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Old 02-07-2023, 04:05 PM   #21
Badbart56
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Originally Posted by wiredgeorge View Post
If you live in an area where the EV is being thrust on you, invest in an extension cord company I guess. Folks will demand charging stations in parking lots in new construction but an older place will probably have a bunch of power cords hanging out windows and the like.
May as well do like the old electric trolleys and put and electric grid above the highways and roads to make contact with the cars! Might be cheaper in the long run!
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Old 02-07-2023, 04:09 PM   #22
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I hate to keep bringing this up but the reality of owning an EV is much different than the hype...and this is real life.

Talked to DS this morning, he about to go get the Tesla for the buyer. It was a slightly used Tesla with very few miles. The tow truck finally picked up the car, unattended in a bad part of Dallas, and took it back to the dealer. The put it on the regular slow charger because they didn't have a Tesla charger but it wouldn't charge fast enough. Put it back on a tow truck and took it to a location with a Tesla fast charger and charged the vehicle. It's back at the dealer and he's going to take it to the buyer today.

Can you imagine; mom calls and she's having a medical emergency and you encounter this same situation and it's your only car? Picking the kids up at school? Sounds like an owner would spend half their time worrying about when and where to charge the vehicle. And, the charge gauge with the estimated miles left is apparently useless from every account I've heard or read. To get those miles you can't turn on anything so it can't be cold or hot, you can't have a headwind or go up hills, you can't turn on the heater.... You bet! Where I live it's 60 miles to a Tesla charger minimum and we go places, all kinds of distances, on a whim. No way.
Well owing and driving an EV is not for everyone, and much like ICE vehicles mileage claims are always the best conditions. The big difference is that a gas station is easy to find, and 10 minutes later or less you are on your way. With an EV you need to find a charging station (Not yet as common as gas stations), then hope they are at least a level 2, or level 3 charger, so you can be on your way an hour or two to the next charging station.

Our 3500 diesel will show a range of over 500 miles if running empty on a full tank (32 gallons), if I am towing range will be in the 350 range to empty. When around a little less than a half tank, look for a good price on diesel and fill up, yep about 10 minutes or less, time to hit the restroom also.

Towing test with EVs they get maybe 100 miles on a full charge, less than two hours travel time, really don't need restroom, and don't want to eat every two hours either while waiting at least an hour to get to an 80% charge.

I believe you get a 120 volt 15 amp charger with the EV, buit they take a looooong time to charge. You can buy a level 2 or level 3 charger for $$$ and then have it installed at home $$$.

If I ever own one i would install a level 3 charger at home, but would still be at the mercy of public charging stations if traveling.

Use of A/C, Heater, and lights have almost zero affect on the mileage of an ICE vehicle, on an EV you really need to think about the use as pointed out by Sourdough.

Just can't wait for 12 more years, living on the Left coast all states are banning the sale of new ICE cars by 2035.

Maybe some day I will lookup The Fast Lane Trucks test drive of the Ford Lighting to Alaska hauling a popup in bed camper.
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Old 02-07-2023, 04:13 PM   #23
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NBC Nightly News just aired a segment about the increasing number of battery fires in homes where lithium batteries are being charged. They listed things like "batteries used to store electricity from solar systems, charging electrical bikes and scooters, phones, laptops, tablets as being "frequent causes for the fires and explosions. If I got my statistics correct, they said there were 147 injuries and 6 deaths in New York last year from lithium battery fires/explosions.

I immediately thought about the "solar systems on travel trailers" as being very similar to the systems used to store solar energy for residential homes. Most homes are "where a fire department is readily able to respond" while most RV'ers invest in such solar systems so they can use their trailer "out in the boonies, far FAR away from the closest fire department.....

I remember a segment or two over the past year, highlighting fires and explosions with EV's and the tremendous energy that's stored in the battery sitting right under the driver's seat....

While no doubt engineers with lots more experience than me have considered the risks and found them "acceptable for the general public" (or these items wouldn't be sold for home use)... If you're the "one in a million that gets burned or killed by a lithium explosion" it doesn't really matter what the engineers decided was an acceptable risk.....

So, I'll keep my diesel and DW plans to keep her "unleaded Edge", at least until the wheels fall off them.....
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Old 02-07-2023, 04:24 PM   #24
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NBC Nightly News just aired a segment about the increasing number of battery fires in homes where lithium batteries are being charged. They listed things like "batteries used to store electricity from solar systems, charging electrical bikes and scooters, phones, laptops, tablets as being "frequent causes for the fires and explosions. If I got my statistics correct, they said there were 147 injuries and 6 deaths in New York last year from lithium battery fires/explosions.

I immediately thought about the "solar systems on travel trailers" as being very similar to the systems used to store solar energy for residential homes. Most homes are "where a fire department is readily able to respond" while most RV'ers invest in such solar systems so they can use their trailer "out in the boonies, far FAR away from the closest fire department.....

I remember a segment or two over the past year, highlighting fires and explosions with EV's and the tremendous energy that's stored in the battery sitting right under the driver's seat....

While no doubt engineers with lots more experience than me have considered the risks and found them "acceptable for the general public" (or these items wouldn't be sold for home use)... If you're the "one in a million that gets burned or killed by a lithium explosion" it doesn't really matter what the engineers decided was an acceptable risk.....

So, I'll keep my diesel and DW plans to keep her "unleaded Edge", at least until the wheels fall off them.....
The interesting part of that is that many with solar and Lithium batteries are placing them in semi interior spaces, like pass-through storage spaces under the main bed.
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Old 02-07-2023, 05:05 PM   #25
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The interesting part of that is that many with solar and Lithium batteries are placing them in semi interior spaces, like pass-through storage spaces under the main bed.

Just to add, they fall under hazmat.


https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/lithiumbatteries
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Old 02-07-2023, 08:58 PM   #26
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Last episode of the California prisoner wildfire fighting bunch (wife watches and I don't care much for the show) showed them fighting the fire in an EV. The battery is a bugger to put out and they had to raise the car with cribbing and squirt to cool from below.

Also just sat through the State of the Union and the POTUS claimed they were going to install 500,000 charging stations. Can't imagine folks sitting for hour after hour at a Level 2 charging station so would guess some if not most are "fast charging" Level 3. Read this a second ago from a company that installs these things:

"Generally speaking, a Level 2 charger will cost between $1,200 and $6,000, while a Level 3 charger will cost between $30,000 and $80,000+."

Wonder how much will need be spent on electrical generation upgrades to support a half million new charging stations?
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Old 02-08-2023, 06:20 AM   #27
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"Generally speaking, a Level 2 charger will cost between $1,200 and $6,000, while a Level 3 charger will cost between $30,000 and $80,000+."

Wonder how much will need be spent on electrical generation upgrades to support a half million new charging stations?

We're trying to build a cart with a tinker toy set while slaughtering the horse that was supposed to pull it.
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Old 02-08-2023, 06:51 AM   #28
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We're trying to build a cart with a tinker toy set while slaughtering the horse that was supposed to pull it.
Perfect! So true. What I don't get is a lot of the people making these decisions for us, yes, "for us", are somewhat older and should have more intelligence and common sense than they do. I could understand the younger generations who really have no common sense anymore ( "IMO" ) doing all this dumb sh**. But really? OMG!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-10-2023, 11:05 AM   #29
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I think that there is give and take on both sides. ICE-based vehicles produce a lot of greenhouse gases, and I think that we need to figure out a way to reduce those. When the pandemic hit in 2020, commuting was drastically reduced and pollution levels around the world decreased. I'm not trying to say that we need to remain locked down, the point is that with less vehicles on the road, greenhouse gas emissions went down.

Are electric vehicles the answer? I'm not sold on that for 100% of the cases. I think it will be hard to replace ICE-based vehicles for certain things. Things like long-haul trucking, commercial airplanes and pulling heavy trailers long distances like we are doing. There are a number of issues concerning EVs - recycling the battery, the environmental impact of mining to make batteries, lack of charging infrastructure and range to cover a few. The issue that I see is that it is the "only" alternative to ICE-based vehicles and people are jumping hard on that bandwagon and pushing that agenda. I believe that there needs to be a mix moving forward, not a "Thou Shalt" mentality.

I live in a cold climate here in Ontario, and I know a few people that own Teslas and other EVs, and have for years. The city runs both hybrid and electric buses and I have not heard of issues.

I think that there is a place for EVs given certain use cases. For example, if I was a contractor, an electric truck may be just the thing, something that I can carry materials to job sites, charge my cordless tools all day, etc. However, it would be a tool for that use case, running around town, but not for towing an RV or pulling a fifth wheel. If I'm not into RVs and just camp, work remotely from home and don't commute, run around and get groceries, etc., an EV could be a very logical choice for that. I believe that everyone needs to evaluate what your needs are.

Fossil fuels are a limited resource. I don't expect to see them run out in my lifetime; however, there are influences in the world that impact the price of gas. For example, in the last day or so Russia announced a reduction in oil production because of sanctions which has caused the price of crude to rise (around 2% today based on what I just looked at). So fuel prices will fluctuate over time; however, I think the trend upward will continue long term (over the next 10 years or so).

I think there will be a future for alternatives to all ICE-based vehicles. I don't think it's EVs in their current format. There will be good use cases for them, but I think something more will need to be done to address the various issues around them, or a different technology altogether before we can take ICE-based vehicles off he road. I also think that the current deadlines issued by various governments are positioning and will be pushed out as we get closer. And who knows, maybe something will be discovered in the next few years to change things completely, there are lots of people working on it.
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Old 02-10-2023, 12:20 PM   #30
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Really I guess what bothers me the most is the feeling that our government is trying so hard to cram EV's down our throats (much like COVID vaccines) pretending that this is the end all fix for global warming, fossil fuel use, air pollution, and will somehow probably save the three toed spotted skink from extinction too. And the auto manufacturers are jumping on this like it's free beer and BBQ.

The real bottom line is that the EV's simply cannot replace ICE vehicles as it stands today. I drive a diesel powered F-350 and I can get in my truck right now and drive to Alaska if I want to. I don't have to look on the internet for charging stations, it doesn't matter what the climate is, hot, cold, snow, whatever, (mine is 4X4) I can go anywhere with no restrictions. There are plenty of dealerships and repair shops along the way should I need one. And I can do this while hauling my 18,000 pound RV if I want. My fuel range is 500+ miles when empty, probably 300+ when max loaded. I can also carry jerry cans of fuel should I feel the need, unlike the EV counterpart. I have 4670 pounds of payload for whatever I need to carry. My truck had an MSRP of $51,XXX.

The companies that make EV's don't have anything that can replace the truck I have now or perform the same task. And if they did I'm pretty certain the cost would be at least twice, or three times that amount. My truck is 12 years old and has 200K miles on it. Book value on it is somewhere around $20,000 presently. It doesn't need a new engine and likely won't for another 12 years or 200K miles.

The battery on the EV loses shelf life from the moment it's created. My guess is that in 12 years it will need to be replaced. So how much value does a 12 year old EV retain when it's battery life is up? Knowing that a replacement battery is $16K-$20K? Or likely more (a LOT more) if they are able to create an EV that can do what my truck does.

It's pretty much apples and oranges. But the process of making EV's equal or greater than ICE vehicles is going to be extremely costly. The guy or gal working for minimum wage can't afford one.

But Joe said at the (SORRY) State of the Union that we will only need fossil fuel for another 10 years. I'm thinking of moving to Texas and buying some property that I can put my own oil well on. So I can keep driving my old oil burner.
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Old 02-10-2023, 01:26 PM   #31
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Really I guess what bothers me the most is the feeling that our government is trying so hard to cram EV's down our throats (much like COVID vaccines) pretending that this is the end all fix for global warming, fossil fuel use, air pollution, and will somehow probably save the three toed spotted skink from extinction too. And the auto manufacturers are jumping on this like it's free beer and BBQ.
AMEN. The reason the car mfgs have jumped on board because they are all just greedy. The government has promised them billions to do this. Don't kid yourself, thats the only reason. We live in the USA, should we not have freedom? Freedom of choice?? I to believe that EV's have a place in society. They could serve a lot of rolls. However, as stated, to cram it down everyones throats?? Well, freedom= choice. Socialism = well, you can have it but everyone gets the same level of it. Communism = you will do as I say because I tell you to. You decide where we are QUICKLY heading in that scenario!
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Old 02-10-2023, 02:08 PM   #32
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You're preaching to the choir here but easy, easy. We are getting into politics which is a very volatile subject, particulary during these trying times....and prohibited by forum rules. Please keep that in mind as we navigate the waters of these blasted EVs.
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Old 02-10-2023, 04:03 PM   #33
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Old 02-11-2023, 07:22 AM   #34
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John said; "I immediately thought about the "solar systems on travel trailers" as being very similar to the systems used to store solar energy for residential homes. Most homes are "where a fire department is readily able to respond" while most RV'ers invest in such solar systems so they can use their trailer "out in the boonies, far FAR away from the closest fire department....."
Also think about all the rechargeable tools in the house. Everything from flashlights to saws. My solar supply guy knew of a house fire from someone recharging their electric drill. I never (well at least seldom) leave the charge plugged in when I am not home.
EVs are not for everyone (of course) but can be very useful to others. I live in a part of Colorado with almost no charge stations. The sheep rancher below me, and my nearest neighbor who is a mile and a half away, bought one this fall. I think a KIA. Anyway it has been interesting watching him use it. Nearest town is 65 miles one way to do any shopping. (he will not shop our local market in Norwood, 8 miles away for some reason) Next biggest town/city is Grand Junction, 135 miles one way. He has gone to several DRs appointments this winter in Grand Junction and even stayed overnight doing shopping. Has made it there and back each time on the charge he left the house with. He said it has been close a couple of times, especially when he was using the heater at night and it was 0 degrees outside. He said he and his wife were really bundled up and would only turn the heater on for short spells. Coming down the back sides of the passes he could recharge some and run the heater full blast. Anyway each trip is well over 325 miles on the od and he has made it each time. He installed a heavy duty fast charger (?) on the side of his house he plugs into when he gets home. Of course they still use the Dodge for really big trips, carrying loads of stuff, but so far ( 3 plus months) it has worked for them. I asked why they didn't recharge while in Gran Junction and they said as they could make it home ok it was more trouble than it was worth but they could have put what he called a "fast charge" in for 15 minutes for free at the Sams Club and it would have increased his range enough to get home easily. Which his wife declared they would do next time they were coming home after dark in below freezing temps.
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Old 02-11-2023, 07:37 AM   #35
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John said; "I immediately thought about the "solar systems on travel trailers" as being very similar to the systems used to store solar energy for residential homes. Most homes are "where a fire department is readily able to respond" while most RV'ers invest in such solar systems so they can use their trailer "out in the boonies, far FAR away from the closest fire department....."
Also think about all the rechargeable tools in the house. Everything from flashlights to saws. My solar supply guy knew of a house fire from someone recharging their electric drill. I never (well at least seldom) leave the charge plugged in when I am not home.
EVs are not for everyone (of course) but can be very useful to others. I live in a part of Colorado with almost no charge stations. The sheep rancher below me, and my nearest neighbor who is a mile and a half away, bought one this fall. I think a KIA. Anyway it has been interesting watching him use it. Nearest town is 65 miles one way to do any shopping. (he will not shop our local market in Norwood, 8 miles away for some reason) Next biggest town/city is Grand Junction, 135 miles one way. He has gone to several DRs appointments this winter in Grand Junction and even stayed overnight doing shopping. Has made it there and back each time on the charge he left the house with. He said it has been close a couple of times, especially when he was using the heater at night and it was 0 degrees outside. He said he and his wife were really bundled up and would only turn the heater on for short spells. Coming down the back sides of the passes he could recharge some and run the heater full blast. Anyway each trip is well over 325 miles on the od and he has made it each time. He installed a heavy duty fast charger (?) on the side of his house he plugs into when he gets home. Of course they still use the Dodge for really big trips, carrying loads of stuff, but so far ( 3 plus months) it has worked for them. I asked why they didn't recharge while in Gran Junction and they said as they could make it home ok it was more trouble than it was worth but they could have put what he called a "fast charge" in for 15 minutes for free at the Sams Club and it would have increased his range enough to get home easily. Which his wife declared they would do next time they were coming home after dark in below freezing temps.
So what I get from this is you know a guy that can obviously afford an extra $48.5K car yet chooses to endanger himself and his family.....for WHAT?

https://www.kia.com/us/en/ev?chid%3D...96666f99d11850
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Old 02-11-2023, 04:39 PM   #36
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I’m really with Bart on this one. The Colorado dude cutting it short seems like the least suitable person to buy an EV.
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Old 02-11-2023, 05:02 PM   #37
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^^^The only places that make sense for an EV are places I will never be. I won't live in a place swarming with people, public transportation pulling/pushing sardine cans etc. An EV might have a niche, a very small niche, for city dwellers that only need to go a few miles in perfect weather to get a gallon of milk but they have no place for folks that go out, in all kinds of weather, jump in (with or without a load) and head out to ??? That's what Americans do and EVs don't.
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Old 02-11-2023, 06:50 PM   #38
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Bart... Not sure how he endangers himself. He easily has made it. Running out of gas is also a possibility out here. He likes getting the equivalent of 150 mile pg. My point was even in below zero weather he had a range of over 350 miles. And in America to each his own. He wants to run electric. So whats the problem? He does it here where it is probably harder to do than any where else except a few places in America. AND he does it successfully. Seems to me the naysayers are no different than all the skeptics in 1890 who declared, as experts will, that a gas engine couldn't replace the horse. Where would he get gas? He'll be stranded and die out on the prairie. You have never been someplace where an extra 5 dollars in gas would have easily gotten you where you were going but decided that you could make it and drove past the gas station? I am 75 years old and I have done that on more than one occasion and never thought I was endangering myself or my family. And no I have never gotten stranded because of it. And neither has my neighbor with his electric car...yet. So again, whats the problem? He likes his electric car, it is serving him well out here in RURAL America, so my guess is it will serve well in urban America too. THAT was my point. No one is forcing anyone to buy an electric vehicle. Those that do chose to of a free choice. You don't want one don't buy one but ridiculing some one else's choice seems petty and small to me.
JMO and I could be wrong. But I sure get tired of all the negativity. It's just another way of moving our lazy a**** down the road.
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Old 02-12-2023, 04:04 AM   #39
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Oak, if I might speak for Jeff, I believe it is this "He said it has been close a couple of times, especially when he was using the heater at night and it was 0 degrees outside. He said he and his wife were really bundled up and would only turn the heater on for short spells. Coming down the back sides of the passes he could recharge some and run the heater full blast" that you wrote that he is speaking of. Neither I nor my wife would find it acceptable to really bundle up and only run the heater for a short spell. And since the temperature was zero then it places both in danger.
Certainly there is a place for EV's. In my opinion the government is pushing the acceptance and use faster than technology can keep up, but, given time, the world will be driving EV's. Just like those infernal electric bikes and scooters! Darn, I didn't mean for that to slip out!
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Old 02-12-2023, 05:16 AM   #40
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dangerous for sure and not only for the driver and passenger that could freeze to death when the battery dies and no cell signal up in the mountains…but for the truck driver that swerved to miss a dead in the road 4000 lb electric vehicle that couldn’t be pushed out of the road because it’s too heavy for the driver.

i think the guy gets a thrill out of pushing it to the edge…he would love to be skydiving but for him this is his extreme sport
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