Lithium Battery Upgrade Advice

[PackFan]

I am looking at upgrading the batteries on my Cougar 24SABWE with the SolarFlex 400i system to LiFePO4 lithium replacing the 12 volt Group 24 flooded lead acid batteries currently installed.

It looks like I should go with two 12 volt 100ah batteries with 100 amp discharge each to meet the maximum draw of the 2,000 watt inverter. This will give me approximately 2,400 watts of available power (200 amps x 12 volts = 2,400 watts). Am I on the right track here?

I am looking at alternatives to the Dragon Fly/Battle Born batteries Keystone installs due to their cost (even though they are assembled down the road from me). I am looking at batteries that have low temp charging cut-off. Many of the lower cost batteries lack this feature. It looks like Victron has an add-on Battery Sense dongle that manages low temperature charging, but it will not stop the trailer's converter from charging if I am plugged in. Fortunately, the Cougar has the WFCO WF-8955-AD converter that will auto detect and adjust charging parameters for the lithiums.

In any case, it is a large investment. I have already purchased B and D battery locks http://www.b-drvbatterylock.com/ to keep these expensive batteries from disappearing from the tongue.

Is there anything else I need to consider?

[JRTJH]

Since Li batteries are essentially maintenance free and don't require venting, have you considered moving them from the A-frame tongue space to inside the front passthrough? That would pretty much eliminate any security concerns and would put the batteries in a "temperature controlled environment"...

Additionally, from a "safety/fire standpoint", the way Li batteries "explode and cause a fire" it's pretty much a given that two batteries sitting on the tongue isn't much less "dangerous" than two batteries sitting in the passthrough. Either location, if there's a "mishap" is going to destroy that end of the trailer. So, moving them to the passthrough won't increase the "danger" substantially....

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Since Li batteries are essentially maintenance free and don't require venting, have you considered moving them from the A-frame tongue space to inside the front passthrough? That would pretty much eliminate any security concerns and would put the batteries in a "temperature controlled environment"...

Additionally, from a "safety/fire standpoint", the way Li batteries "explode and cause a fire" it's pretty much a given that two batteries sitting on the tongue isn't much less "dangerous" than two batteries sitting in the passthrough. Either location, if there's a "mishap" is going to destroy that end of the trailer. So, moving them to the passthrough won't increase the "danger" substantially....

Interesting suggestion. I have a bunch of stuff in this compartment (as most probably do), but I could likely make room.

The inverter is in there already, so wiring would be short and pretty straightforward. I could also relocate the smart shunt and install a new switch for the inverter which would eliminate the problematic inverter switch box on the frame by the tongue.

There is another thread going about this switch box filling up with water and potentially damaging the shunt inside. I think the switch and shunt should have been put in this compartment to begin with to better protect them- like the 5th wheels have.

My shunt isn't working either and is currently being looked at by the dealer under warranty.

[JRTJH]

Thinking outside the box for a moment, you could build a shelf from the front wall about 10" or so from the top of the passthrough and then slide the batteries onto that shelf. That way, you wouldn't lose any floorspace and can just rearrange your cargo so the "less tall stuff" is under that shelf. Just be sure, no matter where you install them, that they are anchored down so they won't go crashing into anything in the event of an accident.

Another "plug" with having them "up toward the top of the passthrough" is that there's much less chance that anything would fall onto the terminals, shorting the battery.....

[pasayten]

Note that 100ah LiFePO4 batteries are Group 27 size... Larger than Group 24... I was barely able to install the 2 x Group 27 cases on my trailer tongue... Had to trim lids a little... But I got it to fit and work flawlessly... I bought the BattleBorn heated versions so no problem being on the tongue... I am very happy with the upgrade. No way did I want to try and re-route all the wiring to inside the passthru... :-)

[markcee]

Don't know if you've received the B&D battery lock straps yet but if not, compare the website measurements against the boxes you have or will purchase.

B&D markets the locks as for '6V' or '12v' batteries but that is not wholly accurate. I had to return my '12v' straps because they did not fit over my existing basic Camco 12v double box (the boxes were too tall due to the lid). I returned them and ordered the taller '6v' variety, which gave me a good fit.

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by pasayten

Note that 100ah LiFePO4 batteries are Group 27 size... Larger than Group 24... I was barely able to install the 2 x Group 27 cases on my trailer tongue... Had to trim lids a little... But I got it to fit and work flawlessly... I bought the BattleBorn heated versions so no problem being on the tongue... I am very happy with the upgrade. No way did I want to try and re-route all the wiring to inside the passthru... :-)

Thanks for the heads up. I did some rough measurements and I think the Group 27 boxes will be OK. Based on your experience, I think I will buy a Group 27 box before ordering the batteries to confirm though.

I have an inexpensive Ecoworthy 100ah that is Group 24 size for my pontoon boat trolling motor. It has been great so far, but it doesn't have low temp charging protection. This is not a big deal in this application, but I definitely want this feature (or heated batteries as you did) for the RV. Most of the other 100ah batteries with this feature are the larger size.

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by markcee

Don't know if you've received the B&D battery lock straps yet but if not, compare the website measurements against the boxes you have or will purchase.

B&D markets the locks as for '6V' or '12v' batteries but that is not wholly accurate. I had to return my '12v' straps because they did not fit over my existing basic Camco 12v double box (the boxes were too tall due to the lid). I returned them and ordered the taller '6v' variety, which gave me a good fit.

I have got the B&D locks on my Group 24 size Camco brand boxes currently. Hopefully they will fit the larger Group 27 boxes (as their website indicates), but nothing is guaranteed. I plan on getting a Group 27 box to trial fit on the tongue. It sounds like I should also try out the locks.

In the short term, I think I am going to push the easy button and put the new batteries back on the tongue while I contemplate a move to the pass through. Some of this will depend on what I find out about the smart shunt problem. It would be nice to have all these components protected and secure inside.

[Stircrazy]

Did you look at the 270AH dragonfly?

It has a 300amp continuous output BMS, and while you would never use that much with a 2000watt inverter, you won't max out the battery. Plus, you get 270AH instead of 200AH and it comes in heated and non-heated versions.

I would have no issues having this inside the heated space... LiFeP04 does not have the thermal runaway potential that other forms of LI had and are actually very hard to get to run away short of driving a metal shank through them.

Steve

[tallen]

LION ENERGY- Safari UT 1300 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - 105Ah 12v with 1,344WH and a Built-in BMS - 3500+ Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery. I am not ready to install but as soon as I am, I am going to go with this one. Just my thoughts.

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

Did you look at the 270AH dragonfly?

It has a 300amp continuous output BMS, and while you would never use that much with a 2000watt inverter, you won't max out the battery. Plus, you get 270AH instead of 200AH and it comes in heated and non-heated versions.

I would have no issues having this inside the heated space... LiFeP04 does not have the thermal runaway potential that other forms of LI had and are actually very hard to get to run away short of driving a metal shank through them.

Steve

Thanks. I will take a look. Mounting inside the pass through would open up some other options for larger batteries.

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by tallen

LION ENERGY- Safari UT 1300 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - 105Ah 12v with 1,344WH and a Built-in BMS - 3500+ Deep Cycle Rechargeable Battery. I am not ready to install but as soon as I am, I am going to go with this one. Just my thoughts.

Thanks. Looks good. I think these also have 150 amp discharge. Maybe someday there will be a single Group 27-31 battery with sufficient storage and power to drive a 2,000 watt inverter. Some are getting pretty close.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by PackFan

Thanks. I will take a look. Mounting inside the pass through would open up some other options for larger batteries.

ya and 270AH is quite a bit depending on what you do for power when you're out, that's more usable power than I have in my 5th wheel (four 208AH GC2 6V), but I also have 480watts of solar.

but like you said in the pass through, if you find it isn't enough then easy to add a second, but also more secure and easier to mount up.

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by Stircrazy

ya and 270AH is quite a bit depending on what you do for power when you're out, that's more usable power than I have in my 5th wheel (four 208AH GC2 6V), but I also have 480watts of solar.

but like you said in the pass through, if you find it isn't enough then easy to add a second, but also more secure and easier to mount up.

Yea. Even 200ah's with 200 amps discharge is overkill for my needs. I don't even come close to maxing out the 2,000 watt inverter currently, but figured I would provide enough battery to do so down the road. Based on my calculations, 170 amps or so would do the trick (2,000/12).

Big Battery makes a 170ah with 175 amp discharge: https://bigbattery.com/products/12v-...70ah-2-176kwh/ Some of the reviews are mixed though and it would require pass through mounting.

I am currently leaning towards the SOK batteries: https://www.us.sokbattery.com/. Probably 2 100ah for the tongue that could be moved to the pass through or 1 206ah pass though only. The reviews on these look good and they are serviceable in the future if a BMS or cell craps out.

[Stircrazy]

Originally Posted by PackFan

Yea. Even 200ah's with 200 amps discharge is overkill for my needs. I don't even come close to maxing out the 2,000 watt inverter currently, but figured I would provide enough battery to do so down the road. Based on my calculations, 170 amps or so would do the trick (2,000/12).

Big Battery makes a 170ah with 175 amp discharge: https://bigbattery.com/products/12v-...70ah-2-176kwh/ Some of the reviews are mixed though and it would require pass through mounting.

I am currently leaning towards the SOK batteries: https://www.us.sokbattery.com/. Probably 2 100ah for the tongue that could be moved to the pass through or 1 206ah pass though only. The reviews on these look good and they are serviceable in the future if a BMS or cell craps out.

ya I bought my cells and BMS and built my own battery (304Ah with 150 watt BMS) and I use it on a 2000 watt inverter but I know I am never using much over 1000watts. when I built this battery, I was looking for emergency power reserves so if something happens to my solar controller or what not that they are not working anymore I have an 8-to-9-day battery power reserve. This also makes it a shallow discharge and charge over normal use which increases the life of the battery even more, so it's not a terrible thing to have more capacity.

[fchampneys]

I agree with Tallen. I have had the LION ENERGY- Safari UT 1300 LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery for 3 years now and love them. In fact, just installed my 3rd battery for extra storage for my 400 W solar panels.

[Life-in-Him]

We have a 24sabwe & am looki @ Li.
We installed a twist lock power cable setup which freed up the area under the kitchen drawers.
Thinking of removing the outdide shower & putting Li batteries in the recovered space.
That would enable larger DC cables, shorter run & reusing old DC cables for dc-dc charge from TV.
OP might consider a similar setup in his rig.

[GASII]

I have a 2019 26RBS and am considering an upgrade to Lithium batteries, for our current pair of 100amp hour deep cells 27s on the tongue.
Our typical use (only wife & I, who are full-time RVers) is to boondock over a weekend with limited (if any) need to run the furnace. In the past, we have operated minimally overnight on the 12V systems (including 2 CPAP breathing machines) and do not currently intend to install an inverter, as we have a stand alone quiet generator that we can use during the day to recharge batteries and run any needed 120V items.
Primary question: Is the tow vehicle (2018 RAM 1500) & Keystone factory charging shore power system typically compatible with/safe for Lithium without modification?
Question 2: Any opinions on if a 100 vs. 200 amp hour battery would be sufficient? (cost is always a concern)
Question 3: I have a factory installed Furrion solar port, which we do not currently use. Is that system compatible with Lithium batteries? Any opinion on whether a stand alone solar charging system is a better choice? (I do not desire to permanently install solar at this time)
Any other thoughts?

[PackFan]

Originally Posted by GASII

I have a 2019 26RBS and am considering an upgrade to Lithium batteries, for our current pair of 100amp hour deep cells 27s on the tongue.
Our typical use (only wife & I, who are full-time RVers) is to boondock over a weekend with limited (if any) need to run the furnace. In the past, we have operated minimally overnight on the 12V systems (including 2 CPAP breathing machines) and do not currently intend to install an inverter, as we have a stand alone quiet generator that we can use during the day to recharge batteries and run any needed 120V items.
Primary question: Is the tow vehicle (2018 RAM 1500) & Keystone factory charging shore power system typically compatible with/safe for Lithium without modification?
Question 2: Any opinions on if a 100 vs. 200 amp hour battery would be sufficient? (cost is always a concern)
Question 3: I have a factory installed Furrion solar port, which we do not currently use. Is that system compatible with Lithium batteries? Any opinion on whether a stand alone solar charging system is a better choice? (I do not desire to permanently install solar at this time)
Any other thoughts?

There are probably others who know more about this subject, but I think the primary thing you need to check out is the lithium charging capability of your converter/charger. Lithium batteries require different charging voltage and parameters than lead acid batteries to get fully charged.

You likely have a WFCO brand converter. At the end of the model number is an alpha code. Keystone is now normally installing "AD" models which stands for "Auto Detect". These converters supposedly automatically adjust for the battery type installed- lead acid or lithium. "PEC" models have lead acid specific chargers that will not fully charge lithium batteries. There is another WFCO model that has an internal switch to go between lead acid and lithium, but I am not sure what that model number is.

On 1 or 2 batteries, based on your requirements you may be able to get by with one 100ah lithium battery as lithium can be discharged more than lead acid without damage. One 100ah lithium would provide almost as much useable power as the 2 lead acids you have today. Lithium also recharges much faster. As you are running CPAP's, I would probably put in two 100ah or a single 200ah to have additional capacity and peace of mind, but that is your call.

On the Furrion solar port, I believe that only provides the wiring between an external solar panel and the batteries. Lithium compatibility would be determined by the solar charge controller you would need to add with the solar panels.

[travelin texans]

My personal opinion if your battery needs are only for a weekend & already have or intend to get an inverter generator to keep the batteries charged you wouldn't need to spend all that $$$ on a new converter & high priced lithium batteries. A couple good quality deep cycle batteries would suffice.
The more I hear about lithium batteries & thier dangers I'm not sure I want any more than absolutely necessary in the items I already have powered by them.