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Old 05-16-2014, 07:41 PM   #1
KnotsUp
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Terrain vs Bullet

Hi All,

Brand new member, RV virgin and probably in over my head but thought this might be a good place to get advice from.

I'm trying to choose between the Bullet 310BHS and the Outback Terrain 332TRS OR it's lighter sister ship the 299TBH.

I have a 07 Chevy Avalanche that I would be towing with; 5.3L with 3.73 rear axle. Max tailer capacity (GVWR I think) is 7200lbs. The 332 weighs in at 7095lbs so a very narrow margin. I'd definitely get the weight distributing hitch so I suppose that puts the weight right at the max.

As far as the layout, design and capability, the 332 is the clear winner of the three. We intend to actually live (as in primary residence) in this for a solid 6-9 months while we build a new home. Crazy, I know. But the rear sliding bed and the solid door that divides it from the rest of the interior really has a privacy factor that we're after for the obvious reasons.

Second in line would be the 310 but the privacy factor is diminished. It does put check marks in all the rest of the boxes. We've been in one and overall it fits us well. The biggest downside to it is that it doesn't have a vaulted ceiling. If it did, I probably wouldn't be posting on here.

The best of both worlds would be the 299 and it's the lowest price. It also leaves a good 900lbs of extra towing capacity.

Our "mission" will only include on trip a year from South Carolina to Western NY where we'll spend a good month or more. Problem is, we've got to get over the Appalachians to get there. The route is I-26 to 77, then (usually) Rt 19 to I-79 and finally I-90. If I didn't have to do this trip through mountains, I'd just get the 332 but it's a big reason we're buying it too.

To the point: Does anyone have any experience towing with the Avalanche or 5.3L 1500 series Chevy and does it really "do" 7200lbs or is it pushing it? The dealer said I have a transmission cooler and tow package and that I can upgrade my cluster and get one with trans temp gauge.

Also, does anyone know if the Terrain or Bullet have any features that set them apart from one another? Better systems? The Terrain definitely seems to be "nicer" and higher end than the Bullet. Probably why it's heavier.

If you're still reading, many thanks!
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Old 05-16-2014, 10:16 PM   #2
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First of all, welcome to the forum. There is a wealth of information concerning towing, tow vehicles and RV's available for you. Recently there has been a large number of people asking the same questions as you about various brands of Keystone RV's and most have mentioned their tow vehicle and have some concerns about whether it is "big enough" or "can I tow" a specific RV.

If, in fact, your Avalanche is rated at 7200 lbs, you can't safely tow the Outback Terrain 332. Its shipping weight (empty weight) is 7095. Add 60 lbs of propane and one battery at 50 lbs and you're already at 5 pounds over your maximum and you've not added any personal equipment, clothing, food, dishes, pots and pans, recreational equipment, camping equipment, bedding, tools, water, entertainment/play items, and the list goes on and on......

I'd strongly urge you to look at RV's with a maximum "shipping weight" of 5,000 lbs or less if you plan to do any towing other than on "flat ground". As for the other two RV's you've mentioned, both of them will push your vehicle "right to the limit" or beyond.

As for upgrading your cluster to add a transmission temperature gauge, there are cheaper alternatives, but that should be far down the list. The first on your agenda should be to find an RV that meets your family's needs, is light enough for you to tow safely and that stays within your budget.

As for "quality" and "value for price" Keystone builds some of the most competitive RV's in the industry, that's why they are the nation's largest RV manufacturer. Sure, there are issues with some RV's that come off the line, and that's simply the nature of any assembly line product. But overall, in our last survey on this forum, 91% of owners said they would buy another Keystone RV.

This is just my opinion, but I think that if you've got your "heart set" on the Outback 332, you really need to upgrade your tow vehicle to at least a HD half ton or probably even a 3/4 ton truck. Your Avalanche isn't up to the task of towing an RV with a GVW of 9100 lbs. By the time you get it loaded (even lightly) with some equipment and put your family in the Avalanche, hitch the trailer and head out, you'll be over the GVW of the Avalanche and towing far more than the 7200 lbs you say it's rated to tow. That rig just won't be "do-able"
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Old 05-17-2014, 03:14 AM   #3
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Thanks for the quick reply JRTJH! My gut has been telling me (and so did the sales guy at Camping World) that I needed to leave a good buffer between the max and actual. I assumed, maybe incorrectly, that has something to do with the fact that he had a 310 in stock and no Terrains.

My intent would be under no circumstances to exceed the gross weight rating so if that means I carry nothing in the RV, that's fine. I can buy everything I would need once reaching the destination and leave that stuff with family for the next year. I did a "weight and balance" on the 310 and according to the owners manual regardless of the RV, I'd still have 400+ of payload available in the truck itself for miscellaneous equipment.

I guess if it's boiled all off, the real question is if GCWR's and GVWR's are overly cautious / conservative numbers or if they are pushed to the absolute max by GM to appeal to a buyer. I am a pilot and routinely load aircraft to the absolutely max gross takeoff weight (and once in a while slightly exceed it but shhhhh) and do it with full confidence that the aircraft can handle it. I do this because it has been rigorously tested and has big margins for capacity that are mandated by the FAA.

At any rate, unless anyone else has specific experience towing with an Avalanche that feels comfortable going right up to that max, I'd say the decision to go with the 310 or possibly the 299 just got really easy. I don't know how feasible it would be but I suppose I could rent a higher capacity tow vehicle for this trip too.

JRTJH, I assume you feel that the 310 at 5965lbs is at least in the cards? If, if, if... Of course.
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Old 05-17-2014, 06:01 AM   #4
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You're hoping that the ratings given to the truck by the manufacturer are "thoroughly tested and conservative" ??? Is this the same GM that just got fined 35 million for covering up safety defects? I'd not want to put any money on hoping they "under-rated" the capabilities of any vehicle. They are in the business of selling vehicles and if Ford/Chrysler are producing a vehicle capable of towing 7200 lbs, my guess is that GM will also produce a vehicle in that towing range. If they refuse to spend $0.60 to upgrade an ignition switch, I'm not so sure they would spend hundreds per vehicle to upgrade the towing capability of a truck so it remains competitive with the competetion..... Use your better judgement when taking things for face value.

As for the Bullet 310BHS, it weighs in at 5965 empty with a tongue weight of 645 lbs. When you add 60 lbs of propane and 50 lbs for a battery (located on the tongue) you're really looking at a trailer that weighs 6100 lbs with a tongue weight of around 755 lbs. Add the hitch at 150 lbs and you're looking at 900 lbs of "tongue weight". Also, it's 35'6" long. That's simply going to be "too much trailer" for a vehicle like the Avalanche. I'd say again that you need to stay in the "under 5000 lb range" for an RV and under 30'. The idea is to be able to control the RV behind the tow vehicle, not the RV controlling the truck !!! Generally speaking, 35 foot RV's are in the 3/4 ton or 1 ton range.

I'd also wonder how you're going to "buy all the supplies" at the destination every time you tow. Pots and pans, sheets, pillows, blankets get expensive when used "one time only"

You'd be better off with a good quality 25-27 ft trailer, a quality hitch and some "breathing room" in your GVW, GCWR, and maximum trailer load.

ADDED: Upon rereading your post, I am troubled by this statement: "My intent would be under no circumstances to exceed the gross weight rating so if that means I carry nothing in the RV, that's fine. I can buy everything I would need once reaching the destination and leave that stuff with family for the next year. I did a "weight and balance" on the 310 and according to the owners manual regardless of the RV, I'd still have 400+ of payload available in the truck itself for miscellaneous equipment"

If memory serves me correctly, your Avalanche has a payload of around 1600 lbs (GVWR minus actual vehicle weight). If you're adding roughly 900 lbs in RV tongue/hitch weight, that leaves about 700 lbs for passengers and cargo. You've got to include your family's weight, the dog, cat, etc plus all the cargo that goes into the truck. That means the cooler with drinks, toolbox, the kid's toys to keep them occupied, etc. Keep in mind that these figures don't include anything loaded in the RV.... I'd suggest you "load up" your Avalanche with everything (including people and pets) as you would be loaded for a trip, go to a certified scale (CAT has them at truck stops almost everywhere) and get an actual weight. Then subtract that weight from the GVWR sticker on the door so you have an "actual payload remaining" to work with. That's really the best way to know what you can add to your payload.
Post the actual GVW, GCWR, Tow rating and other information from the sticker on your driver's door jamb and I'm sure you'll get lots of information from members regarding their experiences with similar combinations.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:13 AM   #5
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Here is the "weight and balance" that I did:

Curb Weight 5700
GVWR 7000 <--- Of the Avalanche
Payload Capacity 1300 <--- Avalanche
Tongue Weight 645 <--- Of the 310BHS
Wife 110 <--- Top Secret
Kid 45
Dog A 65
Dog B 6
Available in Truck 429 <--- Resulting capacity in Truck
Trailer Capacity 7200
Trailer Empty Weight 5965
Remaining Capacity 1235 <--- Best case "Margin"

Correction to the statement you found troubling: ...according to the owners manual of the *Avalanche* not the RV.

A couple other thoughts; I would NOT be putting any propane in the tanks. Battery weight is news to me, I would have thought that included in the empty weight but good to know.

As far as the feasibility of buying the supplies while at the destination; in the grand scheme of things, we're talking about $100 worth of stuff if I go and buy it all; if I borrow it from family which I would be surrounded by, not a big deal. This wouldn't be a boon docking trip, just an alternative to invading family members homes.

As far as (GM) Government Motors goes: Great point about the starters. I'm under the possibly incorrect assumption that the DOT has some sort of oversight or testing requirements of the trailering capacities... sounds like I could be wrong there?

The length of the 310 certainly is a concern but it's one that I've never been able to substantially say is a bad idea. With the anti-sway hitch (uh-muh-jiggy) I felt that I was a bit more safe but do seriously intend to take this bad boy for a test drive before I buy it and see. It's another reason I became a member on here. While I'd prefer someone just tell me what I want to hear (kidding), I'm here to learn more about this stuff and greatly value your input.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:17 AM   #6
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Here's a screenshot from the owners manual:
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:43 AM   #7
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Pretty much I agree with everything John said, you're at least pushing the limits, if not in the end exceeding them with your current tow vehicle. Do people do this? All the time. Do they get away with it? Most of the time. Does insurance cover it when you have an accident? Not very likely...... Is it safe? That's sort of subjective but in the end NO.

Do you intend on keeping the TT after you build your house?

If so, upgrade your tow vehicle. Or buy a smaller TT

If not, look into buying the TT in the area where you're building the house and have the dealership put it where you want it.

Just some random thoughts here:

Surprised at the advice the Camping World guy gave you. He was correct for a change.

Wind and going down a hill are probably the two biggest issues your TV will face in towing, Being light duty, controlling that much weigh/length in a windy area or having it chase you down a steep grade will sometimes make one very nervous.

You say that you're a newbie. And that you can "load light" for the trip. Over time one forgets that and slowly starts putting more "stuff" in the camper and TV. In my experience (probably 30 years of RV ownership, TT's, one fiver, two motor homes, and boats) It's amazing what ends up in the camper .

You state that "under no circumstances will you exceed" the ratings. But then go on to say that "(and once in a while slightly exceed it but shhhhh)" .

Your dilemma has been faced by almost every RV'r out there at some time. You want the most space/convenience you can get. Unfortunately that means that bigger is heavier . There's no way around it. I hope you solve your issues to you and your family's satisfaction while being safe. That's the key.

Good luck,
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Old 05-17-2014, 08:00 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by KnotsUp View Post
With the anti-sway hitch (uh-muh-jiggy) I felt that I was a bit more safe but do seriously intend to take this bad boy for a test drive before I buy it and see. .
First, I doubt if a dealership would allow you to take "this bad boy for a test drive" before you buy it. Secondly, even if they allowed you to do it, I'm not sure what that would accomplish other than the fact that, when finished "testing", you might convince yourself that "my Avalanche towed it just fine".

Perhaps I am misunderstanding your comments about not putting a single thing in the RV when you are towing. You mentioned that you planned to live it in for an extended period of time so I can see that, when you get to your destination, then you can stock it with all of the supplies. However, if you plan on using it at some point as a "travelling RV", you will have to add the weight of the long list of supplies and equipment when you do your calculations. If that is the case, then why not begin your calculations with a tow vehicle and RV that is loaded with all the stuff that you would normally take with you?

As JRTJH suggested to you, until you take your gassed up Avalanche to a weigh scale with dogs, wife, child and anything else you would throw in the there (bikes, ...whatever) and get some "real world" numbers, you will not get an accurate assessment of your towing situation.

I am wondering if taking your Avalanche to a weigh scale and obtaining an accurate measured weight would be similar to an airline (or ??) requiring its passengers to have their baggage weighed. Is this not done, in part, to ensure that the plane is not over-loaded and safe to fly? But I digress.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:06 PM   #9
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I do greatly appreciate the feedback guys.

So we're clear, there are two missions for this TT. Mission one is to live in it with the crew mentioned for a period of 6-9 months. So bigger is better and more privacy within is also highly desired. Weight does not matter AT ALL for this. Dealership can drop it or, I can take it to the max and drive 20 miles from the dealership late at night when nobody but me is on the roads and the weather is perfect. There are no hills here.

Mission two is to be able to take this one trip per year to Upstate New York using the Avalanche as my TV. Trading that in for a 2500 series is not in the cards nor would it be financially sound. We would live in it there for a month or so (out of the total 6-9) and then drive back. It is this one mission that is forcing me to make decisions against what I (we) want and what travels better given the vehicle. My routing there would be modified somewhat in favor of less mountainous terrain but does include some serious hills. (There may be additional routing along the east coast that is much smoother but I haven't looked into it yet.)

The dealer already offered to go for a test drive with it. Not sure why that's that big of a deal...? Maybe they will drive it but if I've got a $500 deposit down and that's my only contingency, I'm sure it would happen. What would it accomplish? Probably nothing. Maybe I realize my truck just can't handle it...? No crystal ball but I'm assuming they're not big into returns either.

Again, I'm a newbie and don't know where I'd find a scale. I've seen them on the highway but never knew light vehicles could go on them. I assume that's what you're referring to? Would love to know the numbers.

BulletOwner1: You're taking two different references and combining them. One was referring to my exceeding the limits of my truck, the other my airplane. In aviation we routinely exceed the MGTOW of aircraft because we burn fuel along the taxi to takeoff and because we very much know the real world limitations of our aircraft. As long as the aircraft is within CG and within a couple hundred pounds, all is well. I avoid this 99.9% of the time or more. My big point here though is that I'm trying to relate a world I know well, to one I don't. Airplanes are tolerant of being overloaded (minimally) but it sounds like vehicles cannot be anywhere near their max or I may end up in a fiery inferno. Hence my seeking of advice from the people who've been there.

And yes, aircraft are weighed and so are the bags... but people aren't and neither are their carry ons. It's just assumed that you weigh 170lbs. Even the 250lb guy you're sitting next to.

So, let's boil it all off: It sounds like the 330 is out. Way out. The 299 even perhaps. But the 310 at 6000lbs? Should I just rent a house?

PS- Someone mentioned an alternative to upgrading the cluster and getting a trans temp gauge. That's $400 so I'm all ears if you care to share.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:35 PM   #10
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I will leave the "considerations" to you, but my opinion (we all have one) is that you will be in way over your head and will either "learn the hard way" that you've got to buy a bigger tow vehicle or you'll destroy something on the one you have and be forced to buy another one (hopefully better equipped to handle the load). Either way, once you buy a "too big" RV, you're stuck. You really need to realize that nobody here has anything to gain from your purchase. You ask for opinions based on experience, for me, after 40+ years of dragging these things around the countryside, I wouldn't tackle what you're trying to do.

As for the cluster and upgrading to get a temperature gauge, check into the AccuscanII. It plugs into the OBD port under your dash and has the capability on "most" vehicles built after 1999 of monitoring the temperature of the transmission fluid. Monitoring the fluid IN the transmission is much preferred to monitoring it in a line outside the transmission. That gives you a much more accurate view of what's going on inside the parts that need monitoring.... The AccuscanII is about $125-175 depending on where you buy it and what coupons you might find.
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Old 05-17-2014, 07:50 PM   #11
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John, when you say you "wouldn't tackle what I am trying to do" are you referring to the mission I described with a 6000lb TT? Or the heavy 7100lb one?
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Old 05-17-2014, 08:16 PM   #12
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Towing the TT on a brief test run around the block a couple of times and perhaps a short run down the highway and back can't really be considered a 'reliable test". Just as the 20 mile trip from the dealership to wherever over a flat stretch of road isn't that much better. Yes, the Avalanche can probably tow it without ending up as you say in a "fiery inferno". A little Mazda pickup truck could probably tow it too.

Scales can usually be found at most commercial major truck stops - Flying J - to name one. I'm not familiar enough with the "rules" at State weigh stations so I don't know if they will accept recreational RV's and the like. If you should, as recommended, take the Avalanche in for weighing, get it weighed as you would if you were going camping - or at least with passengers and other "stuff" in it that you would take with you going and returning from your "Mission 2" destination. It makes no sense to get it weighed without passengers, dogs, etc.

I'm not sure what, if anything, upgrading the cluster and a transmission temperature gauge will do to increase the towing capacity of your Avalanche. I too am all ears to hear the answer for that.

You asked about "renting a house" and perhaps that may not be such a bad idea if your thinking is "locked" on the Avalanche and "bigger" is better.

Again, I'd suggest getting the Avalanche weighed (not "empty"), bring us the measured results, and let's start from there. In the meantime, perhaps someone (not me) will come along and tell you that "I've got the same rig and have towed all over the country with no problems" or "You'll be just fine. Not to worry."
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Old 05-17-2014, 08:43 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by KnotsUp View Post
John, when you say you "wouldn't tackle what I am trying to do" are you referring to the mission I described with a 6000lb TT? Or the heavy 7100lb one?
I wouldn't tackle it with either,,,, A 6000 lb travel trailer (advertised shipping weight) will be a 7000-7500 lb travel trailer when equipped to travel. You say your child is 65 lbs, that would be about 6 or 7 years old ??? Having been there, you're not going to travel with him without his blanket, his favorite teddy bear, his books and crayons and in a year or two, his Nintendo, etc... Your "best intentions" of dragging an empty travel trailer to New York annually are just that, "best intentions". That little one won't leave home without his "favorites" and as he grows older (weighs more) he'll want to take along more (weighs more) and your wife will soon tire of buying new pots and pans, silverware and dishes every year (weighs more). Those "best intentions" are going to be rapidly changed with lifestyle growth. It seems as if you're planning this based on your situation remaining "as it is today"... kids grow, new ones join the family, they want to take friends along, won't leave home without their bike, etc....

What you "think" you can do is not realistic in the "realm of towing a travel trailer"

As for the transmission temp gauge/cluster, monitoring the temp will give you more knowledge of current conditions, but to echo the statement of Festus2, I'd like to know how that would increase any towing capability. I believe all it will do is give you a "heads up" that it's time to pull over, lift the hood and wait for things to cool down...... Again, not a way to travel...
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Old 06-05-2014, 03:37 AM   #14
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Knotsup- try looking at the bullet 281bhs, I tow that with a durango with the same tow capacity. It weighs 5100 but is 31 feet long and has awesome double bed bunks


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