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Old 03-07-2021, 01:15 PM   #1
RedBull
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5th wheel towing question

Hello everyone,
I'm a newbie but I've been lurking on here for a while, tons of great people and info here. I'm plaining on purchasing our first fifth wheel soon, we decided on Cougar Half-Ton 32BHS. The unit is 9,580 lb. dry and 11,500 GVWR, the pin weight is at around 1,570 lb. unloaded according to the manufacture specs. I have 2021 Ram 2500 Tradesman 6.4L 3.73 short bed with payload 3,030 lb. We will travel with 2 adults and 2 small kids. On paper it seems like I won't have a problem pulling the Cougar if I keep the truck payload to minimum, however, I would like to hear from people who actually have some experience with towing maybe similar set up. I just want to be 100% sure before we pull the trigger.
Thanks in advance.
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Old 03-07-2021, 01:22 PM   #2
tech740
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You will most likely go over your payload. I know it seems unlikely but 23% of 11,500 is 2,645. Add a couple hundred for a hitch, more for cargo in the truck and weight of occupants, and you will get to your number quick.
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Old 03-07-2021, 01:34 PM   #3
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We have a 2014 Cougar XLite fifth wheel with an "advertised pin weight" of 1230 pounds. The trailer GVW is 10,000 pounds and "empty weight" is 7045. I've never seen the "empty trailer" weigh less than 7500 and never seen the pin weight less than 1530 pounds. We typically run about 9600 pounds with a pin in the 1850 range.

We had a 2013 F250 with a 6.2L gas engine and around a 3100 pound payload. We were "always comfortably under the payload" but there are two of us and no "kid cargo" (bikes, trikes, etc) that will only grow heavier (motorbikes, friend's motorbike, etc) as the years pass.....

You may be ok when they're preschool, but in the following years, as they grow, so will the cargo weight.

Watch what you put in the trailer, what you put in the truck and on the first trip, stop by a CAT scale and get a "real world weight" so you know for sure where you stand... Not much is worse than being involved in an accident as having a LEO ask how much your truck is licensed to carry as he looks at the front data plate on your trailer......
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Old 03-07-2021, 02:55 PM   #4
sourdough
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I can tell you it's too much trailer. Your 6.4 and 3.73 will not like it one bit. My 3/4 ton, 6.4, SB 3.73 had a TT, not 5th wheel, that scaled up to 9500 (10k gvw). It did OK on mountains but had to hit 3500rpm at times pulling our local 19mi. 6% grade. That combo KNEW it was back there.

You're looking at a much heavier trailer AND the frontal area of that 5th vs the lower front of a TT. Weights have been talked about. Mine had a payload of 3190 if I recall (maybe 3090?). I felt I was cutting it close and it's just the two of us. You have to take "stuff" to go camping that will be in the truck. Then you will have to take "stuff" for the kids. That stuff for the kids will just turn into more and more and bigger and bigger.

I'd look at a trailer in the 10k gvw range - max. The kids are going to bring a lot of weight with the various items they require. If not, heck just jump to a 1 ton and don't worry. Truck is new? Ha! No worries, you'll get a good trade in! Done it many times. PLUS, you won't be worrying about leaving that bag of peanuts at home so you don't exceed payload!
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Old 03-08-2021, 06:41 AM   #5
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Thanks guys, good and valid points. It seems that our dream camper is too fat to handle for my truck. It is a bummer since we really like it. Oh well, we gotta figure out what to do now....
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Old 03-08-2021, 08:30 AM   #6
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When shopping RVs the numbers you should be concerned with are YOUR trucks payload & 23% (13% for a TT) of the chosen RVs GVWR posted on the front corner + whatever else is in/on your truck.
The dry weight & any number published with it are useless to you, as is the max tow rating for your truck.
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:30 AM   #7
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So technically speaking any Ram 2500 is useless for 5th wheel towing cause most of them have payload at around 3000 or less (diesel) even tho they come with 5th wheel prep package, just like mine did.
I should've known that right from the start and just buy 3500. Ugh..
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Old 03-08-2021, 09:57 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedBull View Post
So technically speaking any Ram 2500 is useless for 5th wheel towing cause most of them have payload at around 3000 or less (diesel) even tho they come with 5th wheel prep package, just like mine did.
I should've known that right from the start and just buy 3500. Ugh..
No, not at all. That trailer would probably work if you aren't carrying all 2200 lbs of cargo, or you went with a slightly smaller 5th wheel, in the 10k range. If you watch and are careful with what you put in there you may not ever be close to 11,500 and would thus be ok. Remember, the cargo carrying on that 5er is over a ton. That is a huge number for a non full timer. I weighed my stuff once and we had just over 800 lbs of items in the trailer. So for that trailer my weight would be just over 10,000, and wouldn't be close to being overloaded. Perhaps weigh out everything you intend to bring? Pots, pans, chairs, linens, etc. See where that takes you?
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Old 03-08-2021, 10:01 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by RedBull View Post
So technically speaking any Ram 2500 is useless for 5th wheel towing cause most of them have payload at around 3000 or less (diesel) even tho they come with 5th wheel prep package, just like mine did.
I should've known that right from the start and just buy 3500. Ugh..
Most of the 3/4 ton diesels have a payload capacity of 2500 or less with some in the 1900 or less category.

Trucks are "built for specific jobs" and not all trucks in a category are appropriate for every task that line can do... Case in point, the payload range for 2021 RAM 2500 series trucks ranges from a RAM 2500 regular cab 4x2 with a payload of 4380 to a RAM 2500 megacab 4x4 Limited diesel with a payload of 1640. Then there's the 2500 Power Wagon 6.4 with a payload of 1420....

The "problem" (if you call it that) with the 2500/250 series from any manufacturer is the "regulatory imposed 10,000 GVW. Many people will say the 2500/250 is the same truck as the 3500/350. That's an entirely different argument. That said, a similarly optioned truck that weighs 7800 pounds with a GVW of 10000 will have a payload of 2200 pounds. That same weight truck with a GVW of 11500 pounds will have a payload of 3700 pounds.

The "rub" is: whether they are the same truck or not, from a towing perspective, one is significantly more capable than the other... Whether it's "paperwork capability" or "functional capability"... That's up to each owner to determine "their own limits of responsibility"...

But, back to the trucks, some people will NEVER tow a fifth wheel, use their truck to carry 1000 pounds of equipment for their profession and don't want to pay even $300 extra for a truck that is "overbuilt for their needs"... So, every manufacturer builds a truck that competes for their needs.... Every manufacturer also builds a truck for the needs of a fifth wheel owner, but they aren't the "same build truck".... Just as some people want a Big Mac and other's just want a regular hamburger... Depending on what you need, you order what fits your needs.... The issue is that with trucks, few people "learn about those optional builds and individual needs until it's too late"....

Then there's the salesmen: "Sure, we've got just the truck you need. See that 2500 out there? It'll tow anything you hitch behind it"..... Sales pitches catch more "uninformed buyers" by the shorts than you'd imagine... If you read through this forum alone, there's probabaly 50 or 60 recent threads that complain about exactly the same "limited payload in 3/4 ton trucks" and all (or almost all) of them were created by owners who bought a "TRUCK" thinking "all trucks are heavy duty and can do anything".... Then, when they start "digging into the specifications" realize the answer is, "Nope, all trucks aren't the same when it comes to design or capability".....
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Old 03-08-2021, 11:25 AM   #10
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Yep, all good advice here folks, thank you.
Before I bought my truck I actually did some math and figured that my trailer needs to be no more than 11K fully loaded in order to be safe for towing. I've been also told that the pin weight will be somewhere around 15-20% of the total trailer weight, so worse case scenario, if I ever load my trailer to the max, I will have around 1000 lb. to spare for the occupants and any extra cargo on my truck. It seemed doable with the Ram 2500 for sure. But I guess I was wrong.
I know that the trailer's GVWR we wanted to buy is at 11500, but 500 more was still within the max towing capacity of my truck which is 14950 for 5th wheel and 500 lb. extra will add roughly 100lb. to the pin weight if that's the case. So I figured with some lightweight aluminum Andersen Hitch I would still have plenty of weight room for 4 of us and some cooler in the truck.
Bottom line, we can't have the camper we wanted, and to be honest I probably wouldn't feel comfortable towing any 5th wheel with this truck due its low payload.
After all having RV should be fun, but not stressful experience, at least as far as towing goes LOL...BTW, I know how those are made these days....so I do realize that I will be fixing it all the time.... I'm pretty handy so that doesn't scare me much
We will probably settle for TT since we want separate bunk room for the boys and I don't think we will find anything light enough in 5th wheel category that has that option.
Now, trading my brand new truck (330 mil on ODO) would be another option, but I would probably get a big hit on the trade, plus the 2500 probably rides better than the 3500.
Decisions, decisions!
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Old 03-08-2021, 12:56 PM   #11
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Well....how well do you know your truck dealer? With 330 on the odo you might have some latitude. You would take a bit of a hit but they are going to sell it very close to the price you paid, previous owner or not. Maybe knock a couple of grand off.

As far as the ride of the 2500 vs 3500 the difference is negligible. Just made that change at the end of last year. I resisted going to a HD truck (2500) for years because I had a bad back and didn't want that irritated. The 2500 of course was stiffer but not the back breaker the older 3/4-1 tons used to be. The new 1 tons are just nice.

5th wheel vs TT. Until this trailer, bought in March of last year, I had never had nor wanted a 5th wheel. We were always happy in a TT - but they did continually keep getting larger. In a given length behind a truck you will get more space in the 5th because you can use it from end to end. The TT is going to have that 4' of tongue out front which makes it longer and cuts out living space in a given length. For us the TT was fine (couple) until we started staying out for longer time frames (from 3-7mos.). It then began to feel confining. The higher ceiling makes a world of difference in the perceived "room".

The stress - BTDT. I've been a situation knowingly overweight and/or close to it. It drove me crazy, not because of any issues I was having but simply because I knew it and whatever happened could always be my fault. I made one trip in that situation and got a bigger truck. With little ones it would have just been worse. Good luck on your decisions.
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Old 03-10-2021, 02:12 PM   #12
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We had an 8 month old GMC Yukon Denali when we realized our dealer was wrong and the Yukon was not up to the task of towing our new trailer. It was painful, but we traded that Yukon in on our current truck. We lost around - oohh - it's still too soon to think about. It was a large-enough amount that it would make most people cry.

However, we have plenty of truck for our current trailer and are now thinking about going to a larger 5th-wheel trailer.

I just don't think about how much I lost on that trade-in (as you can see above)
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Old 03-10-2021, 03:28 PM   #13
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We had an 8 month old GMC Yukon Denali when we realized our dealer was wrong and the Yukon was not up to the task of towing our new trailer. It was painful, but we traded that Yukon in on our current truck. We lost around - oohh - it's still too soon to think about. It was a large-enough amount that it would make most people cry.

However, we have plenty of truck for our current trailer and are now thinking about going to a larger 5th-wheel trailer.

I just don't think about how much I lost on that trade-in (as you can see above)


^^^^ Mark, and therein lies the answer to how you get what you need/want and be happy. I am a gung ho cost/benefit person on everything but if benefit outweighs the cost then I just don't care if I decide I need to do it. Those types of decisions have seemed to always turn out fine even though at times I second guessed myself.
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Old 03-10-2021, 03:31 PM   #14
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Danny and John disagree, but I tow our Cougar 32BHS with a GMC Sierra 2500HD Gas.

My payload is 2570#. Truck tows this unit fine, and when I weighed it loaded we were around 11k with gear. I don't have slip anymore with actual pin weight.

Let the weight police tear it up if desired, but the 32BHS should be well matched to a Ram gasser with 3k of payload. You've got 500# more then me, and my truck does outstanding.
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:06 PM   #15
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Eddy, I suppose I am a member of the "weight police" and I find no need to "tear it up" in reference to your post. I would just point out a couple of things;

You have a 2570 payload. Your trailer scaled 11k. You lost the weight slip providing the pin weight. So - 11k x 21% ( which is what mine is) = 2310 lbs. That leaves you 260 lbs. for you, the family, pets etc. PLUS all the gear you must (IMO) put in the bed of your truck. Won't happen - and we didn't even talk about a 10%+ safety cushion.

Your truck may "tow" (as in pull) it just fine in your opinion but "carry" is another matter. In the case of the OP who is asking about a prospective combo that will be even heavier, and with 2 small children that will only keep growing (and carrying heavier toys), trying to ignore pin weight/payload is not a prudent option. He asked looking for (IMO) valid, safe recommendations. I didn't get the sense that he was asking "will it pull it".

Not trying to "tear it up" simply stressing that when a person is looking at a new experience (especially with little ones) and asks for recommendations it seems like it is better to steer them in a safe direction vs one that tells them "you might get by with this....I did/do". JMO
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:20 PM   #16
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Danny, Hasn't this point already been made with Mr. Davis? Seems pointless to rehash his numbers. He obviously doesn't share your concern for safety. The specific numbers have been noted for the OP so hopefully he will heed some sound advice and ignore that which isn't. Thanks for trying but I think you will just get a headache by beating your head on the wall with Mr. Davis.
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Old 03-10-2021, 04:36 PM   #17
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This entire issue generally rotates around a relatively small group of smaller, lighter weight truck owners who are getting their feelings hurt when the crowd tells them that maybe that 250-2500 or Excursion or Suburban or 'fill in the blank' isn't quite to beast that they have either been led to believe or that they are trying to tell their friends that it is. Most here have in their adult lives graduated from 150/1500 level trucks to 250/2500 or higher and thought 'Man, it doesn't get better than this.'
Because of business we have had dozens of trucks over the years, all brands, all sizes, some used, some new. Some vans and some pickups. The one truck we had that never let us down was a very old and very abused Chevy 650 or 6500 gasser that hauled most of our blasting equipment while also towing an industrial trailer with pallets of blasting material. I can't honestly tell you if it was ever driven completely legal. Men simply loaded it until everything we would need on the project was included and we headed down the road. Not one of our drivers ever stopped at a scale, and was never stopped.
However, not one of the workers would have been offended if another tradesman has said that the truck was overloaded. In all the years this truck was used and abused I'm not saying it was the safe thing to do. Just the contrary, it was not. When worrying about safety equipment, OSHA, TOSHA, IRS, ASPCA, ESPN and CBS who had time or forethought to be concerned about such trivial things. My long-winded point is that neither I nor any of my workers would have given a thought of being offended if we were told our work horse was overloaded.
In looking back with 20-20 hind site I know it was not the right thing to do. But when people in the know tell you that that truck that you love like a Beagle puppy isn't the beast you perceive, deal with it, don't try to defend it.
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Old 03-10-2021, 05:12 PM   #18
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I gave up trying to help people who don't want help. Frankly you can't fix stupid and trying to do so is, well stupid.
Maintain situational awareness and if so inclined pray that you can successfully avoid stupid for as long as possible.

They're multiply like rabbits.
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Old 03-10-2021, 05:33 PM   #19
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I'm one of "those 250/2500 owners" who bought "just what we needed and not a bit more than we needed" for the trailer we tow. It's an ultra-light 30' fifth wheel with "only 1230 pound pin and a dry weight of 7045" (I know, Danny, dry weight is totally useless)....

EVERY (did I mention every) trip we take, I'm at my F250's max GVW and payload. We regularly triple tow with either a 2200 pound bass boat or a 2600 pound flatbed/motorcycle.

We could easily tow another 2500 pounds of trailer behind the fifth wheel, but I couldn't put another 50 pounds in the truck or I'd "bust my GVW"

The only reason we don't have a significantly larger fifth wheel right now is because even though my diesel F250 can pull damn near any fifth wheel on the market, it can't carry the pin weight of anything larger than what we already have which is one of the smallest and lightest fifth wheels that Keystone makes.

It's not about passing over a weight scale and getting a total weight "to stay under the GCWR"...
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Old 03-10-2021, 05:39 PM   #20
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Danny, Hasn't this point already been made with Mr. Davis? Seems pointless to rehash his numbers. He obviously doesn't share your concern for safety. The specific numbers have been noted for the OP so hopefully he will heed some sound advice and ignore that which isn't. Thanks for trying but I think you will just get a headache by beating your head on the wall with Mr. Davis.

I agree George. My comments weren't for the benefit of Mr. Davis, only for the OP so to give some context to those sorts of recommendations.
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