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Old 10-15-2020, 11:42 AM   #1
TDI dad
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Junk!

So disappointed with our new Cougar 26RBS. This is our 7th RV; we came out of a Rockwood Signature 36' and wanted to get something 30'ish. First trip, shower leaked, I mean all over the floor, the slide jammed, light fixture fell from the ceiling, the in-Command system went dead for about 4 hours and there's more. The factory used 1 3/4" screws to fasten the theatre seat to the slide floor and they came out the bottom and have now scraped through the vinyl floor inside.
Our dealer has promised to fix/repair all 17 items on our list however this will be our first and last Keystone product...there are better choices out there for $56,000 (CAD).
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Old 10-15-2020, 12:11 PM   #2
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So disappointed with our new Cougar 26RBS. This is our 7th RV; we came out of a Rockwood Signature 36' and wanted to get something 30'ish. First trip, shower leaked, I mean all over the floor, the slide jammed, light fixture fell from the ceiling, the in-Command system went dead for about 4 hours and there's more. The factory used 1 3/4" screws to fasten the theatre seat to the slide floor and they came out the bottom and have now scraped through the vinyl floor inside.
Our dealer has promised to fix/repair all 17 items on our list however this will be our first and last Keystone product...there are better choices out there for $56,000 (CAD).
I definitely feel your frustration. We spent right at 70,000 and had the same American made quality issues with our RV. I don't really know how to answer your comment because it seems a more and more occurring problem with American made products in general. I learned to fix it myself and move on. I sure don't feel guilty though buying a product that's not made in the US anymore. And i really should.
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Old 10-15-2020, 01:44 PM   #3
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It's gonna happen. Somebody will start building RV's in Mexico. Slower production pace and lots more inspections. Very specific build guidelines. No interpretations like the too long screw. Not paid by the piece.
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Old 10-15-2020, 02:37 PM   #4
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So disappointed with our new Cougar 26RBS. This is our 7th RV; we came out of a Rockwood Signature 36' and wanted to get something 30'ish. First trip, shower leaked, I mean all over the floor, the slide jammed, light fixture fell from the ceiling, the in-Command system went dead for about 4 hours and there's more. The factory used 1 3/4" screws to fasten the theatre seat to the slide floor and they came out the bottom and have now scraped through the vinyl floor inside.
Our dealer has promised to fix/repair all 17 items on our list however this will be our first and last Keystone product...there are better choices out there for $56,000 (CAD).

Guess you came to vent a little. If you paid $56000 CAD I am guessing you overpaid based on the US sales of that trailer or perhaps that is normal up north. Most of the same model down here go for about 35K to 39K USD. In any case, did you do a pre-delivery inspection? How thorough was it? I am sorry to hear about your issues but the entire industry is cranking out campers so quality might be expect to be a little thin. Good luck!
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:48 PM   #5
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Your dealer screwed you. It is the dealer's job to act as quality control for the manufacturer. If the dealer did their job most of those issues would have been fixed during the PDI and before you showed up for the walk thru.
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Old 10-15-2020, 03:56 PM   #6
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Your dealer screwed you. It is the dealer's job to act as quality control for the manufacturer. If the dealer did their job most of those issues would have been fixed during the PDI and before you showed up for the walk thru.

Believe the PDI is the customer walk through. A dealer's service department SHOULD go through the trailer but since so many little niggly items seem to get caught in a new owner's PDI, guessing the service department didn't take a look and am curious if the TDI dad did a PDI himself.
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Old 10-15-2020, 04:27 PM   #7
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To clear up any confusion:

PDI- PRE delivery inspection. Should be done by the service department before the customer takes possession. It is a cost, paid by the CUSTOMER, not the factory. Issues “found at” the PDI should be addressed by the dealer, and warranty claim filed for parts/labor.

Walk Through- the customer arrives and is shown the unit, demonstrating all systems operational. It is the CUSTOMER’s responsibility to inspect and verify everything is in working condition. Upon delivery the customer will sign a form that states they have been shown everything is in working order, and that form has the technician’s name. That form is sent to the factory as the “warranty start”.

If the customer finds problems at the walk through, they should note it, have it noted on a repair order and if possible take pics with date/time stamp.

With this in mind, you will find some dealerships are more “judicious” in how they handle the whole process.
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Old 10-15-2020, 05:54 PM   #8
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Chuck is on the money. I think the confusion comes with both activities being termed "PDI". The dealerships (some) do a pre delivery inspection when the unit comes in to find those factory defects as they are supposed to - some don't. My dealer completes a sheet with everything found - I ask to see it. Then the confusion sets in;

PDI vs Walk thru - PRE delivery inspection vs walk thru. Some places want you to do the "walk thru" after the papers are signed - a no go for me, and is actually a "post" delivery inspection since you then own it....and their incentive to take care of you has lost its luster.

So for us, we have TWO PDIs; one the dealer does when they do their inspection of that new trailer on the lot and take care of the issues then MY PDI which I do before I sign a purchase agreement; I will say at that point I've verbally agreed to buy it if everything is right. When they say the 2nd list of items is repaired I go visit again to verify. If they did a good job on the initial PDI the 2nd isn't very big and the 2nd visit doesn't take long. Then we sign and set up the pick up. On that day we do the Walk Thru to familiarize us on anything we might not know - this one took maybe 30-40 minutes.

Yes, it sounds like I'm a PITA, and I am - I was just told that yesterday....with a smile. As I told them; it's my money, my trailer and I'm a nitpicker....and they know that very well.
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Old 10-16-2020, 05:05 AM   #9
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I totally agree that a PDI is essential in buying a rv. I also understand the companies pushing out rv's for the consumer demand. The frustration we've found is in the plain old attention to detail that should be used when building something. I was asked about what companies should do and my response was build a product better instead of throwing one together for the sake of more sales. I keep hearing people say the companies can't keep up with production but every rv dealer I have passed from Arizona to Texas has hundreds of RV's. A lot of items you can't see in a PDI no matter how diligent you are. Oversize electrical outlets that the plug falls out, windows that have been cut out by workers that know there to big but do it anyway. Most of our problems were caused by shoddy American work plain and simple. I also find the majority of most dealerships have excellent techs to fix the many problems they are facing on a daily basis.
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:07 AM   #10
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I won't excuse poor workmanship. But, we have heard that the RV market is booming. A friend went looking last week to get his 1st TT. He said lots are mostly bare. One salesman in Portland told him, they normal sell about 40 units each summer month and have been selling 140 or more this last summer.
With the pressure to build, move and sell faster than normal times. I suspect more issues and new buyer complaints will showing up on here.
I did spend some time on the web looking at new and used for sale in the Boise area and found hardly anything listed, a lot of coming soon adds next to stock photos.
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:26 AM   #11
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I actually paid just under 44K (CAD) but the regular dealer listed price for this make/model is 56K. We did the PDI with a dealer rep, took approx. 90 min. Everything started to go south on our first outing.
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Old 10-16-2020, 06:42 AM   #12
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I actually paid just under 44K (CAD) but the regular dealer listed price for this make/model is 56K. We did the PDI with a dealer rep, took approx. 90 min. Everything started to go south on our first outing.
My last PDI, admittedly was in 2013, the first 90 minutes was spent under the trailer. Total time from start (0800 when the dealership opened) to finish (1800 when I finished inspecting the last repaired item) was roughly 10 hours. We signed the documents and mortgage after that. If I remember correctly, it was almost 9PM when we towed the trailer off the dealer's lot.

Extreme ??? That's a judgement call, but I'll say that my trailer was only back to the dealership twice. Once to replace the remote control receiver and once to replace the rooftop air conditioner unit, both of which failed in the first year. Otherwise, any problems were minor during the first 5 years of ownership.

We did "lose a tire/wheel" last year after towing the trailer cross country several times. As far as I can tell, the retaining cotter pin sheared, allowing the retainer nut to back off the spindle threads. I can't say it wasn't my own fault, but we had just returned from an 8,000 mile trip to California and towed over some of the most terrible roads (I-70 in west Colorado) that I've seen in 50 years of towing trailers. So, was it the rough roads or was it cotter pin failure or was it something else ???

Anyway, my point is that a 90 minute PDI is "woefully inadequate" to inspect any modern trailer other than a "quick superficial look-see"....
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Old 10-16-2020, 07:14 AM   #13
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Maybe I’m just too used to minor things happening as we bounce these things down the road. When i read through the OPs complaint I see a few things, shower head, not made by Keystone, probably the same head used by 75% of RV manufacturers and apparently didn’t leak during PDI, I chalk that up to “things happen”. Light fixture fell off, ok, maybe it wasn’t completely tight. Also not noticed on PDI, but I can tell you screws in my ceiling fan fell out after 7 years and 20,000+ miles. Guess they came loose from bouncing down the highways. Could have happened at any time. Not my fault or anyone else’s, unless i want to blame myself for not checking everY screw on every trip. Slide jammed, I guess it happens. I’ve seen slides from other manufacturers jam, break, leak etc. Screws scratching floor. To be honest, don’t know how or what went wrong there, but I can promise you that is not a common problem and Keystone is not replacing the floor in every RV they build because they’re using screws that are too long. Was that the same slide that jammed? Could it have been caused by something being out of alignment causing both problems. Ive owned RVs for 20 years, different brands, and have been selling them for 3. I don’t see anything today that would tell me that Keystone is not a quality product compared to anything else on the road today. In fact, it’s quite the opposite. The things I’ve seen and stories I’ve heard from people trading in brand X is amazing.
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Old 10-16-2020, 12:41 PM   #14
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Purebred,I might ask, the American quality that you’re talking about is in reference to RV’s manufactured in Mexico, Canada, the British west Indies, or India? If you have ever visited a plant, or in assembly location, you would know that these are not union represented employees, and they work hard hard. I am curious to know what product you are comparing your RV to when you say that it is poor workmanship. If these employees made the same wages that are paid in Detroit you and your family would still be tent camping. My wife and I have visited two assembly plants, one the Mobile suites plant and two, the Montana plant. At no time did we see anyone sloughing off or taking life easy, believe me. Better that you should suck it up a little bit, fix a few things your self, and get on with enjoying your RV.
Edited to show the proper addressee...
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Old 10-16-2020, 01:38 PM   #15
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Wrong person ?

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TDIdad, I might ask, the American quality that you’re talking about is in reference to RV’s manufactured in Mexico, Canada, the British west Indies, or India? If you have ever visited a plant, or in assembly location, you would know that these are not union represented employees, and they work hard hard. I am curious to know what product you are comparing your RV to when you say that it is poor workmanship. If these employees made the same wages that are paid in Detroit you and your family would still be tent camping. My wife and I have visited two assembly plants, one the Mobile suites plant and two, the Montana plant. At no time did we see anyone sloughing off or taking life easy, believe me. Better that you should suck it up a little bit, fix a few things your self, and get on with enjoying your RV.
I believe Sir your comment should be directed at me rather then TDIdad. I don't see any comment he made about American quality. In fact it was me that made the comment and I stick by it. Also no comments were made about RV plants in various countries by me. Confused by your comments. My comment was aimed at the quality of RV's produced by Keystone's attempt to keep up with demand. When I see items that were assembled in just get it out the door attitudes it does reflect on Americans assembling these products plain and simple. I also stated I did in fact repair what in fact pops up and i repair myself.
And in fact I do suck it up and fix what I can. Just trying to keep the context of this post started by TDIdad corrrect and accurate.
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Old 10-16-2020, 01:52 PM   #16
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I totally agree that a PDI is essential in buying a rv. I also understand the companies pushing out rv's for the consumer demand. The frustration we've found is in the plain old attention to detail that should be used when building something. I was asked about what companies should do and my response was build a product better instead of throwing one together for the sake of more sales. I keep hearing people say the companies can't keep up with production but every rv dealer I have passed from Arizona to Texas has hundreds of RV's. A lot of items you can't see in a PDI no matter how diligent you are. Oversize electrical outlets that the plug falls out, windows that have been cut out by workers that know there to big but do it anyway. Most of our problems were caused by shoddy American work plain and simple. I also find the majority of most dealerships have excellent techs to fix the many problems they are facing on a daily basis.


I'm not sure where you travel from AZ to TX but in my TX world the inventories are down to bare nubbins. In fact, reconfirmed with the dealer 2 days ago they are still moving every trade in they get to the main lot so it will look like they have inventory...and they have some used ones but the new inventory is down I think he said 70+%. It was that way across the S going to/from FL May-Aug and I'm sure it will be that way when we leave in 10 days. Nothing has changed. There was a good article by the editor in the Nov. Trailer Life that touched on the problem - and it's not going away soon......unless those folks throwing those RVs out the door....throw a lot more of them.


As far as the "quality" of the work, the workmanship tainting the the Americans doing it etc. Maybe, maybe one should put a little thought into that and think - we're in a pandemic; folks are scared to travel and do anything; not doing so means the family is stuck; millions have decided to go to an RV for help; the RV industry is caught by surprise and orders are drowning them; those American "bums" throwing out that "shoddy" product might, just might be, trying to put as many of them out as they can to HELP all those folks that are scared and trying to find a way back to normalcy??

RVs are RVs. Have been and always will be as long as people keep buying them like hotcakes. Most folks deal with it and understand the situation - I do. Although I'm not happy about some of the things on my new trailer I'm not taking shots at those folks doing what they do - or are told to do. It is what it is and I deal with it.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:05 PM   #17
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I'm not sure where you travel from AZ to TX but in my TX world the inventories are down to bare nubbins. In fact, reconfirmed with the dealer 2 days ago they are still moving every trade in they get to the main lot so it will look like they have inventory...and they have some used ones but the new inventory is down I think he said 70+%. It was that way across the S going to/from FL May-Aug and I'm sure it will be that way when we leave in 10 days. Nothing has changed. There was a good article by the editor in the Nov. Trailer Life that touched on the problem - and it's not going away soon......unless those folks throwing those RVs out the door....throw a lot more of them.


As far as the "quality" of the work, the workmanship tainting the the Americans doing it etc. Maybe, maybe one should put a little thought into that and think - we're in a pandemic; folks are scared to travel and do anything; not doing so means the family is stuck; millions have decided to go to an RV for help; the RV industry is caught by surprise and orders are drowning them; those American "bums" throwing out that "shoddy" product might, just might be, trying to put as many of them out as they can to HELP all those folks that are scared and trying to find a way back to normalcy??

RVs are RVs. Have been and always will be as long as people keep buying them like hotcakes. Most folks deal with it and understand the situation - I do. Although I'm not happy about some of the things on my new trailer I'm not taking shots at those folks doing what they do - or are told to do. It is what it is and I deal with it.
I don't know about each particular model of RV we spotted in RV sales lots. I didn't stop and take an inventory of them. It appeared on all major RV dealers lots we passed that they had good inventories. I don't make a habit and stop at each RV dealer and ask what they have. Also our RV was purchased way before the so called pandemic so that excuse doesn't pan out with me. Maybe you. Plus don't put words in my mouth by calling Americans BUMS. I spent 8 years serving my country and I don't consider any American a BUM. I just appreciate good American quality which it seems is sliding in a lot of industry.
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Old 10-16-2020, 04:38 PM   #18
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I don't know about each particular model of RV we spotted in RV sales lots. I didn't stop and take an inventory of them. It appeared on all major RV dealers lots we passed that they had good inventories. I don't make a habit and stop at each RV dealer and ask what they have. Also our RV was purchased way before the so called pandemic so that excuse doesn't pan out with me. Maybe you. Plus don't put words in my mouth by calling Americans BUMS. I spent 8 years serving my country and I don't consider any American a BUM. I just appreciate good American quality which it seems is sliding in a lot of industry.

You didn't say "bums", your words, IMO implied it (when I see items assembled in a just get it out the door attitude it does reflect on the Americans assembling these products plain and simple)...not trying to put words in your mouth. "Bums" was my word for what I got out of your statement - Americans willing to assemble a product with a get it out the door attitude for you to then buy. I'm sure you have a different, better, word for it but you certainly weren't patting them on the back. And, I don't think anyone should be given the circumstances and environment (except maybe the CEO as they rake in millions). Just an observation that the folks building your RV are doing what they are supposed to do, what every other RV builder is doing. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that what they put out is a bad reflection for those Americans doing it....and others are entitled to theirs - and I've voiced it.
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Old 10-16-2020, 04:48 PM   #19
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You didn't say "bums", your words, IMO implied it (when I see items assembled in a just get it out the door attitude it does reflect on the Americans assembling these products plain and simple)...not trying to put words in your mouth. "Bums" was my word for what I got out of your statement - Americans willing to assemble a product with a get it out the door attitude for you to then buy. I'm sure you have a different, better, word for it but you certainly weren't patting them on the back. And, I don't think anyone should be given the circumstances and environment (except maybe the CEO as they rake in millions). Just an observation that the folks building your RV are doing what they are supposed to do, what every other RV builder is doing. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that what they put out is a bad reflection for those Americans doing it....and others are entitled to theirs - and I've voiced it.
You're entitled to your opinion but by all means keep it honest with what others say and not what you perceive.
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Old 10-16-2020, 08:34 PM   #20
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Well, I work at an RV dealership in NM right on I-10 between AZ and TX. Our lot typically has about 200 RVs on it, were sitting at just over 50 right now, that’s up from 40 last month. We have moved every RV we have to the front line so it looks like we have a lot of inventory from the highway, but the entire lot is empty behind them. As for used inventory, we have moved both of them to the front with the new ones.
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