to change my propan pipes and regulator for heavy duty ou winter needs to have bigger psi tubes for the propan demande.

Now can any one help with what kit model to buy, and how to install?

[GaryWT]

Never heard of a kit to upgrade. Have had the heat on, hot water, stove and grill without an issue but the coldest I have been out in is in the 20's.

Propane freezes in the winter when in use. Camping with the scouts in 10 degree weather you have to shake the propane every so often to keep it working or the flame on the stove gets to small to boil water.

[JRTJH]

Propane doesn't "freeze" until it reaches -305.68 degrees Fahrenheit, rather it stops "vaporizing" the colder it gets. It is still a liquid in the tank, but will not vaporize at about -45F. Here is a link to an explanation of the process: http://www.plumbingandhvac.ca/featur...&intDocID=2078

At the bottom of the first page is a chart that explains how rapidly propane will vaporize (change from a liquid to a gas), You'll notice that the available BTU's of gas decreases as the temperature drops.

As an example, in a 30 pound propane tank, you can get (let's guess) 60,000 BTU of gas vapor at 60F. As the temperature drops, you get less gas vapor through the regulator. At -45F vaporization stops (the propane is still liquid in the tank, but won't vaporize). If the vaporization drops to 6000 BTU at -15F, and you turn on one 6500 BTU stovetop burner, your grill will go out. Actually, the grill probably wouldn't light, or if it did, it wouldn't get hot enough to cook.

As you can see, if you're in (let's say) 15F weather, you may get enough gas vapor to run the furnace, but if you light the grill, the available gas "vapor" will drop so low that it won't support both the demand from the furnace and the grill, so both will "fizzle out".

Small one pound propane cylinders will "barely work" to operate a small heater in sub zero temps, my deer stand heater will only work if we keep the tank inside where the temperature is high enough for the propane in the tank to vaporize and flow through the regulator.

Keep in mind that any humidity in the tank or in the regulator could freeze and plug the regulator or the lines with ice, but that's a different problem.

Any propane tank will decrease in ability to vaporize propane the colder the temperature. At about -45F, even a home propane system will barely function.

The reason why "shaking the propane tank" helps increase the flow is that it warms the propane, increases the surface area and increases the vaporization, at least temporarily.

Getting a "heavy duty regulator" or changing out the lines may help if there's a water/humidity problem, but it won't help with vaporization in the tank. That's all directly dependent on the temperature and surface area of the gas inside the tank. That's one reason home "bulk propane tanks" are laid on their side rather than standing up, it increases the surface area of the liquid inside the tank and that increases the vaporization in colder temperatures.

ADDED: The easiest and probably best way to tackle this problem is to add an insulation or heating blanket to the propane tanks. Changing out the lines, gas pipes and regulator will have no effect on how the gas vaporizes in the tank. That is your "limiting factor" not the size of the gas pipes under the trailer.

[GaryWT]

It is a lot easier to say it freezes and you need to shake the tank to get it to work better.

[JRTJH]

Sort of like saying, "All snakes are poisonous" If it makes you run faster, I suppose it works, eh? LOL Besides it's pretty tough to run around the camper to shake a 30 pound propane tank when you're trying to turn the steaks on the grill.

I think the bottom line is that there's nothing wrong with the OP's propane system, but he "found" the limiting factor with any propane appliance when being used in a cold environment. Adding a "bigger regulator" or "bigger pipes" won't help the propane delivery if it can't get out of the bottle. Hopefully with some understanding of the system and how propane works, he'll be better enabled to "resist the dealer's promises" and keep his money in his pocket for better upgrades that will work.

[BirchyBoy]

Originally Posted by GaryWT

It is a lot easier to say it freezes and you need to shake the tank to get it to work better.

[Scttw]

Originally Posted by GaryWT

It is a lot easier to say it freezes and you need to shake the tank to get it to work better.

Not so much freezes .... The "Pressure" is lower at lower temps. IE if they heat up too much they will explode from TOO much pressure. In the cold it's the opposite.


You can buy a bottle warmer at Automotive speed shops - for NOS (Nitrous Oxide) which will help. They include wiring for 12 V. Just DON'T ever use it in warm weather.

[sourdough]

The first time this happened to me I just bought a heater tape for water lines and wrapped it around the tank with some insulation. Worked like a charm;....safe??

[Scttw]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The first time this happened to me I just bought a heater tape for water lines and wrapped it around the tank with some insulation. Worked like a charm;....safe??

You should be fine ...... again, only use in COLD temps.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The first time this happened to me I just bought a heater tape for water lines and wrapped it around the tank with some insulation. Worked like a charm;....safe??

I'm sure if you ask any "legal shark" they will find a reason to write a "caution, you may have a case" with almost anything, but I'm sure it's as safe as most anything. I use a KAT's magnetic heater. They come in different sizes, but I've found the 200 watt size will keep things flowing well. About an hour or two is all it takes to last through the night. I use it on the hydraulic reservoir on my tractor to keep the hydraulic fluid warm enough to flow and have used it on propane tanks occasionally. Since it's magnetic, just "clip" it on and plug it in.

http://www.amazon.com/Kats-1153-Hand...agnetic+Heater

KAT's also has "permanent" adhesive pads that probably would work as well or maybe even better, but for me, the ability to use it for multiple applications seems "cheaper"..... If I were looking for a permanent installation, I'd probably stick one of these pads to the propane tank rack, under the tank so it's not directly connected to the tank, but the heat rising would warm the tank and keep the propane above the "vaporization" temperature.

http://www.amazon.com/Kats-24025-Wat...BMFWC9ZG21ESKN

Keep in mind that none of these have a thermostat, they are either on or off, so if it were permanently mounted, you'd probably want to use a thermostatically controlled outlet plug.

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by sourdough

The first time this happened to me I just bought a heater tape for water lines and wrapped it around the tank with some insulation. Worked like a charm;....safe??

Yup, cold weather use only. I am a commercial roofer by trade. Every now and again we have to do torch down roofs in brutally cold weather. When you are trying to drag 50,000+ btu's out of a 100# tank your options are limited. You can put a torch on the tank (not recommended and OSHA frowns on it) or you can buy electric drum heaters. We use the ones for the 25 gallon drums and we are good down to around 10°F or so. I haven't run into this issue with my TT yet, but I am not setup for much below 30°F camping either.

Aaron

[GaryWT]

Generally I only shake the one pound bottles that I use with the scouts connected to a two burner stove. Tough cooking breakfast on those cold mornings. I guess I have shaken the 20 pound tanks once but it was free standing connected to a heater while we were working on my son's Eagle project in the middle of January a couple years back.

[RFM]

According to the dealer, we have two problems with propane.

The extreme cold will freeze the regulator and pipes, so they suggest a high psi new kit installed.

The other problem, is the demande of Propane, the fact that in winter I need to heat the trailer, use the stove and the bbq at the same time, the psi of my original regulator can not manage the demande, so by putting a high psi regulator and pipes it overcome that problem

What is the experiance of thouse who use in cold weater and lots of propane demande at the same tim?

[JRTJH]

I have used my propane system down to about -20F. I can tell you that unless you have moisture in the propane tanks, your regulator will not freeze. If you do have moisture in your tanks, no change of regulators will solve that problem, the only way to fix it is to purge the tanks, not change components. As for the vaporization of propane, as it gets colder, the liquid will not turn to gas in the tank, so it doesn't matter what size the regulator or the gas lines are, it can't get that far into the system if it can't get out of the bottle. And, the PSI is always ALWAYS the same 10.5" water column. There is no "higher pressure regulator to deliver propane to the appliances. If it were, all of your air/propane adjustments would be off and cause the appliances not to work.

As I said earlier and others have confirmed, a cold propane tank will not "vaporize" to produce enough gas to operate the appliances. Your problem (unless you have water in your propane tanks) will not be improved by installing a larger regulator or bigger diameter gas lines......

Go to a propane service/distributor, not the RV dealer and discuss the problem with them, They should lead you in the right direction.

[RFM]

Thanks good idea

So if all my Propane items are working all at same time, is there a solution for that?

[Festus2]

Originally Posted by RFM

Thanks good idea

So if all my Propane items are working all at same time, is there a solution for that?

What "solution" could you possibly be looking for? If all of your "items" are working at the same time, then you don't have any problems --- do you??

As suggested earlier, take your RV into a certified propane/gas installer or technician, get them to look at your system and follow their advice.

[greengiant]

I agree that some heat tape/insulation should help you out. Some additional thoughts: we had this issue at a tailgate in November. With a 20 lb tank and a portable propane space heater, the tank was getting cold/icing, not vaporizing enough. If we shook the gas, we'd get more heat for 5 minutes or so. We decided next year to bring 2 tanks and keep one in the camper to warm up and then rotate when flow got slow......so what I'm getting at: if you have 2 tanks on the TT, and changeover regulator, would you just be able to walk up and switch tanks when the flow decreases?

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by greengiant

I agree that some heat tape/insulation should help you out. Some additional thoughts: we had this issue at a tailgate in November. With a 20 lb tank and a portable propane space heater, the tank was getting cold/icing, not vaporizing enough. If we shook the gas, we'd get more heat for 5 minutes or so. We decided next year to bring 2 tanks and keep one in the camper to warm up and then rotate when flow got slow......so what I'm getting at: if you have 2 tanks on the TT, and changeover regulator, would you just be able to walk up and switch tanks when the flow decreases?

If I'm reading your question correctly, two propane tanks on the front of the trailer connected by a single regulator, could you just switch the regulator back and forth between the tanks to keep propane flowing? The short answer would be "no".....

The reason I say "no" is because both tanks would be the same temperature (unlike your example of keeping one tank in the trailer to warm up). Changing between the two tanks by switching the regulator would be about the same as "shaking the tanks" in that it would only provide the ability to use the gas that has vaporized (about 1 or maybe 2 cuft) which would only run a furnace for maybe 1 or 2 minutes before you'd be in the same situation with decreased vaporization.

Warming the tanks, either by adding some type of heat tape/heat strip and possibly insulating the tanks to maintain the heat is the only way to get the tanks to vaporize once the tank and the gas inside reach the ambient temperature. If that ambient temperature is below about -15F, the vaporization is critically decreased and any major appliance (water heater, furnace, oven, large grill) simply won't get enough gas to function. Once the tanks and the gas inside reach -45F, all gas flow stops because the propane will not vaporize at all.

Camping in those kinds of temperatures is probably impossible for many other reasons beside propane flow, but the effects of camping in 0F or slightly below 0F temps can create problems with operation of the furnace, hot water heater, cooking on the stove or using the oven, especially if more than one appliance is operating at the same time. Example: You're cooking supper, boiling water for spaghetti, the furnace kicks on, the stove burner "fizzles out" and the furnace kicks off and is only blowing cold air. Reason: The propane tanks are able to vaporize 6000 or 7000 BTU's of gas, the stove burner is a 5000 BTU burner, so it's operating properly, the furnace kicks on, demands 32000 BTU input of propane, can't get it, by then the stove burner has stopped working from lack of gas and now the furnace does as well......

Solution: Warm the propane tanks so they will continue to vaporize gas at a rate capable of sustaining the demand for BTU's for the appliances you intend to use. As a reference, at 60F, a 30 pound propane tank is capable of vaporizing about 100,000 BTU's of gas, at -15F that same tank can only vaporize about 7000 BTU's of gas. That's a significant difference in capability and should explain why a 18000 BTU grill won't operate.

[scott24]

Regulators can and will freeze when there's moisture in the hair. There's a rubber diaphragm in them that can freeze up. Simple logic to the propane not flowing in the cold. Cold air is heavy, affecting the expansion rate of the LP.

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

I have used my propane system down to about -20F. I can tell you that unless you have moisture in the propane tanks, your regulator will not freeze. If you do have moisture in your tanks, no change of regulators will solve that problem, the only way to fix it is to purge the tanks, not change components.

Originally Posted by scott24

Regulators can and will freeze when there's moisture in the hair. There's a rubber diaphragm in them that can freeze up. Simple logic to the propane not flowing in the cold. Cold air is heavy, affecting the expansion rate of the LP.

I identified the "moisture" inside propane tanks several comments ago. But a frozen regulator is a malfunction of the system, not a normal operating event. It's the normal operating limitation that causes LPG not to vaporize. You can't change those properties of LPG, only change the conditions surrounding the tank. Lack of propane at the appliance will occur without a malfunction of the system, and that is what needs to be considered.

You are correct, there is a rubber diaphragm in the regulator that covers a small port. Moisture (from improper handling of the tank or from not purging it properly when first put into service) will freeze and block that port rendering the rubber diaphragm inoperable. But that is only moisture INSIDE the tank, mixed with the liquefied propane, not moisture in the outside air. This is a "malfunction" not a "normal process" However, you are missing the mark by stating that this happens when there is moisture in the air. Simply put, the propane in the tanks, as it vaporizes, is in a closed system, not exposed to "the air" and the relative humidity of the outside environment has nothing to do with vaporization of and delivery of propane in that closed system. The only influence the relative humidity has on the propane system is the amount of condensation that will collect on the outside of the propane tanks as the gas vaporizes. The cooling effect of vaporization will "chill" the tanks at the level of the liquid propane and cause frost to form above that level.

Heavy, wet air outside of the propane system has no effect on how much or how fast the propane inside the closed system vaporizes. The only impact it has on the tanks is the amount of "insulating ice" that the humidity can form on the outside of the tanks. This ice can "insulate" the tank preventing the atmospheric "heat" from reaching the liquefied propane thereby causing it to not absorb heat required to vaporize. This is a normal process, not a malfunction of the LPG system. The process of vaporization is impacted by the surface area at the top of the liquefied propane in the tank and temperature of the liquefied propane in the tank.

The point, I believe, is that a normal, functional LPG system will fail in extremely cold temperatures. It is NOT a malfunction, it is a LIMITATION of all LPG systems and there's NOTHING TO FIX because NOTHING IS BROKEN.

There are a couple of very good articles related to this physics concept:

http://www.plumbingandhvac.ca/featur...2078&pageNum=1

http://www.plumbingandhvac.ca/featur...2078&pageNum=2

This article, in pdf format, is very technical, but explains the limitations of LPG in cold temperatures and how that vaporization of propane affects availability of gas to be burned in the appliances in great detail and is interesting reading for someone who is "anal enough to read through it all"... Yes, I did read every word......

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...88528373,d.aWw