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Old 03-07-2016, 12:20 PM   #1
jwakeman
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Unhappy New trailer tale

At the Jan RV show in south Texas we decided we would order a 2016 3721RL.
Once it got into manufacturing, which had slip dates in start to build. . Followed with discovery of defects in front caps, which stopped production for a week plus while new caps were cast. Than a series of snow storms prevented Transport service from delivering the trailer to the RGV dealer.

The trailer arrived on 03/07 only problem is it was the wrong trailer. So we now wait another week to 10 days plus for the right trailer to be delivered, prepped and accepted by me.

NOW, how can the wrong trailer be allowed off the manufacture;s lot?
How can the delivery drive in 4 days of towing not see that the trailer does not match his paper work?

I sure hope this is not represented of the quality I will find once I get the trailer.
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Old 03-07-2016, 12:44 PM   #2
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I believe that anyone that buys an RV in this day and age has to realistically expect to make (or have the dealer make) a few repairs to a newly built unit. It's a sorry statement but that facts appear to show that a well designed unit is built buy a few workers with little pride in the job they do. I found stripped screws, bent frame supports, badly installed gas pipe, and poor installation of various systems and parts in my new 2013 Keystone Alpine. I was lucky in that all the basic systems worked and the unit was basically sound. I'm a "tinkerer" by nature so fixing these few items and having the dealer fix the rest under warrantee at seasons end worked for me. I can't stress the importance of a lengthy inspection before delivery. Still, some problems won't be discovered until you use the unit a few times. Park the unit in a RV park close to home and test everything, look at everything, go behind the panels and see what they might hide.


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Old 03-07-2016, 02:14 PM   #3
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Keystone manufactures trailers in Pendleton Oregon, we purchased our cougar in 2012, wife's sister has purchased a new Cougar trailer in each of the past three years, that gives us 4 units to compare quality of build. We have herd through the repair facility people that the manufacturing quality of Pendleton labor is superior to other locations. The materials used and methods I would assume come from Keystone. On our trailer we had screws work loose on the kitchen cabinets, they were put in correctly but short, I replaced with longer screws, the rest of the screws in all the other cabinets and doors were the same size but get less usage. Also replaced one of the pass through locks. Wife's sister's trailers had problems with the door locks and had them warranty replaced, other then those minor issues with materials we have found the trailer to perform as advertised. The bottom line is the parts and components seem to all come from the same suppliers across many brands of trailers, but the quality of workmanship in installing varies from place to place.
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Old 03-07-2016, 04:16 PM   #4
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Scout, in your statement "a well designed unit is built buy a few workers with little pride in the job they do" do you think you might have been a little harsh on the assembly crew? The Ford plant in Michigan puts out 1500 F-150's A DAY! Ford has a better chance to control assembly and the results. You as a "tinkerer" think that all these RV systems should be assembled impeccably and it should work flawlessly for a minimum of 10 years.....yes I am having a little fun at your expense. There is a lot to putting together 10,000 pounds of trim and systems. A few things are bound to be not to your satisfaction.
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:16 PM   #5
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In the runup to our purchase in May of 2013, we spent nearly two years looking in Arizona, California and Colorado. We saw some we liked and some we did not like. An Open Range we saw in Colorado was almost coming apart with much of the interior trim on the floor, the slide floors mismatched to the solid floor and drawers that would not close. When we finally bought, it was from an Indiana dealer and our Montana was built there. Other than the sliding closet doors in the bedroom, which is a design flaw rather than an assembly problem, we have had zero problems with this rig that could be attributed to the assembly process. It has been to the East Coast and New England three times, California, Colorado, New Mexico and all points in between. Sure, we have to tighten a few screws occasionally but all in all it has been relatively trouble-free.
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Old 03-07-2016, 05:47 PM   #6
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jwakeman,
I wouldn't fret too much. The bright side is that they've already found some issues and are taking care of them. It's a delay on your side, but you're not burning warranty.

I think deliveries are probably by "independent" and likely they'll haul whatever gets hooked up...
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Old 03-10-2016, 07:49 AM   #7
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Sort of confused by the responses?

I read Jwakeman's post, and there are 2 issues he mentions.

First, he mentions the assembly plant shutdown production of their unit because of problems with the front cap, and they had to get new ones. Personally, I would take this as good news, the assembly plant was looking at problems with it's components during build, and versus shipping out a unit with a known problem, they held up to make things right. When we often read about lack of care and quality control during construction, and in this case it sounds like Keystone did the right thing, saying we aren't building something we know will be a problem. Yes, it probably did delay shipment of the unit, but without a doubt, Jwakeman and everyone would prefer the good cap.

Then delivery of the unit by the transporter. I agree someone screwed up there, but the reality is I doubt it was the transporter. I've read some posts from transports and about the transport business, and only know what those people have said. Regardless, the transporter was probably handed some papers, said there's the unit you need to take, and here is the paperwork. They hooked up, the shipping manager likely confirmed the unit on the paperwork, and the transporter drove on his way. Everything was probably checked and validated before the transporter was allowed to leave. As we all know, the RV Serial Number is usually written in large numbers somewhere on the front of the unit - mine is still on the pinbox, much more permanent than I like! In my mind, it is hard to believe the transporter hooked up the wrong Serial Number unit, it is more likely the wrong number was put on to the paperwork. Unfortunately, if the transporter did somehow get the wrong unit, he likely has to absorb the cost of hauling the wrong one there, then taking it back, and then hauling the right one to the dealer. Not a small cost, plus the 8 lost days.

I don't see anywhere that Jwakeman is complaining about the build quality or problems with the 'right' unit? Yet is seems like several people have comments about poor quality and bad construction.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:08 AM   #8
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If it is like car transporters at a dealership it is repetition leads to blinders.

In 20 years I have seen 10 - 15 cars delivered to the wrong dealer.

The transport driver was told his load was in spot 20 and he went and hooked up to the trailer in spot 20. He probably got lazy and never checked the sheets to make sure it was right. He has probably picked up 20 or 30 and never had a problem why would there be one now.

I have gotten entire loads of cars to the wrong place before. Talk about a mad truck driver when you refuse a load.
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Old 03-10-2016, 08:29 AM   #9
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If you've ever been to the Keystone plant, you'll see literally "hundreds" maybe "thousands" of RV's sitting in transportation lots awaiting transport to dealerships. From what the OP posted, his trailer was "backed up by a couple of snowstorms" which would indicate even more than normal trailers behind those fences. There are a number of Keystone dealerships around the Des Moines area, and a good probability that this specific dealership had more than one trailer on order.

None of us know what "really happened behind that fence" but it's very likely that there were two or more trailers scheduled for delivery to his dealer, and the transporter selected the "one easiest to hitch" (which may not have been the one the dealer "who was 800 miles away" thought should be first). Likely, had there not been a production delay and the snowstorms, transportation would have had that "other trailer" already gone, but when things stack up, it's not always the "first in/first out"... rather, the one that's blocking the driveway has to go now !!!

When we bought out Cougar, the dealership had 4 trailers "ready for transport" in Indiana. They send their own driver down to bring them back and even with that "control of the situation" the dealership couldn't assure me whether my trailer would arrive on Monday, Tuesday or Wednesday, since they didn't know how they were parked in the transfer lot. It's likely that there wasn't a "mistake" in delivering the wrong trailer, but a "miscommunication" on which "Passport" (not by serial number) the driver picked up first.....

Then again, I've heard of (and experienced) a number of situations over the years where a dealership will get "backed up" and not wanting to accept responsibility for their scheduling problems, will tell customers that it's a "parts delivery problem", the factory sent the wrong part and we had to reorder" or "Fed Ex delivered the item to our "other location" and we have to go get it so it'll take a couple extra days".... Without knowing much more about what the OP experienced, what he was told and what "really happened", it's all speculation, even my post about what "may have happened".................
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Old 03-10-2016, 02:37 PM   #10
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The point I tried to make was that I'm sure the majority of the workers do good work. But when you install a screw and it doesn't tighten up (it strips), you should fix it, not let it go down the line.


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Old 03-10-2016, 03:27 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LZScout View Post
The point I tried to make was that I'm sure the majority of the workers do good work. But when you install a screw and it doesn't tighten up (it strips), you should fix it, not let it go down the line.
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If you've ever been someone's boss - or the boss of a bunch of people then you know that you have to incent for desired outcome. The lower the wage, the more important the incentive is. The higher the wage, the less it becomes a factor.

My understanding is that what is incented on most modern production lines is speed, not properly installed screws. I don't know that for a fact, so maybe someone with some actual experience can comment.

I'd love to hear that there is some after-the-fact penalty or at least metrics tracking on what line crew created what mess up and a closed loop means to address it.

I haven't run a multi-million dollar RV business, but I *bet* it works something like this:
1) Of construction defects that are not caught, only a fraction are claimed.
2) Of those that are claimed, only a subset of those claims that are caught within the first year need to be addressed.
3) Of those that are caught and need to be addressed, a reduced labor rate that is dictated, not negotiated, to the dealer is paid out.
4) Most claims are relatively low dollar
5) Most consumers will not or do not have the means to litigate on a construction defect, so the vast majority are closed at the decision of the factory.


As such, it's perhaps MORE cost effective to pay out on these claims than it is to make significant investments in quality and the methods necessary to trace back that quality.


Again, I know none of this.. Just theory.
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Old 03-10-2016, 05:21 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by dcg9381 View Post
If you've ever been someone's boss - or the boss of a bunch of people then you know that you have to incent for desired outcome. The lower the wage, the more important the incentive is. The higher the wage, the less it becomes a factor.

My understanding is that what is incented on most modern production lines is speed, not properly installed screws. I don't know that for a fact, so maybe someone with some actual experience can comment.

I'd love to hear that there is some after-the-fact penalty or at least metrics tracking on what line crew created what mess up and a closed loop means to address it.

I haven't run a multi-million dollar RV business, but I *bet* it works something like this:
1) Of construction defects that are not caught, only a fraction are claimed.
2) Of those that are claimed, only a subset of those claims that are caught within the first year need to be addressed.
3) Of those that are caught and need to be addressed, a reduced labor rate that is dictated, not negotiated, to the dealer is paid out.
4) Most claims are relatively low dollar
5) Most consumers will not or do not have the means to litigate on a construction defect, so the vast majority are closed at the decision of the factory.


As such, it's perhaps MORE cost effective to pay out on these claims than it is to make significant investments in quality and the methods necessary to trace back that quality.


Again, I know none of this.. Just theory.
Like you, I have very little experience (only several visits) with the RV manufacturers. I did have my own RV repair business in Denver during the early 70's, but military service was not compatible with keeping that business open after I transferred from Lowry AFB.

Like most any industry, the RV manufacturing industry has an "acceptable failure rate". I've no idea what that rate may be, but I'd guess it's significantly higher than the automobile industry which has, for the most part, replaced "low wage line workers" with robots that seldom make mistakes and aren't as prone to "being angry", don't call in sick and don't demand breaks and vacation time. That said, I do know that there is a QC department in each Keystone plant and the inspectors do "red tag" identified problems. The crew has to "stay on production" and at the same time, break someone off the line to repair the "red tags". So, it's their "incentive" not to make mistakes so they can stay on production with a full crew. Just how much incentive that is for the "disgruntled worker" is anybody's guess.

It's been my experience that most dealers will repair small things to keep the customer happy. It's the "major problems" that involve the factory and depending on how the dealer explains it to the warranty department has much more to do with approval than the problem itself.

I believe you're right on "reduced labor rate" and "shifting repairs to the dealer" where the hourly cost in manhours is "negotiated to an acceptable rate" that's lower than the factory pays the line crew workers. That, as a practice, makes it cheaper for the factory to ship trailers that may have problems than to keep them in the plant until they're completely free of minor defects. That seems logical to me, even "smart business" in some aspects. The problem comes when that "defect rate" starts impacting sales and customer satisfaction. I really don't think it's a "thin line" that Keystone dances, rather a "comfortable sidewalk" that they have for balancing satisfaction with complaints of defects.

In an ideal world, the factory wouldn't ship defective products and we'd all only have to pay half the MSRP when we buy the product and they would all last at least two times their intended lifespan with no interim failures. But, if that happened, the repairmen would be out of work and after a couple of cycles, so would the manufacturers. It takes failure, breakdowns and the desire to buy replacements to keep the "wheels grinding". So, if there weren't at least, some "problems" there would probably not be as dynamic an industry..... As long as the manufacturer's "failure rate" is below his acceptable rate and he's making money, he stays in business.
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:03 AM   #13
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JRTJH,
At the RV show this year, I watched a presentation on Keystone quality. I was actually happy that they produced it, it's at least a *nod* to the quality concern. Two things I picked up on:
1) It implied a focus on customer service (factory direct) - but there was no real indication of a policy shift to better direct support. Reading between the lines I they're just trying to improve dealer technical support.
2) There was a walk through with someone in their QA department. Literally, I saw a young lady testing the operation of the stove install. She lit the burners with a lighter and they functioned fine. Course, they didn't try the factory igniter (which didn't function on my RV) - I found that somewhat amusing.

Obviously they have some sort of post production PDI.. So that's good. It's unreasonable to expect all issues to be sorted out, regardless of brand or amount of money spent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by JRTJH View Post
... The problem comes when that "defect rate" starts impacting sales and customer satisfaction. I really don't think it's a "thin line" that Keystone dances, rather a "comfortable sidewalk" that they have for balancing satisfaction with complaints of defects.
So this is really tricky when running a business. Why? Because it's abstract. You can determine down to the dollar what factory defects are costing through warranty repair rate. You can adjust that figure by rejecting repair requests, paying less for them, or doing fewer consumer friendly things (like addressing factory defects after 12 months - Keystone does some of this).

You cannot determine, definitively and quantitatively, what reputation is doing positively or negatively to your sales. I work in a highly quantitative metrics driven business. We know exactly what a return costs us. What we are unable/unwilling to quantify - and honestly have never quantified - is the relationship between quality and retention of our customers. And it'd be much easier to do in our business (we have a lot more data) than it would be in the RV business. It requires statistical modeling and long term study.

And RVs aren't like cars - I don't know how many new RVs people typically buy in their lifetimes. I've owned 4. 4 completely different brands, but I've probably owned 20 cars in that same span. So maybe there isn't a high correlation between brand and re-purchase?

Largely, I'm accepting that there will be defects in *ALL* RV manufacturing. It's simply not a problem that you can spend yourself out of. I think what matters most to me is how the manufacturer responds to those defects in general. I hope Keystone continues to pay attention and improve their consumer responsiveness.
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Old 03-11-2016, 07:55 AM   #14
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... I think what matters most to me is how the manufacturer responds to those defects in general. I hope Keystone continues to pay attention and improve their consumer responsiveness.
I agree. Keystone, from the reports I've read and from comments on this forum, tend to be responsive to customer's warranty repairs. There are reports from unhappy customers (some skewed, some not), there always will be, but from the information I see on RV Trade websites and from personal comments I've read, it seems Keystone does respond to consumer needs. The old adage, "You can't please everybody" is true in any business, even RV'ing.

Let the flames begin
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