That 10,000 lb limit on 3/4 ton TVs

[Rocketsled]

(as a followon to this thread)

After conferring with half the internet, I managed to get 10 links picked up on the Blue Ox WDH, threw the Kayak and 900 lbs of water in the trailer, filled the Truck's tank and went to Cat Scales.

Takeaways:
-Combo was transformed. I'm sure that's in no small part to the new tires on the trailer and the preload on the Hitch. Driving through the construction on I-25 between Denver and Monument was MUCH less stressful than it's been in the past.

-Cat Scales results:
Steer Axle: 4860 (limit: 5200)
Drive Axle: 5400 (6200)
Trailer Axle: 9960 (9500 UVW, 11,700 as loaded)
Gross Weight: 20220 (GCVWR 25,300)
Truck alone: 8500 (payload 1964, max tow 13,000)


Curiously enough, this matches well with the Better Weigh doodad, it registered right at 20k lbs. I then dropped the fresh water (106 gallons, 850 lbs) and it read 19,000 lbs. So for less than $100, it does a good job of showing relative weight and loading.

Now, crunching the numbers, facts and figures, all specs are well within all limits EXCEPT the sticker on the door for payload. It's overweight by 300 lbs.

Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped.

But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training.

It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered, and it's pretty much only an issue when packed to the gills. (I could see swapping out the water for my bike, which weighs nearly the same.) I'll be pulling some stuff out of the trailer that doesn't necessarily need to be there, some cast iron, the ladder, The big chunk of aluminum billet I rest the front pad on.

and 10 links gets a little bouncy when I drain the fresh tank.

[BrooksFam]

Good info as I'm interested in this system. I need to understand it better and what could affect its accuracy (if anything). Does TV suspension need to be stock, lift, air bags, tune, etc as it uses the VIN.

My OBD port already has one device plugged into it (power steps). Would a splitter/Y affect accuracy?

Links for good info?? I read some, but not enough I think.

[Rocketsled]

I have the better weigh and an OBD2 code reader, I just swap em out as I need them.

[KimNTerry]

If your GVWR on the federal safety certification is 10,000 then...
4860 Front + 5200 Rear = 10260 means you are 260 pounds over weight. If you are commercial and never get in an accident you could get fined or not be allowed to move until you are under 10K GROSS AND UNDER Trailer Gross. AFAIK, you can't register or pay more taxes for more than what the cert says. You can get a bigger truck.

If recreational and never get in an accident, you are pushing the bounds of controllability and safety. Suspension enhancements can help regarding controllability but not safety or ratings.

If you get in an accident, then "the Strongarm" or Mike Sawaya, or, or or, the multitude of Personal Injury Lawyers prevalent in Colorado may come after you "Get the picture"? Your insurance company will most likely pay what they are legally obligated to pay and then forget your name.

I recommend losing a few hundred pounds somehow. Move extras to the trailer or eliminate them. Passengers in a separate vehicle. I eliminated a bunch of tools I rarely or never use and an additional spare. I moved 25 pounds of tools and my compressor to the trailer. Now my truck has minimal tools, just me, the wife and our 20 pound dog.


This is just my 0.02 so take it however you want.

My next truck will be a 1 ton SRW (11,500 GVWR Not the 10K Package). I have to skip the dually as it won't fit in my garage and the HOA currently prohibits them unless garaged.

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

(Partial quote...)

...Which brings me to the point of this thread. Payload is the number the truck can carry, People, gear, trailer hitch weight, based on how the truck is equipped.

But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training.

It makes me think that the vehicle is safe, all things considered...

I don't understand how you can reach your stated conclusions and site the FHA "Law Enforcement Vehicle Identification Guide" as your authoritative reference. Yes, the GVWR and other items are used for identification and tax purposes. In some states, you CAN pay additional taxes and get approval for increased weight over your current class and into the next. However, this is a Tax issue, not a vehicle capability issue. Using your conclusions, a driver of a Class 1 vehicle could pay a whole lot more in taxes and tow as Class 8! Your saying with the same vehicle???

The "Payload" is the manufacturer's CERTIFICATION of what your specific vehicle is specifically designed to carry safely. That number has nothing to do with identification, taxes, etc. It's not a number arbitrarily picked off of a chart - it is the manufacturer's certification for your specific vehicle. If you exceed that number, you can be held liable. Worse yet, you are placing your vehicle, your trailer, and others at risk by operating outside of the designed and certified capabilities of the vehicle.

If "all specs are well within all limits EXCEPT the sticker on the door for payload", then all specs are NOT ok. You can't pick and choose when you want to adhere to the law. As others have suggested, you need to either lose some weight or get a truck with more payload capability. JMHO

[notanlines]

“But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training. “
Rocket, you find this info on Facebook I guess? You can’t come on a legitimate website forum and repeat this drivel. None of that is true.

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by KimNTerry

If your GVWR on the federal safety certification is 10,000 then...
4860 Front + 5200 Rear = 10260 means you are 260 pounds over weight.

The axle weight ratings are 5200 and 6200

Originally Posted by notanlines

“But that number is stated for commercial/tax/governmental purposes. reference

If your vehicle and load weighs more than that, and you're a professional driver that places you in the next weight class requiring you to carry additional insurance and training. “
Rocket, you find this info on Facebook I guess? You can’t come on a legitimate website forum and repeat this drivel. None of that is true.

Commerical Motor Vehicle Classification (from https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commer...cation-2221025 )

Light-Duty Trucks
The light-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 1, 2, and 3.

Class 1: This class of truck has a GVWR of 0–6,000 pounds or 0–2,722 kilograms.
Class 2: This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001–10,000 pounds or 2,722–4,536 kilograms.
Class 3: This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001–14,000 pounds or 4,536–6,350 kilograms.
Medium-Duty Trucks
The medium-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 4, 5, and 6.

Class 4: This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001–16,000 pounds or 6,351–7,257 kilograms....

They then go on to say:

If a vehicle has a GVWR of more than 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, including nonprofits, then it is subject to federal and state safety regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles. Vehicles over this weight are required to stop at state weigh and inspection stations, and drivers must follow regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations.

A driver does not need a CDL to operate vehicles in Class 1 through Class 6, but each one with a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the USDOT number.

I saw the original comment in a BigTruckBigRV video where they mention the Big Three all cap 3/4 ton at 10,000 regardless of actual vehicle capability, for the reasons I listed.


In responding to you, I found this: https://rvlifemag.com/load-capacity-of-3-4-ton-trucks/

Which backs me up.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

The axle weight ratings are 5200 and 6200





Commerical Motor Vehicle Classification (from https://www.thebalancesmb.com/commer...cation-2221025 )

Light-Duty Trucks
The light-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 1, 2, and 3.

Class 1: This class of truck has a GVWR of 0–6,000 pounds or 0–2,722 kilograms.
Class 2: This class of truck has a GVWR of 6,001–10,000 pounds or 2,722–4,536 kilograms.
Class 3: This class of truck has a GVWR of 10,001–14,000 pounds or 4,536–6,350 kilograms.
Medium-Duty Trucks
The medium-duty trucks category includes commercial truck classes 4, 5, and 6.

Class 4: This class of truck has a GVWR of 14,001–16,000 pounds or 6,351–7,257 kilograms....

They then go on to say:

If a vehicle has a GVWR of more than 10,001 pounds and is used for a business, including nonprofits, then it is subject to federal and state safety regulations for the safe operation of commercial motor vehicles. Vehicles over this weight are required to stop at state weigh and inspection stations, and drivers must follow regulations concerning hours of service and medical examinations.

A driver does not need a CDL to operate vehicles in Class 1 through Class 6, but each one with a GVWR over 10,001 pounds has to be identified with the name of the company and the USDOT number.

I saw the original comment in a BigTruckBigRV video where they mention the Big Three all cap 3/4 ton at 10,000 regardless of actual vehicle capability, for the reasons I listed.


In responding to you, I found this: https://rvlifemag.com/load-capacity-of-3-4-ton-trucks/

Which backs me up.

Actually in Texas (where BigTruckBigRV is based) you don't need a CDL to operate even a CLASS 8 Truck.. I held a Class A CDL for years and now hold a Class A non-CDL driver's license and to drive a Class 8 truck pulling an RV trailer all I'd need is an air-brake endorsement... which is an easy thing to get..

And F450's are capped at 14,000 GVWR

That BigTruckBigRV fellow is one smart fellow, but sometimes he gets stuff wrong...

If you really want to know... look up the applicable laws in the state in which you reside, because they all vary some from another..

[Rocketsled]

Point being: 10,000lbs and noncommercial - it's not a physical limitation of the truck, it's regulatory compliance issue.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

Point being: 10,000lbs and noncommercial - it's not a physical limitation of the truck, it's regulatory compliance issue.

No... it is a weight limit which the government requires the manufacturer to set upon the truck when it leaves the plant... You can argue against that till the cows come home.. but you'll lose every time..

[Rocketsled]

Originally Posted by Javi

No... it is a weight limit which the government requires the manufacturer to set upon the truck when it leaves the plant... You can argue against that till the cows come home.. but you'll lose every time..

It's not a physical safety issue. And from a governmental compliance issue, If I leave some of the cast iron at home, and move some weight aft of the axles, it's not remotely close to a road hazard.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

It's not a physical safety issue. And from a governmental compliance issue, If I leave some of the cast iron at home, and move some weight aft of the axles, it's not remotely close to a road hazard.

You do know that in a legal sense your opinion which is what the above statement is... has no validity whatsoever.

[KimNTerry]

The white sticker on your truck the "Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Certification" says GVWR 10,000 and has your axle ratings. Those axle ratings combined are greater than the GVWR, this allows for proportional loading AND provides the required load reserve capacity. GVWR is the Max allowable weight your truck can legally weigh with both axles combined and is established by the vehicle manufacturer.

I have busted GVWR before and my truck did not catch fire nor was Law enforcement notified when I went over. I have "gotten away with it" and not been involved in an accident. I also understand that if I violate weight ratings I'm on my own. If involved in an accident, the lawyers can/will feast and my insurance may/may not pay out.

Personally, I do my absolute best to stay below those ratings, they're not arbitrary to inconvenience me. They have those limits and ratings to ensure a safe loaded driving and towing experience.

If you feel good about being "slightly over" GVWR that's fine, drive safe, and have fun camping. Just so you know, it's on you if you knowingly exceed weight ratings and the worst case scenario occurs.

[Rocketsled]

At the very least it’s incumbent upon me to not drive with a full fresh tank and garage. This was an intentional worst case scenario test.

I can also see why people move to a Modern battery. Two big 6v batteries on the tongue add a sizable chunk of weight.

[kfxgreenie]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

It's not a physical safety issue. And from a governmental compliance issue, If I leave some of the cast iron at home, and move some weight aft of the axles, it's not remotely close to a road hazard.

Bingo.

You do know a lot of the forum members drive 5 MPH under the speed limit, at all times, even when not towing to maintain a safety factor to the government imposed laws. : whistling:

[Ken / Claudia]

Rocketsled, You did a lot of research , but faulty in some points.
I suggest you take time with a DOT employee and have them explain some of your ideas. Or read through their booklets. Many are not easy to understand even after being trained by them.
The comm/tax/governmental chart is made by national institute for safety reseach INC. not DOT. get your facts from DOT booklets. I have never seen those charts handed out or explained that way in any of my DOT classes.

Like any times some people cross the comm vehicle rules with non comm vehicle rules, it appears your using both. They are apples to oranges.

Bottom line any vehicle can be a comm vehicle, on the lighter side think of a common taxi. It was a passenger vehicle when built and now used to earn money thus a comm vehicle. DOT does not give a rap until style of truck used as a comm vehicle reaches 10,001 lbs. loaded or empty.

If the yellow payload sticker or federal VIN sticker said "This rating is for non commercial vehicles" or The rating is for commercial vehicles" than you would be right. They do not print that.
Print out a Ford document from Ford with a contact to verify your guess that the 10,000 lb weight rating is only placed on a truck to comply with tax reasoning.
BTY, NISR is a private not government company. They train cops on methods used to conduct crash investigations and reports. They have taught classes to many cops, including me on the subject. DOT is the final say, they make the laws and say how to enforce them.
Edit: Yes I am aware states also have they own laws in addition to DOT.

[sourdough]

These threads could, and would, be humorous if we didn't have so many folks new to towing/rving trying to figure out trucks, weights and the safe way to do things. When that is the case, as it certainly is now, these things need be set straight and the members are doing a great job.

There is an extremely easy way to look at these things; simple and accurate. Determine load, that determines the truck. The truck is determined by the placards placed inside the door. Payload = x? That's the payload. GVW = x? That's the total vehicle weight. Same goes for gawr and gcvwr. EXTREMELY simple.

Now, is that 10k limit a commercial limit? A misleading, tax related limit? I would challenge anyone anywhere to find that in their documentation on their vehicle. It is there to classify that vehicle weight wise. Once classified it is what it is and that is what you are buying knowingly. Got a 5,6,7,8k load? Buy that 10k gvw truck. Got a 10k - 12k load? Get that 14k truck. Nowhere will you find any exclusion that says "doesn't apply if you aren't commercial", "doesn't apply if you add air bags or etc. etc. etc.".

Those numbers are put there for you to know and abide by. I've seen any number of state regs that always say it is the owners responsibility to know and abide by them. They don't say anything about "if you agree", or "unless you think it's a different value". They say you must adhere to them period. And they don't ask your opinion.

The payload sticker is a federally mandated sticker placed on a vehicle by the manufacturer. It is placed to TELL you what that truck is and what it can do. Your load too big for that 10k gvw/xxx payload? Buy a bigger truck. They are everywhere - get the truck that fits the load - they all have a sticker inside the door that tells you their capabilities and it's your responsibility to find it. You don't make the truck TRY to fit the load by skirting limits, making up excuses or dreaming up reasons that don't exist.

In the end, the government mandates the stickers. The manufacturer determines what the vehicle is capable of and places the stickers. Everything is now placed on the shoulders of the consumer. It is their job to KNOW those numbers and ABIDE by them. There are countless reams of regs, laws and associated documents explaining end user requirements. Reading an article in Bubba Knows Trucks, or RedBook or USA Today won't cut the mustard if/when you have a situation where law enforcement gets involved and sifts through all the "who did whats and why". As for me, I'm not betting my way of life, or my life (or DWs) because I feel I need to disregard a federal sticker that says I "must not exceed" when there's a truck sitting out there in the lot that won't put me in that position.

[Rocketsled]

I think y'all are missing something kinda critical.

• It's over the payload limit.
  
• By an amount that's easily rectified.
  
• On a trailer that's loaded to its gills.
  
• And determined by testing.
  
• Because I cared enough to find out.

Do I sound like the guy that's 1000 lbs over without a WDH pulling a grade in a 1/2 truck? Because that's not how I'm trying to sound.

I have an engineering background. I have an automotive background. I'm looking at the various numbers involved and I specified the truck, after purchasing the trailer, to have a factor of safety.

Rearranging and removing some of the load will get the trailer within the legislated capabilities of the truck, which are well within the physical capabilities of the truck. If you don't think I'm going to do that, you haven't been paying attention.

But ask yourself:
All of the manufacturers use 10,000 lbs as the max GVWR, regardless of motor, bed length, engine, cab and initial curb weight.

Don't you think that's odd?

(FWIW, I think I got in trouble because I emptied the tank for the toy fuel station....hanging nearly 200 lbs of gas way out on the caboose end of the trailer would surely take an equivalent amount of weight off the hitch.)

[sourdough]

As far as the 10k gvw being "odd"...it's a government mandated, binding limit. It is there and is what it is. If I don't like it (because it will be there when I buy it) I can buy a truck with a different one. Sort of like - do I understand why some highways in FL straight as far as the eye can see will have a speed limit of 45 - no I don't. I do know however that the trooper sitting out there in those trees will surely take my money if I decide to whiz thru there at a TX speed of 75. It is what it is.

In your initial post you started off questioning the validity of the 10k gvw limits and talked about it for several posts. Then you did change the direction of the conversation to removing weights to eliminate the 260lbs. excess weight. THAT is the answer to your situation. Like you have mentioned, the removal of 260lbs., especially if you are carrying lots of liquids, shouldn't be difficult. At that point you would be within your weight specs. Realize removing 200lbs. from the "caboose" of the trailer won't transfer 200 lbs. off the tongue and that gasoline weighs 6.3lbs per gallon for calculation purposes.

You said you want to be within all the numbers and you are trying to get to that point; that's a good thing. Good luck on finding and removing that 260.
I also believe I will look into the better weigh if it is that accurate.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Rocketsled

I think y'all are missing something kinda critical.

• It's over the payload limit.
  
• By an amount that's easily rectified.
  
• On a trailer that's loaded to its gills.
  
• And determined by testing.
  
• Because I cared enough to find out.

Do I sound like the guy that's 1000 lbs over without a WDH pulling a grade in a 1/2 truck? Because that's not how I'm trying to sound.

I have an engineering background. I have an automotive background. I'm looking at the various numbers involved and I specified the truck, after purchasing the trailer, to have a factor of safety.

Rearranging and removing some of the load will get the trailer within the legislated capabilities of the truck, which are well within the physical capabilities of the truck. If you don't think I'm going to do that, you haven't been paying attention.

But ask yourself:
All of the manufacturers use 10,000 lbs as the max GVWR, regardless of motor, bed length, engine, cab and initial curb weight.

Don't you think that's odd?

(FWIW, I think I got in trouble because I emptied the tank for the toy fuel station....hanging nearly 200 lbs of gas way out on the caboose end of the trailer would surely take an equivalent amount of weight off the hitch.)

Frankly, the vibe (if you would) you give off is that you think you can do whatever you want and conventional wisdom or legality be damned.. If indeed you do have an engineering background and/or an automotive mechanical background I doubt that you'd feel that way.

Good luck in your endeavors, I feel that you might need it...