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Old 03-09-2023, 09:19 AM   #21
WDPatterson
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[QUOTE=jasin1;530102]
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Originally Posted by hlh1 View Post

you would think that all generators would have a instruction label for rv vs home use as a large percent of generators are used for rvs…and provide a bonding switch to allow the generator to meet both needs
Most name brand generator manufacturers include that information in their manual. The question becomes: "How many people actually read the entire manual?"

Champion and Firman list that in their manuals. They even have it on their websites.
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Old 03-09-2023, 10:44 AM   #22
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I am looking at purchasing a WEN 2500 inverter generator. This generator has an earth ground outlet for a grounding wire to an earth ground. Is this the same function as a bonding plug? I have the same outlet tester as in the video so I will be able to test for the three amber lights. Just wondered if anyone would know the answer. Thanks!
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Old 03-09-2023, 12:30 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Mikelff View Post
I am looking at purchasing a WEN 2500 inverter generator. This generator has an earth ground outlet for a grounding wire to an earth ground. Is this the same function as a bonding plug? I have the same outlet tester as in the video so I will be able to test for the three amber lights. Just wondered if anyone would know the answer. Thanks!

Mike, I don't think so. You'll need a bonding plug to "bond" to the TT ground. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 03-09-2023, 12:42 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Mikelff View Post
I am looking at purchasing a WEN 2500 inverter generator. This generator has an earth ground outlet for a grounding wire to an earth ground. Is this the same function as a bonding plug? I have the same outlet tester as in the video so I will be able to test for the three amber lights. Just wondered if anyone would know the answer. Thanks!
If you have a ground rod, and you want to use the Ground Terminal on your generator to connect to that ground rod, I do not believe you have to use a neutral to ground bond. There is a separate neutral and ground wire in the cable going from your generator to the travel trailer. The travel trailer ground wire will go through that ground wire in the cable to your generator, and through your generator to the ground rod.

The bonded neutral is only used when you have a portable generator that is not grounded properly to a ground rod (connected with ground wire that goes deep into the ground) or a grounded Outlet box.
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Old 03-09-2023, 01:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by WDPatterson View Post
If you have a ground rod, and you want to use the Ground Terminal on your generator to connect to that ground rod, I do not believe you have to use a neutral to ground bond. There is a separate neutral and ground wire in the cable going from your generator to the travel trailer. The travel trailer ground wire will go through that ground wire in the cable to your generator, and through your generator to the ground rod.

The bonded neutral is only used when you have a portable generator that is not grounded properly to a ground rod (connected with ground wire that goes deep into the ground) or a grounded Outlet box.

edit : this is if your using a generator

you actually still NEED the neutral to ground bond or the breaker may not trip in a short to ground scenario …if you just have a dead short to the frame or just the ground side of the generator or rv in a unbonded system then the
ground rod itself is not good enough
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Old 03-09-2023, 01:09 PM   #26
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I installed a Multiquip 45kva Whisperwatt diesel generator last year for emergency power at my house. It generates 36,000 watts and is so quiet that I can stand next to it while it is running wide open and still talk in a normal voice. I also installed an automatic crossover switch that runs the generator once monthly for 30 minutes to exercise it. My house is all electric with 15,000 watts of electric heat so with an electric water heater, electric cook stove and electric everything else I will still have plenty of power. I do not like to run a generator over 75% of rated capacity anyways.

Just wanted to chime in and mention that under loading a diesel, especially a modern one, can lead to problems.

When I started in this industry, it was common for customers to purchase a larger generator than they needed, just so they could have reserve power or so that they wouldn't have to work the engine too hard.

Now, however, with Tier 4 emissions regulations, engines typically need to generate enough heat to 'burn off' particulates and keep the aftertreatment clean.

Some engines will run a 'regen' cycle to heat up & burn off, but better is when the engine simply runs hot enough to keep itself clean (passive regen). The way to do that is to work the engine hard...and to do that, it should be properly sized for the load.

I wouldn't say that 75% of rated capacity is too low, but if you never use more than that, then your genset is probably too much for it's application.
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Old 03-09-2023, 02:28 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
you actually still NEED the neutral to ground bond or the breaker may not trip in a short to ground scenario …the breakers need the neutral bond in a fault to allow current to flow back to the source (transformer on the pole) at a very rapid rate which cause the breaker to trip instantly…if you just have a dead short to the frame or just the ground side of the generator or rv in a unbonded system then the path back to the source is thru the ground….this path has a lot of resistance and may not trip the breaker so you could end up with a hot frame and can get electrocuted if you touch the frame in bare feet or the frame and some other grounded metal object.

the ground rod itself is not good enough
If you're hooked to a pull receptacle, you won't need a generator. And, that's what GFCI's are for. They handle those "quick trips".
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Old 03-09-2023, 02:37 PM   #28
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If you're hooked to a pull receptacle, you won't need a generator. And, that's what GFCI's are for. They handle those "quick trips".
my answer was based on using a generator and if a unbonded generator with a ground rod installed would be safe and sufficient..it wouldn’t ..you still need the bond at the generator

if your plugged in to a campsite pedestal then the bond SHOULD come from the campground supply power but should be verified


if i’m wrong someone correct me

i keep a non contact tester, a outlet tester and two meters in my rv tool bag
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Old 03-09-2023, 03:12 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
my answer was based on using a generator and if a unbonded generator with a ground rod installed would be safe and sufficient..it wouldn’t ..you still need the bond at the generator

if your plugged in to a campsite pedestal then the bond SHOULD come from the campground supply power but should be verified


if i’m wrong someone correct me

i keep a non contact tester, a outlet tester and two meters in my rv tool bag
This may help you better:
https://www.nfpa.org/NEC/About-the-NEC/Grounding-and-bonding
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Old 03-09-2023, 03:18 PM   #30
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thanks but i’m well versed in the grounding and bonding requirements in residential buildings
i have a 2020 nec code book sitting on the table in front of me ..and is always within reach …i’m talking about rv power systems specifically using a generator..that’s where it gets murky at times
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Old 03-09-2023, 03:27 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by jasin1 View Post
thanks but i’m well versed in the grounding and bonding requirements in residential buildings
i have a 2020 nec code book sitting on the table in front of me ..and is always within reach …i’m talking about rv power systems specifically using a generator..that’s where it gets murky for me at times
The reason for the need to bond the neutral to the ground on a generator is because the generator isn't usually grounded to anything at all. So, you have to bond neutral in order to close that circuit at the generator. If you have an external ground, something to connect the ground on the generator too, then it's not absolutely necessary. That's what your Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters are for.

As you said, you've got the building thing covered. Just remember the generators float around, and are not usually connected to a ground like a building is. So you pretty much have everything you need. Have fun!

PS - while many generator manufacturers will tell you to pull the cover, and they gave you a provision to "link" neutral to ground, inside the generator, I found that making a removable "Bond Plug" works better on the fly. That way, you can be more versatile as to whether you want it bonded or not depending on the task.

Since I'm completely off grid, I don't worry about utilities. I'm running mostly solar, with the occasional augmentation of generator on extremely cloudcast or stormy situations.
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Old 03-09-2023, 03:33 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by WDPatterson View Post
The reason for the need to bond the neutral to the ground on a generator is because the generator isn't usually grounded to anything at all. So, you have to bond neutral in order to close that circuit at the generator. If you have an external ground, something to connect the ground on the generator too, then it's not absolutely necessary. That's what your Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters are for.

As you said, you've got the building thing covered. Just remember the generators float around, and are not usually connected to a ground like a building is. So you pretty much have everything you need. Have fun!

thanks …but it’s definitely bonded generator …use a bonding plug with an rv AND you can and should use a ground rod with portable generators under certain circumstances …all circuits on an rv are not gfci protected....i’ve given myself a headache lol..oh and the neutral to ground bond is to allow the breakers to trip instantly with the closest path back to the source…all systems whether generator or utility powered get bonded only once..in a home that happens at your main service disconnect,electric panel or a automatic transfer switch if installed.

In a rv that happens on the campground utility pedestal side of the electric back at the main panel ( that is why your rv is unbonded..remember you can only bond once)

This is why you use a unbonded generator for homes most of the time and bonded generator for Rvs
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Old 03-10-2023, 04:36 AM   #33
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well that’s good about the bonding…are you able to get more then 50 amps to a transfer switch?
… i wondered how the higher wattage units would work for whole house power….but at least they wouldn’t be operating full throttle i suppose…sounds like a nice unit
Because of the large size of the generator (20Kw), there are actually TWO places to plug into and bring power to the house. Most of the larger generators have one NEMA 14-50R on the front of them. This one has TWO 14-50R as well as some others. So my setup will be all manual with no ATS. I will have two power inlets, two power cords, and then the breaker in the house panel that is for generator power in. There is a breaker lockout device that requires that the main breaker (200A) must be turned off and a lockout tab moved into position so that the generator inlet breaker can be turned on, and these are NEC code approved for usage. So until the panel Main breaker is turned off and the tab moved into position, the inlet breaker cannot be turned on. And when power comes back on from the utility company, you reverse the process.....inlet breaker off, tab moved out of the way and main breaker back on. And as part of the project, I'm also adding a module that will report to my security alarm system that main utility power has been restored....along with a Red LED located in the garage.
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Old 03-10-2023, 06:01 AM   #34
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Because of the large size of the generator (20Kw), there are actually TWO places to plug into and bring power to the house. Most of the larger generators have one NEMA 14-50R on the front of them. This one has TWO 14-50R as well as some others. So my setup will be all manual with no ATS. I will have two power inlets, two power cords, and then the breaker in the house panel that is for generator power in. There is a breaker lockout device that requires that the main breaker (200A) must be turned off and a lockout tab moved into position so that the generator inlet breaker can be turned on, and these are NEC code approved for usage. So until the panel Main breaker is turned off and the tab moved into position, the inlet breaker cannot be turned on. And when power comes back on from the utility company, you reverse the process.....inlet breaker off, tab moved out of the way and main breaker back on. And as part of the project, I'm also adding a module that will report to my security alarm system that main utility power has been restored....along with a Red LED located in the garage.

yeah i saw where it had two 50 amp outlets ..the problem is they are two separate 50 amp 240 outlets..you can’t parallel them …i can’t see how you could tie that in SAFELY to power the house..you can’t run both wires to the panel…now if you had sub panels you could do something but it gets complicated . …so your limited to one 50 amp..now you could use other cords to power things in the house but would need to have them completely disconnected from the home electric system..it just seems complicated ..i’d get a regular standby generator and an ATS …or just get a smaller generator..i love a good challenge BUT you should always consult with a licensed electrician for guidance.
...not trying to shoot your idea down just offering a suggestion since you haven’t purchased it yet
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Old 03-10-2023, 11:04 AM   #35
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thanks …but it’s definitely bonded generator …use a bonding plug with an rv AND you can and should use a ground rod …all circuits on an rv are not gfci protected....i’ve given myself a headache lol..oh and the neutral to ground bond is to allow the breakers to trip instantly with the closest path back to the source…all systems whether generator or utility powered get bonded only once..in a home that happens at your main service disconnect,electric panel or a automatic transfer switch if installed.

In a rv that happens on the campground utility pedestal side of the electric back at the main panel ( that is why your rv is unbonded..remember you can only bond once)

This is why you use a unbonded generator for homes most of the time and bonded generator for Rvs
You do not need to drive a ground rod when using a generator to power your RV. If you did need a ground rod driven, you would have to call in a request to have the area located for underground facilities before driving the rod. You might read this article: https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...nding-bonding/
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Old 03-10-2023, 11:16 AM   #36
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You do not need to drive a ground rod when using a generator to power your RV. If you did need a ground rod driven, you would have to call in a request to have the area located for underground facilities before driving the rod. You might read this article: https://www.rvtravel.com/rv-electric...nding-bonding/
yeah i only stated the grounding rod because it’s osha required depending on how you use your portable gen…( not that anyone is probably on a construction site with their rv)..i posted it a while back and the consensus is you wouldn’t be driving 8’ ground rods all over the united states and hitting underground utilitys https://www.osha.gov/sites/default/f..._generator.pdf

Rv generators are a murky area because it will work in almost any configuration except when a ems catches an unbonded situation..so people assume because it works it’s fine when in reality there are varying degrees of safety involved depending on how you connect your gen
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Old 03-20-2023, 11:21 AM   #37
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I consulted with my generator manufacturer and they offered a solution for a bonded plug. A bonded plug eliminates the use of one of my of one of my AC outlets. By using a multiple outlet short extension cord (20 amp rated) and using one of those outlets for the bonded plug, I will still have use of all my power outlets. I’ll check this out with my tester. If it works, which it should, I’ll still have use of my full generator output using both AC outlets. This is a 2500 surge watts and 2000 watt full load rating. Each outlet is rated at 15 amps. We’ll see!
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Old 03-20-2023, 12:47 PM   #38
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It works...Since most of the time I 'drive' everything to the trailer through my EMS, I don't need this as I use one for the bonding plug and one for the dogbone to the EMS. But I have decided to do something outside I use one of these with my bonding plug in it.
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Old 03-20-2023, 12:48 PM   #39
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I should add....that the pic is not exactly correct as mine is a 20A
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Old 03-20-2023, 08:21 PM   #40
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I consulted with my generator manufacturer and they offered a solution for a bonded plug. A bonded plug eliminates the use of one of my of one of my AC outlets. By using a multiple outlet short extension cord (20 amp rated) and using one of those outlets for the bonded plug, I will still have use of all my power outlets. I’ll check this out with my tester. If it works, which it should, I’ll still have use of my full generator output using both AC outlets. This is a 2500 surge watts and 2000 watt full load rating. Each outlet is rated at 15 amps. We’ll see!
That's exactly what I did, a couple of years ago, and it worked just fine. You'll be good.
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