Very Dissappointed

[TXiceman]

As long as people keep buying junk and the CEOs keep getting big paychecks and bonuses, nothing will change. All they push for is a big bottom line. The workers have no incentive for quality control.

Ken

[wiredgeorge]

Originally Posted by cougar23

It is NOT just Keystone! In the past couple of years we have had 3 new trailers and 1 new motorhome. None of the factories pay attention to quality control. It is left up to the dealers to fix those issues upon approval by the manufactures.
That is why it is important to have and do a complete inspection before taking ownership. Have the water tank filled, test hot water heater, have furnace tested, test microwave, refrigerator and stove.
I did not do these things and had to return to dealer numerous times
for repairs. Our current Keystone camper has been the best issue one so far.
If you think the visible items are bad wait until you ever get into the belly or behind the cabinets that are not visible. They do not even clean up the saw dust where holes are cut for pipes and wires.

I have a 2002 and still find sawdust in the light fixtures after taking the camper out on the road.

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by TXiceman

As long as people keep buying junk and the CEOs keep getting big paychecks and bonuses, nothing will change. All they push for is a big bottom line. The workers have no incentive for quality control.

Ken

In your preferred scenario what is the answer? The people have no opportunity for affordable products? CEO's don't get paid for their efforts and making a company grow? CEO's don't exist and the "people" then own the company? The incentive for workers to perform quality work is 100% dictated by the company and the QA program instituted - the "workers" have no incentive to do QA at all on their own without direction and the associated costs.

[flybouy]

Don't forget the stock holders when spreading blame. Publicly traded companies "live and die" on the stockmarket. No one that has an investment (401k, retirement plan, etc.) Would accept a loss in their investment so the pressure to cut costs and or reduce costs is a constant pressure on manufacturers.

[jxnbbl]

Originally Posted by CmbtMdc

Bought this new and please if you are considering this model or any Keystone Products - Run Away Far Away.... I am an honest person and I could not even sell this to someone I dont like....

I understand your frustration...it sounds like you are committed to the point of fixing the problems encountered. There are many people in here that can help.

[Ddaddyo]

Is it a 2020 or Newer Model? Covid Campers are all built equally bad, Manufacturers don't matter.

[oldnjrver]

We've bought our 2016 Aspen Trail TT new in 2016 and it has run virtually trouble free for the entire time we've owned it. It was built before Thor picked up the Keystone/ Dutchman product line. It also seems to me that the demand during COVID drove manufacturers to their limits!! I have heard from owners of many of the "quality" lines built during covid, having multiple quality problems. A number are still getting problems fixed 2 years after purchase!!

Hopefully the industry has learned from the experience.

Safe travels and all the best.

[Raptor Dave]

Anyways I just tell people that an RV purchase is not like purchasing a car and you have to understand how to fix thing.

This is key right here. We have friends that we show our RV to and get reactions like "Oh this looks like fun. We should get one."
Knowing these people very well and also knowing that they don't even know how to turn the water at their house off in case of a leak inside somewhere, I admittedly explain to them, NO you should not!
Stick with the BnBs you use now for your vacations.

If you're not willing to roll up your sleeves and get dirty to learn new things (yes, frustrating sometimes) you are not the typical RV owner.

[dcwilson]

I can say Keystone is Junk also , I have a 2023 Alpine and it is junk and built with no thought to detail or quality at all. List is too long of the problems I've had and continue to have every time we take the RV on the road.

[pawpaw]

Ever think why most of these big corporations that build these RV's won't do their own financing. Build cheap and sell high and let the dealers do the work. Dealers do a good job selling but after you're out the gate that nice looking RV is your PITA. Dealers grab the down payment and push extended warranties all at a big profit. Financing is usually with a small bank in a little country town that probably gives kickbacks to the dealer or even the RV builder. If the builders had to float their own financing and people would quit paying I bet the QA departments would be back in full swing. Don't even think about buying an RV unless you have knowledge of carpentry..electrical..plumbing and being adapt at trucking to handle some of these large rigs. These campers are nothing like the tanks built in the 60's through the 2000 era when profit took the quality out of the picture!!

[Randallt]

This thread is ironically comforting. And this forum is generally full of great tips, workarounds and experiences I can relate to. I am entering my fifth month of full time-parked living in my 2023 Bullet and am very comfortable with my decision to purchase this trailer. I shopped and viewed trailers vigorously online for a full month before buying my first ever camper.

The excitement started giving way to “what the hell?”, about two weeks in when I realized that the two rear side windows weren’t right. The holes had not been cut to exactly match the windows and you can see how they had to go to extremes to squeeze the windows in by stretching the window frames. Off kilter and amazingly wrong. They are tight and don’t leak, but it was embarrassing to realize what the workers did there. Made me doubt the rest of the trailer’s quality. Then I started discovering other little things, like no cleanup under the cabinets, unfinished table top and loose screws and missing brackets under the stove top.

But that’s about it! Quality Control missed these things, but reading upstream, I now realize that this is just par for the course in this industry. And I’m fine with this. On the plus side, last night it was 22º, and the very well applied under belly was tight and firmly sealed. Nice job Keystone.

[dcwilson]

Originally Posted by Raptor Dave

This is key right here. We have friends that we show our RV to and get reactions like "Oh this looks like fun. We should get one."
Knowing these people very well and also knowing that they don't even know how to turn the water at their house off in case of a leak inside somewhere, I admittedly explain to them, NO you should not!
Stick with the BnBs you use now for your vacations.

If you're not willing to roll up your sleeves and get dirty to learn new things (yes, frustrating sometimes) you are not the typical RV owner.

This is the exact problem, Raptor Dave, people making excuses for shotty workmanship and poor design and saying it is just the nature of the beast and RVs just fall apart when you drive them down the road. I don’t think the problem is not being able to fix what breaks. Its I shouldn't have to do it every trip on a barely one-year-old trailer.

[JWyatt]

What good is a awesome floor plan if everything falls apart?

[TXiceman]

Originally Posted by JWyatt

What good is a awesome floor plan if everything falls apart?

Exactly, you are paying for that awesome floor plan an just enjoying the heck of it while it isin the shop waiting for repairs.

A truly great way to spend your luxury time.

The 10 years we full timed in our HitchHiker Champagne, we had very few problems. When it was in the shop, the issue was .I or and the reason it was in the sop was really for normal maintenance.

I sure miss that grand old trailer. I guess once we get all the up grades and beefing up the Cougar will be acceptable.

Ken

[sourdough]

Originally Posted by dcwilson

This is the exact problem, Raptor Dave, people making excuses for shotty workmanship and poor design and saying it is just the nature of the beast and RVs just fall apart when you drive them down the road. I don’t think the problem is not being able to fix what breaks. Its I shouldn't have to do it every trip on a barely one-year-old trailer.

I think one has to understand the difference between "making excuses" and "accepting reality". When the reality is the trailer you are about to buy, no matter the brand or price point, is probably going to have issues but you buy it....that's accepting reality. When you buy a trailer knowing that it is probably going to have issues then buy it.....then constantly complain and regret the decision....that was a poor decision.

Knowing that the trailer, all trailers, will probably have issues you have to fix is reality and not making excuses. Buying one then complaining about the problems you knew it was going to have doesn't make sense to me. You deal with it. Now, would it be nice if they were "built like a tank" and nary a thing ever failed? Of course. Are most of us going to pay 250-500k for that and buy a semi tractor to pull it? Of course not. You get what you pay for and the manufacturer builds what people will buy....it's really that simple. And back to the reality; as was mentioned, you need to have some skills to own an RV old or new. You need to be attentive and watch for failures and be prepared to fix them. A lightly constructed frame/structure cannot traverse the varied highways and byways of this country in their state of disrepair without being jarred to pieces resulting in "things" coming undone.

Window holes being cut wrong (btdt) happens and shouldn't. Lacquer not being applied because it was forgotten shouldn't happen (btdt). Slides tearing up fabric and the entire slide bottoms needing replaced shouldn't happen (btdt). The list is endless....but the reality is that they DO happen and one needs to be prepared. I have found over the years I am far, FAR happier just dealing with it until everything is fixed vs getting all fired up everytime a screw comes loose, start venting, hit the internet complaining etc. I've got far better things to do....and I'm much, much happier. JMO/YMMV as I'm sure it does.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by TXiceman

We have had RVs since 1984 and all I can say is the quality has gone downhill, especially in the last 5 years.

Bingo. The problem doesn't seem to be correlated with manufacturers as much as it is with eras. My rig from 25 years ago was a paragon of quality and stability, and it got pulled down the road way more than the one I own today. Had I known in 2019 what I know now. I would have had this one PDIed by a pro before acceptance.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by oldnjrver

It also seems to me that the demand during COVID drove manufacturers to their limits!! I have heard from owners of many of the "quality" lines built during covid, having multiple quality problems. A number are still getting problems fixed 2 years after purchase!!

When I saw how COVID regulations were strangling vacation travel, I predicted that RVing would surge. When it did, I counseled my kids that if they wanted to buy an RV, they should hold off until all the newbies discovered how trouble-free RVing wasn't, and flooded the used market with rigs, driving prices down. Then when I learned how much the manufacturers had sacrificed quality during that period to satisfy the demand bubble, I realized that even fire-sale prices might not compensate for the added problems they could expect from those production lots.

[Raptor Dave]

Originally Posted by dcwilson

This is the exact problem, Raptor Dave, people making excuses for shotty workmanship and poor design and saying it is just the nature of the beast and RVs just fall apart when you drive them down the road. I don’t think the problem is not being able to fix what breaks. Its I shouldn't have to do it every trip on a barely one-year-old trailer.

Oh listen, I hear the pain, I've felt the pain. The thing is being a Keystone forum does not change the issue. You can go to any brand X RV forum and you'll read about the same crap. The message is....
If you buy any RV used OR brand new be prepared learn about stuff... to fix stuff... clean up stuff... jury rig stuff...and the list goes on. You will be in RV school for as long as you own one.

[Raptor Dave]

Originally Posted by sourdough

I think one has to understand the difference between "making excuses" and "accepting reality". When the reality is the trailer you are about to buy, no matter the brand or price point, is probably going to have issues but you buy it....that's accepting reality. When you buy a trailer knowing that it is probably going to have issues then buy it.....then constantly complain and regret the decision....that was a poor decision.

Knowing that the trailer, all trailers, will probably have issues you have to fix is reality and not making excuses. Buying one then complaining about the problems you knew it was going to have doesn't make sense to me. You deal with it. Now, would it be nice if they were "built like a tank" and nary a thing ever failed? Of course. Are most of us going to pay 250-500k for that and buy a semi tractor to pull it? Of course not. You get what you pay for and the manufacturer builds what people will buy....it's really that simple. And back to the reality; as was mentioned, you need to have some skills to own an RV old or new. You need to be attentive and watch for failures and be prepared to fix them. A lightly constructed frame/structure cannot traverse the varied highways and byways of this country in their state of disrepair without being jarred to pieces resulting in "things" coming undone.

Window holes being cut wrong (btdt) happens and shouldn't. Lacquer not being applied because it was forgotten shouldn't happen (btdt). Slides tearing up fabric and the entire slide bottoms needing replaced shouldn't happen (btdt). The list is endless....but the reality is that they DO happen and one needs to be prepared. I have found over the years I am far, FAR happier just dealing with it until everything is fixed vs getting all fired up everytime a screw comes loose, start venting, hit the internet complaining etc. I've got far better things to do....and I'm much, much happier. JMO/YMMV as I'm sure it does.

^^^^^^
I should have continued reading before I replied.

[LHaven]

Originally Posted by Raptor Dave

The message is....
If you buy any RV used OR brand new be prepared learn about stuff... to fix stuff... clean up stuff... jury rig stuff...and the list goes on. You will be in RV school for as long as you own one.

The challenge is to get that message out there to prospective owners before they make a mistake. Forums don't work, because they are invariably in the "too late" category. What's the proper channel?

When I was buying my first rig, before the Internet, there was an independent org called something like RV Buyers Guide. They published a massive catalogue of ratings, nearly as thick as the Good Sam campground guide, with owner ratings for nearly every model and year of RV. I can say I was very satisfied with the rig I bought using their guide. Since they were not affiliated with any manufacturers or suppliers, they could afford to tell it like it was, and would've been a perfect place for a discussion such as this. The group still exists, but it is a shell of its former self, and even fewer people have heard of it now than did back then.

Also back then, the Good Sam club was much more of a true user group, and much less of a top-down, industry-captive insurance peddler. I like to think they would've run a discussion like this in the mid 90s, but they certainly would not today.

It would be nice if there were a place that would host information and tutorials on this very subject, in a venue that buyers would be likely to find before making their buying decisions.