Tow setup questions - ProPride hitch, D-rated tires, tongue weight, tire pressure.

[BubbaShoots]

I replaced my Blue Ox hitch with a WeighSafe True Tow hitch. It substantially improved my towing. I love being able to achieve perfect weight distribution each time using the WeighSafe app and making minor adjustments based on tongue weight. After using the Blue Ox I was considering a ProPride but I bought the WeighSafe. I’m completely happy with the outcome.

[Fasttimes]

Originally Posted by sourdough

It would be a mistake not to upgrade to LT tires. Don't know if you know what a Navigator is but I have about 3 of them on my block; great big boxes with cushy suspensions AND P rated tires to give that "soft" ride - exactly what you don't want when pulling a trailer. All of those factors exacerbate sway - same goes for airing down the tires on the trailer from the max psi listed on the side of the st trailer tires.

OP was concerned about sway and the effects of passing vehicles etc. "Keeping as much possible sideward distance" is not an option in many cases - when a passing semi's mirrors are about an inch from yours and your right tires are on the white stripe you don't have anywhere to go.

Back to the tires; the construction differences between an LT tire and P rated passenger tire are significant....particularly the sidewall. The added strength of the LT sidewall, inflated to maximum vs a P tire is readily apparent. All one has to do is take an unmounted, uninflated LT tire and P tire of the same size, place them side by side and push down on them...or sit on them. The difference is readily apparent AND that difference shows up in towing stability.

I'm quite aware what a Navigator is, I have an Expedition and it's the same vehicle. I'm not suggesting P rated tires, but there are better alternatives that are "Goldielox" tires such as the LTX Defenders from Michelin which came standard on Expeditions that negate the harshness of true LT tires yet are better suited to a heavy SUV and towing.


Speaking from experience with the same vehicle, true LT tires with 65-85 psi values is not needed to tow comfortably with his size trailer and hitch weight. But to each their own.

[jadatis]

https://tirepressure.com/michelin-de...-tire-pressure

In this most max 44 or 50 psi and also 80psi given, but then LT written in front.

So I assume the 44psi given is a Standard load P-tire with 36psi reference-pressure, and the 50 psi is an XL/ reinforced/ extraload with 42psi as reference-pressure.

But can be wrong about it, so those who have LTX, will they search on sidewall.
Look if LT in front or nothing. Probably no P in front of sises, as is done in Europe for personscar tires.

[KenJFerguson]

What can I say??? What an education on this topic!!

First off the overwhelming consensus is to continue to run the trailer tires at max PSI - 65lb.

Before rolling out for a short trip this week I looked at the Navigator Uniroyal tire pressures which for some reason were all 29psi although door jamb sticker recommends 35 ... never even thought to check them before our 2000-mile trip last month so ran those miles at 29 - no wonder they looked squished... I assumed the place where I just had the tire/oil etc check before leaving would have them at 35 psi. Max on the sidewall says 44 but the doorjamb says 35psi - I inflated to 36. But Fasttimes has me convinced to go up a few more pounds to 39/40 on the way home.

On the road we stopped at a CAT Weigh station and followed markcee's advice on how to weigh.
---------------------------------------- Steer Axle ---Drive Axle --- Trailer
Weight #1 - Truck only/hitch/bars -- 3180 3520 (exceeds 6500 GVWR)
Weight #2 - Both with WDH bars -- 2980 4320 4880
Weight #3 - Both without WDH bars - 2780 4640 4760

Not sure what all that means other than the WDH bars transfer some weight from the rear axle to the front axle of the Navigator.

- GaryUT - thank you for the BlueOx setup link. When we first got the trailer we spent several hours in a steamy parking lot on a hot Georgia day messing with it including reversing the head on the shaft to try to get the right height. I'll watch that to see what we can adjust for next season.

- The LT tire debate on load capacity versus ride was instructive... to solve the compromise between load and ride I thought I could stick with the passenger tires for the 90% of the time we're not towing and buy a set of D-rated LTs on wheels and swap the whole wheel out for the times we tow... crazy I know but it does eliminate the need to compromise. Then again what does the load capacity of the tire matter if we are over the load capacity of the axle??

- It was helpful to learn of both the Michelin "hybrid" LTX and the Cooper XL alternatives to LT tires although when I looked up the Michelin LTX I saw that it comes in A/T and A/S versions ... even more confusion ... is the A/S the "hybrid" and the A/T the real LT??.

- consensus on the ProPride is that it is overkill (although the total lack of used ones on the market and the reviews indicate that the current owners would vehemently disagree). I'm certainly happy to save the $3,500.

Fasttimes... read about your setup on the Expedition forum where I am a member as well. Not sure I can do the Sumo springs on the 2015 Navigator...will look into that and the sway bars and throttle body clean and tranny temp module. We often carry 2 bikes in a heavy bike rack fitted into a frame-welded hitch receiver which I'm sure reduces hitch weight. And run with all tanks empty but the garage is pretty full. Move some heavy items to the shower and others to the 2nd row of the SUV. Wife and I are 300 lb total

jadatis - the 22RBPR trailer has 2 axles - wide stance... if that helps.

Thank you all for giving us some confidence that we can improve our towing setup without buying a new tow vehicle or a super-expensive hitch.

[sourdough]

AT typically means all terrain (tread pattern). A/S - all season.

Michelin does not show an "XL" tire in your size, only the 113 load range. Discount tire shows some "XL" tires by other manufacturers (load range 117). Your tire, the 113 load range, is designated by Michelin as a Defender LTX M/S (275/55r20). My Michelin Defender LTX M/S tires have the same name but my size is LT285/60r20.

The existing tires on your vehicle should not be ran at 39-40psi at all. Go with the max of 44 until you can get them off. If you towed that trailer very far with them at 29psi and "squished" you more than likely have damaged the sidewalls...and they are the weakest part anyway. IMO that's just playing Russian roulette with your lives. Safety is not a place for compromise.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by KenJFerguson

What can I say??? What an education on this topic!!

First off the overwhelming consensus is to continue to run the trailer tires at max PSI - 65lb.

Before rolling out for a short trip this week I looked at the Navigator Uniroyal tire pressures which for some reason were all 29psi although door jamb sticker recommends 35 ... never even thought to check them before our 2000-mile trip last month so ran those miles at 29 - no wonder they looked squished... I assumed the place where I just had the tire/oil etc check before leaving would have them at 35 psi. Max on the sidewall says 44 but the doorjamb says 35psi - I inflated to 36. But Fasttimes has me convinced to go up a few more pounds to 39/40 on the way home.

On the road we stopped at a CAT Weigh station and followed markcee's advice on how to weigh.
---------------------------------------- Steer Axle ---Drive Axle --- Trailer
Weight #1 - Truck only/hitch/bars -- 3180 3520 (exceeds 6500 GVWR)
Weight #2 - Both with WDH bars -- 2980 4320 4880
Weight #3 - Both without WDH bars - 2780 4640 4760

Not sure what all that means other than the WDH bars transfer some weight from the rear axle to the front axle of the Navigator.

- GaryUT - thank you for the BlueOx setup link. When we first got the trailer we spent several hours in a steamy parking lot on a hot Georgia day messing with it including reversing the head on the shaft to try to get the right height. I'll watch that to see what we can adjust for next season.

- The LT tire debate on load capacity versus ride was instructive... to solve the compromise between load and ride I thought I could stick with the passenger tires for the 90% of the time we're not towing and buy a set of D-rated LTs on wheels and swap the whole wheel out for the times we tow... crazy I know but it does eliminate the need to compromise. Then again what does the load capacity of the tire matter if we are over the load capacity of the axle??

- It was helpful to learn of both the Michelin "hybrid" LTX and the Cooper XL alternatives to LT tires although when I looked up the Michelin LTX I saw that it comes in A/T and A/S versions ... even more confusion ... is the A/S the "hybrid" and the A/T the real LT??.

- consensus on the ProPride is that it is overkill (although the total lack of used ones on the market and the reviews indicate that the current owners would vehemently disagree). I'm certainly happy to save the $3,500.

Fasttimes... read about your setup on the Expedition forum where I am a member as well. Not sure I can do the Sumo springs on the 2015 Navigator...will look into that and the sway bars and throttle body clean and tranny temp module. We often carry 2 bikes in a heavy bike rack fitted into a frame-welded hitch receiver which I'm sure reduces hitch weight. And run with all tanks empty but the garage is pretty full. Move some heavy items to the shower and others to the 2nd row of the SUV. Wife and I are 300 lb total

jadatis - the 22RBPR trailer has 2 axles - wide stance... if that helps.

Thank you all for giving us some confidence that we can improve our towing setup without buying a new tow vehicle or a super-expensive hitch.

Also 2 bikes on the rear hitch most likely reduced your tongue weight a couple ounces.
Add a 100lbs onto that hitch does NOT reduce the tongue weight an equal 100lbs. I'm not a physics major, but 10' of rv in front of the axle & 6' behind is like the bigger kid on one end of the teeter toter.

[markcee]

Originally Posted by KenJFerguson

What can I say??? What an education on this topic!!

First off the overwhelming consensus is to continue to run the trailer tires at max PSI - 65lb.

Before rolling out for a short trip this week I looked at the Navigator Uniroyal tire pressures which for some reason were all 29psi although door jamb sticker recommends 35 ... never even thought to check them before our 2000-mile trip last month so ran those miles at 29 - no wonder they looked squished... I assumed the place where I just had the tire/oil etc check before leaving would have them at 35 psi. Max on the sidewall says 44 but the doorjamb says 35psi - I inflated to 36. But Fasttimes has me convinced to go up a few more pounds to 39/40 on the way home.

On the road we stopped at a CAT Weigh station and followed markcee's advice on how to weigh.
---------------------------------------- Steer Axle ---Drive Axle --- Trailer
Weight #1 - Truck only/hitch/bars -- 3180 3520 (exceeds 6500 GVWR)
Weight #2 - Both with WDH bars -- 2980 4320 4880
Weight #3 - Both without WDH bars - 2780 4640 4760

Not sure what all that means other than the WDH bars transfer some weight from the rear axle to the front axle of the Navigator.

Plugging your info in here indicates a trailer weight of 5,480 lbs and a TW of 720 (13.2%). What does the underside of the SUV's hitch receiver indicate the capacity is?

That Navi must have a miniscule amount of payload capacity, or you had that thing packed to the gills. You were 200 lbs over GVWR before you even hooked up!

[jadatis]

Not in the mood for a full report today., and trailerweigh and tongeweight already given.

But mayby you can shift some load from TV to TT, to get everything within the leagal limmits.
Can you also give GAWR's of TV and TT?
Most likely you are not only overloading the GVWR of TV, but also GAWR behind.

[jadatis]

Your TV' s GVWR is 7539lbs, so I added up curb weight and loading capacity.
You mentioned in last post 6500lbs so overloaded.
But 6500lbs is GVWR of TT, as you gave in opening post.
So yust no overloading of GVWR if TV, but mayby GAWR overloaded.
Weigt TV no TT atached 6700lbs
Weight TV with TT and WDH 7300lbs

[jadatis]

Made pressure/axleload list for the uniroyal TV tires 2535lbs AT 36 psi upto 99mph using 90 % of loadcapacity for the pressure.
Determined that to give max reserve with still acceptable comfort and gripp.
So dont add reserves or devide by 2 yourselfes, all done for you.
Found XL in LI 117 so the 113 is a standard load.

If you give sizes of TT tires, I can make a list fir those. Hace ti do more research for them, because ST.

Psi cold/ axleload
20 psi / 2708 lbs
21 psi / 2825 lbs
22 psi / 2943 lbs
23 psi / 3060 lbs
24 psi / 3177 lbs
25 psi / 3293 lbs
26 psi / 3410 lbs
27 psi / 3526 lbs
28 psi / 3642 lbs
29 psi / 3758 lbs
30 psi / 3873 lbs
31 psi / 3988 lbs
32 psi / 4104 lbs
33 psi / 4219 lbs
34 psi / 4333 lbs
35 psi / 4448 lbs
36 psi / 4563 lbs/referencepressure
37 psi / 4677 lbs
38 psi / 4791 lbs
39 psi / 4905 lbs
40 psi / 5019 lbs
41 psi / 5133 lbs
42 psi / 5246 lbs
43 psi / 5360 lbs
44 psi / 5473 lbs
45 psi / 5586 lbs
46 psi / 5699 lbs
47 psi / 5812 lbs
48 psi / 5925 lbs
49 psi / 6038 lbs
50 psi / 6150 lbs
51 psi / 6263 lbs

[Tireman9]

Tire info comments from a tire engineer.

TV Tire size, type and inflation should go by the Certification Sticker on the driver door jam. This was established by a team of tire and vehicle suspension engineers over a period of two to 4 years with numerous changes and tests run on different specification and performance parameters that were fine-tuned to meet the goals of the vehicle design team. The sticker provides a recommended inflation that normally delivers 30 to 35% Reserve Load so those numbers should be followed unless you have done a lot of research and understand the trade-offs. Do not forget that few people in the tire store have technical training beyond how to sell tires so I would not rely on their input.


TT Tires for almost all RV trailers have a single spec. That being Low Cost. I have never heard of any vehicle testing or evaluation that compares different tire constructions or ratings. To achieve low cost the tire that just meets the minimum load capacity specification needed to support the RV is selected. This results in a 10% reserve load capacity specified since 2017 by RVIA and is only achieved if the tire is inflated to the sticker inflation level.
Those of you that have bothered to read the owner's manual and reviewed the Certification sticker information and the Load and Inflation information molded on the tire sidewall may have noted that you can only achieve the tire's 10% Reserve Load capacity when inflated to the level required for the maximum load capacity.
Yes this basically means you must run the max inflation for the tire's Load Range if you want to have the minimum margin of Reserve Load recommended by the RV Industry association.

RELATED INFO. The words "Max Inflation" on the tire sidewall is NOT the highest inflation the tire can tolerate, but is the highest inflation that will provide the greatest load capacity of that tire. The published Load & Inflation tables show the direct relationship between inflation and load capacity. If you want to increase load capacity you MUST increase the inflation. BUT once you reach the stated "Max Cold Inflation" there is no further increase in load capacity available for that tire, even if you increase the inflation above the number molded on the tire sidewall.

The letters before the numbers in the tire size is critical and important but too often people seem to ignore that important info. The P is for passenger, LT is Light Truck, and ST is Special Trailer. ST should only be used on trailers and are not approved for use on passenger carrying motor vehicles. if a P type is applied to a trailer its load capacity is to be reduced by dividing by 1.10 of the load capacity stated on the tire or in the Load & Inflation tables. If an LT tire is applied to a trailer no reduction in load capacity is required.

Hope this helps.

[notanlines]

At risk of being rude, okay, admittedly rude, do you two not see that the rendering businesses are backed up from y'all beating this dead horse?

[Tireman9]

Originally Posted by KenJFerguson

What can I say??? What an education on this topic!!.

snip

(------------------ Steer Axle ---Drive Axle --- Trailer
Weight #1 - Truck only/hitch/bars -- 3180 3520 (exceeds 6500 GVWR)
Weight #2 - Both with WDH bars -- 2980 4320 4880
Weight #3 - Both without WDH bars - 2780 4640 4760)


My response

I am assuming the "Trailer" scale was for the 4 tires on RV. If so it sounds like the trailer was empty when you did the weighing.






snip

(- It was helpful to learn of both the Michelin "hybrid" LTX and the Cooper XL alternatives to LT tires although when I looked up the Michelin LTX I saw that it comes in A/T and A/S versions ... even more confusion ... is the A/S the "hybrid" and the A/T the real LT??.)


My response
I'm not sure what you mean by "Hybrid". Michelin has a "line" of tires it calls "LTX" this includes both passenger type and LT type tires.


Think of this as with General Motors who has a "line" of cars called Chevrolet with many type vehicles from sedans to SUV and pickups.


In my post I covered the 3 basic families of consumer tires Passenger, Light Truck and Special Trailer. Each "family" has many different sizes and many different tread patterns like the A/T that is a traction tread pattern and the A/S which is All Season and provides less off road or snow traction.
There are also within each family different levels of Load Capacity.


P type "family" tires come in "Standard Load" that has no special markings and also XL for Extra Load.


LT and ST "families" have greater load capacities so they have letters assigned to the "Load Range" or LR of short with the different LR having letters starting at C, D, E and on up in some brands. Each letter has a specific maximum load capacity at a specific inflation and the load capacity is published in tables available in some owner's manuals or tire data books or even on the Internet as seen HERE.


All the above applies to tires made to US Tire & Rim Association standards. Europe has some similar but different standards with different codes. So do tire made to the standards in Asia. I will not go into those standards as I probably have overloaded you with the above.



snip

[KenJFerguson]

Thank you all for the insights! The trailer is parked, winterized, and covered for the season.

Based on weighing at the CAT scale with the instructions from markcee and the webpage where he plugged it all in I'm feeling somewhat OK after seeing the calculations albeit tight.

Truck loaded: 6710 GVWR: 7500
Camper weight: 5470 Max Trailering Capacity with WDH: 9000
Tongue weight: 720 Max Tongue Weight with WDH: 900
Gross Combined Weight: 12180 Gross Combined Weight Rating: 15100
Front axle with WDH: 2980 FAWR: 3350
Rear axle with WDH: 4320 RAWR: 4300

Will tweak the BlueOx per GaryUT and stiffen the suspension per Fasttimes' ideas.

Synthesizing the conversation on LT vs Passenger vs XL and ride vs safety it sounds like getting the best of both worlds requires 2 sets of tires... a daily and an LT towing. Mmm... time and money.

I'll update what I decide and it works out when I hook up again in the spring.

[pawpaw]

Best thing I've done to my Expedition is go to a 10 ply BFG KO2 tire. Run 42 psi cold for daily use and up them to 60 psi when towing. Stiffer sidewalls really help with the independent rear suspension causing some sway with or without the trailer hooked up. These tall SUV's really take big hits from strong sidewinds towing or not. Michelin Primacy P rated tires came with the vehicle and I prefer the heavier BFG's for all around use. These newer vehicles with electric power steering and now with IRS take some getting use to. The Expedition has lot's of engine power and the brakes seem to be doing a good job at stopping the rig with the camper hooked up. Just the wife and I so we pack light in the Expy and in the camper. Have a 1769 lb payload and the max towing option rated at 9200 lbs. Using a 4 point Equalizer WDH and could probably be tweaked some more to throw a little more weight to the front axle. If I keep speeds in the 60 to 62 mph range she's been towing great. Downsized from a 41' GD Solitude and a F350 DRW diesel that was like a match made in Heaven!!

[KenJFerguson]

Paw Paw, exactly which BFG KO2 model and size did you buy? I see many7 variations on their product page... and what size were the Michelin's you replaced... I have factory 275/55R20 113h All-season on the Navigator.