Generator bonding

[xrated]

Originally Posted by jasin1

yeah i saw where it had two 50 amp outlets ..the problem is they are two separate 50 amp 240 outlets..you can’t parallel them …i can’t see how you could tie that in SAFELY to power the house..you can’t run both wires to the panel…now if you had sub panels you could do something but it gets complicated . …so your limited to one 50 amp..now you could use other cords to power things in the house but would need to have them completely disconnected from the home electric system..it just seems complicated ..i’d get a regular standby generator and an ATS …or just get a smaller generator..i love a good challenge BUT you should always consult with a licensed electrician for guidance.
...not trying to shoot your idea down just offering a suggestion since you haven’t purchased it yet

The generator output is fed to a double pole 83A main breaker. From there, individual wires are then fed to a 50A breaker for each 14-50R on the generator. So even though there are two individual receptacles (14-50R), they are both fed from the same source. My plan is to install the two 50A generator inlets and bring the wiring into a 6" x 6" x 4" J-box and splice both L1 leads to a larger wire, splice both L2 wires to a larger wire and so on. From there, the 4 wire will enter the breaker panel and be landed at the appropriate terminals.

This may all be a moot point though, my generator arrived this past Tuesday (a week ago) and the generator was DOA....the engine simply will not start. I am in the process now of getting my money refunded and them picking up the tab for shipping the generator back for them to do whatever they want with it. I'm now looking at a 12Kw (running) 15Kw (peak) generator. I can make it work for out our house....not ideal, but workable. And of course that one only has the one 14-50R on the front of it, along with some 30A and the normal duplex receptacles. It also has a removable jumper to eliminate the neutral/ground bonding inside the generator, as that will not be needed when using it to provide power to the house breaker panel. I'm also going to probably opt for the built in Duel Fuel option, just in case I get caught in an emergency without a supply of gasoline....I've always got several propane bottles around the house....gas fireplace, two 30s in the camper, a gas grill, etc, etc.

[xrated]

An Update: So the 20Kw generator was returned to Westinghouse via a trucking company shipper and I ordered the Westinghouse WGen12000 DFc model. That one arrived yesterday and I unboxed it but left it on the shipping crate.....just in case. So I added oil, hooked up the included battery, and grabbed a 20lb propane tank and hooked it up. It started up on the first attempt and surprisingly, it wasn't as loud as I expected it to be. I'm accustomed to my Yamaha 6300 Inverter generator, which is very quiet, so this one is definitely louder....but it's an open frame and it's 12,000 running watts...so that is to be expected. I didn't buy it for anything other than being able to provide emergency power to the house if/when it is needed. It's not going camping with me, and it's not going to be run in other locations, so the noise level will just have to be what it is, during emergency usage situations. This one also has the low THD of < or = to 5%....which is right in line with most utilities companies that provide power to your house.

I would also like to say, in my case, Westinghouse Co. AND Electric Generators Direct provided me with excellent customer service on this. There is the normal process in place when a company is going to totally refund your money and buy back the generator, but all in all it went very smoothly and I just wanted to mention the good customer service from both of them.

So today, I'll be putting gasoline in the tank and trying that, just to make sure that it also runs on gas....vs. just the propane test yesterday.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by xrated

An Update: So the 20Kw generator was returned to Westinghouse via a trucking company shipper and I ordered the Westinghouse WGen12000 DFc model. That one arrived yesterday and I unboxed it but left it on the shipping crate.....just in case. So I added oil, hooked up the included battery, and grabbed a 20lb propane tank and hooked it up. It started up on the first attempt and surprisingly, it wasn't as loud as I expected it to be. I'm accustomed to my Yamaha 6300 Inverter generator, which is very quiet, so this one is definitely louder....but it's an open frame and it's 12,000 running watts...so that is to be expected. I didn't buy it for anything other than being able to provide emergency power to the house if/when it is needed. It's not going camping with me, and it's not going to be run in other locations, so the noise level will just have to be what it is, during emergency usage situations. This one also has the low THD of < or = to 5%....which is right in line with most utilities companies that provide power to your house.

I would also like to say, in my case, Westinghouse Co. AND Electric Generators Direct provided me with excellent customer service on this. There is the normal process in place when a company is going to totally refund your money and buy back the generator, but all in all it went very smoothly and I just wanted to mention the good customer service from both of them.

So today, I'll be putting gasoline in the tank and trying that, just to make sure that it also runs on gas....vs. just the propane test yesterday.

Nice that it worked out for you and good to hear about the great customer service

[xrated]

Originally Posted by jasin1

Nice that it worked out for you and good to hear about the great customer service

Thank you, I guess I'm old enough to remember when good Customer Service was King. Unfortunately, it seems that there are way too many companies that don't prioritize that facet of their business anymore....they just want the sales and the heck with C.S. if something goes wrong.

This weekend, I will be writing a letter to both companies and telling them my opinion on their customer service and to keep up the good work....they need to know and I'm sure that most of them get more complaints than they do compliments, so they do need to hear when they are doing good.

PS.....I put a couple of gallons of gas in the genny this morning and tried it out. It fired up on the second attempt and all seems well so far.

[bobbecky]

The Westinghouse 12000 is only rated 10800 watts when running on propane, which is still really good. Just so you know

[xrated]

Originally Posted by bobbecky

The Westinghouse 12000 is only rated 10800 watts when running on propane, which is still really good. Just so you know

Correct. My plan is to run on gasoline when needed. I presently have two 5 gallon gas cans, a six gallon can with a hand pump on it, plus a 14 gallon tank on wheels that is gravity fed.....so 30 gallons if all are full. I installed a heavy duty "eye" bolt in the garage ceiling, supported by two trusses on one side and a single truss on the other end and through a 1/4" aluminum angle. That lifting point will allow me to use a small rope hoist to elevate the 14 gallon tank enough for it to gravity feed into the generator tank. If for some reason I get caught out during an outage without enough gasoline to make it through, I can always hook up one of several propane tanks to the genny.....with the reduced power output of course

[JRTJH]

Vernon,

When we installed a similar generator at my BIL's house, he wanted to be able to position the generator inside (the power never goes out on sunny days) so he could keep it out of the rain or the snow/blizzard conditions. I found a "generator exhaust extension" and a "through the wall exhaust port" that bolted onto his generator exhaust, quick disconnects to attach the flex exhaust hose to the wall fitting. He can put his generator next to the wall, inside his pole barn, connect the exhaust to the wall fitting and the generator exhaust is ported outside his building. He has no "danger from CO" inside the pole barn and almost all of the noise is now contained in the pole barn, so all he hears inside the house is a "purrr", even with the windows open.

I wanted to make it even less noisy, so I went to Tractor Supply and bought an old Ford tractor replacement muffler, the "clamp on vertical stack muffler" type and mounted that outside his pole barn, to the generator exhaust pipe. Now his generator exhaust goes through the tractor muffler and exits near the roof overhang on his pole barn.

Now, about all you hear is the "mechanical noise from the alternator and the intake noise from the air cleaner along with the engine internal noise. All the "exhaust rumble" is outside and pretty much "muffled by the tractor muffler". Walk to the front of his pole barn and you can't hear the generator with the barn door closed.

So, now, when the power goes out, he doesn't have to put his generator out in the rain or leave the door open with rain blowing into the pole barn.

I don't think I'd want to stay in there with the door closed and risk an exhaust leak, but from an operational vantage, his equipment stays dry, his place is much quieter when he needs to use the generator and the total cost was around $200 when we did it. Now, with inflation, probably closer to $300. But maybe is something you'd want to look into for your generator to keep it out of the weather when you need to use it.

Here's the link to the Genexhaust website: https://genexhaust.com/bolt-on-extension-kits/

I'm not sure they are the cheapest or even the best, but their equipment worked great for his application and when I called them to see what all we'd need to do the job, their CS department was knowledgeable and very helpful.

ADDED: Here's a link to the type of muffler I got from Tractor Supply: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...0?cm_vc=-10005 The one I bought didn't have a flange on the curved end, it had a split on both sides of the pipe, slipped over the wall port and I used a muffler clamp to secure it in place.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Vernon,

When we installed a similar generator at my BIL's house, he wanted to be able to position the generator inside (the power never goes out on sunny days) so he could keep it out of the rain or the snow/blizzard conditions. I found a "generator exhaust extension" and a "through the wall exhaust port" that bolted onto his generator exhaust, quick disconnects to attach the flex exhaust hose to the wall fitting. He can put his generator next to the wall, inside his pole barn, connect the exhaust to the wall fitting and the generator exhaust is ported outside his building. He has no "danger from CO" inside the pole barn and almost all of the noise is now contained in the pole barn, so all he hears inside the house is a "purrr", even with the windows open.

I wanted to make it even less noisy, so I went to Tractor Supply and bought an old Ford tractor replacement muffler, the "clamp on vertical stack muffler" type and mounted that outside his pole barn, to the generator exhaust pipe. Now his generator exhaust goes through the tractor muffler and exits near the roof overhang on his pole barn.

Now, about all you hear is the "mechanical noise from the alternator and the intake noise from the air cleaner along with the engine internal noise. All the "exhaust rumble" is outside and pretty much "muffled by the tractor muffler". Walk to the front of his pole barn and you can't hear the generator with the barn door closed.

So, now, when the power goes out, he doesn't have to put his generator out in the rain or leave the door open with rain blowing into the pole barn.

I don't think I'd want to stay in there with the door closed and risk an exhaust leak, but from an operational vantage, his equipment stays dry, his place is much quieter when he needs to use the generator and the total cost was around $200 when we did it. Now, with inflation, probably closer to $300. But maybe is something you'd want to look into for your generator to keep it out of the weather when you need to use it.

Here's the link to the Genexhaust website: https://genexhaust.com/bolt-on-extension-kits/

I'm not sure they are the cheapest or even the best, but their equipment worked great for his application and when I called them to see what all we'd need to do the job, their CS department was knowledgeable and very helpful.

ADDED: Here's a link to the type of muffler I got from Tractor Supply: https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/pr...0?cm_vc=-10005 The one I bought didn't have a flange on the curved end, it had a split on both sides of the pipe, slipped over the wall port and I used a muffler clamp to secure it in place.

John, thank you for that information. I have plans to put the generator in my attached garage (bear with me on this, I'll explain). I installed a garage door metal port a few years back and did this with my Yamaha generator. I also put a carbon monoxide sensor in the garage and I've used that setup a few times with success. I bought a six foot length of metal exhaust tubing and that was clamped onto the generator exhaust and out through the metal port....and the carbon monoxide sensor never went off. Plus we have another carbon monoxide sensor inside the house.

The new generator is a DFc model, so Dual Fuel and a built in carbon monoxide sensor as part of the generator....which will actually shut the engine down if it detects a high enough level of carbon monoxide. Between that built in sensor and the one that I have in the garage, plus the one in the house, that part should be covered. I plan on testing the systems though. I'm sure the noise will be more than my Yamaha Inverter put out, but it may just be that will have to be the case for emergency use. I certainly would not try to let it run overnight while we are sleeping, as I would just not be comfortable with that. To put the generator in my detached garage and away from the house, I would need right at 100' of cord to go from the genny to the house breaker panel.....but I did give that some thought.

[{tpc}]

If I hook up my surge protector to the RV outlet on my generator (non-invertor style), and it indicates "correct wiring", do I need to be concerned about bonded neutral and grounding at that point?

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by {tpc}

If I hook up my surge protector to the RV outlet on my generator (non-invertor style), and it indicates "correct wiring", do I need to be concerned about bonded neutral and grounding at that point?

Surge protector no, an EMS typically does.

[bobbecky]

Most construction open frame type generators have the ground and neutrals tied together (bonded), so the EMS will not cause any issues with that type generator It's the Honda type inverter generators that have the ground and neutral connections separate that will cause an EMS to see the problem and shut off power. The EMS is looking for what is normally found from a utility fed source such as your house or a pedestal at a campground, and those will have the neutral and ground connected at the main panel, usually where the utility meter is located.

[xrated]

Another update...and thumbs up. So yesterday, I decided it was time to put the genny through the CO monitor test and make sure that it was working correctly. With the built in monitor on the generator, if it detects high levels of CO, it is supposed to shut the generator down. So, in my DETACHED back garage, I had both OH doors and the entry door closed and fired up the generator. I had also placed a Kidde Nighthawk portable CO monitor in that garage to basically verify what the generator was or was not doing. So after starting the generator and quickly leaving the garage, I started timing how long it would run before....hopefully shutting itself down. Almost exactly 10 minutes later, I hear the generator shut down and as I'm walking up to the garage to open the door and turn on a fan to air things out, I hear the Nighthawk start alarming. Just as a reference, the garage that the genny was in is a 24' x 30 size garage, so I guess it took a bit of time for everything to happen, and I'm totally satisfied with the results.

In actual use, the generator now has a piece of metal flexible hose attached to the exhaust and will be fed out through the garage door metal exhaust port. I also bought a piece of high temperature wrap that will go around the outside of the flexible hose and will be secured with metal tie wraps. The flexible pipe will extend outside of the garage door by a minimum of three feet and the wrap will be pushed up tight against the inside of the garage door, effectively sealing the exhaust port hole so that zero fumes/CO can make it's way back into the garage. The nighthawk will also be in service in the garage itself, monitoring the CO levels.....if any.

And I'm not sure if I mentioned this or not, but I also have a "PowerBack" hooked up at my main breaker panel to alert me to when Utility power is restored. I will come on when it senses Utility power and provide a 100+ db sounder to let you know. In addition to that, I've installed a Red LED in the garage (visible by just opening the door going into the garage from the house) and it is operated from a relay that will come on when Utility power is restored.....just as a visual aid in case I don't hear the PowerBack alarm. And, in addition to that, I've also connected a 5800 series wireless module that ties into the house Burglar Alarm. That module gets a signal from another set of contacts on the previously mentioned relay, and it sends a signal to my Burglar Alarm panel that pops up a window on the display that states...."Utility Power Restored".....and of course it beeps a couple of times every 20 seconds or so, as another audible/visual alert that the power from the Utility is back on. Hopefully, I've got all the bases covered.