Filling generator gas tank

[Jim27]

My Raptor is 13’6” high and although I haven’t fueled up yet while connected I plan on fueling up at truck stops. Also having an EFS diesel card doesn’t hurt. My question is what is my best bet for filling my generator and toy tanks with gasoline? Since truck lanes don’t have gasoline what are my options? I would like to avoid regular gas stations considering the size of my toy hauler. Any advice?

[wiredgeorge]

Why not carry 5 gallon cans; fill up your diesel, pull to the side and walk over to a gas pump?

[notanlines]

Jim, there is a number of the larger truck stops that have RV lanes; Pilot, Flying J, Travel Centers of America, and Rip Griffin Travel Centers to name a few. Probably more, but none come to mind.

[xrated]

Originally Posted by notanlines

Jim, there is a number of the larger truck stops that have RV lanes; Pilot, Flying J, Travel Centers of America, and Rip Griffin Travel Centers to name a few. Probably more, but none come to mind.

And just to clarify to the OP....what he is saying is that the RV lanes at a truck stop will have gasoline and there should be plenty of room since they are there for gas powered RVs.

[Getn off]

I did not know this either. Never seen one, but honestly haven’t looked. Gonna keep my eye open next trip.
The 5 gal cans idea really sucks as mine holds 50 gals...
Troy

[Jim27]

Great guys, thanks for the info!

[notanlines]

And to clarify even further, Flying J is the one most likely to have specified RV lanes. And Buc-ee's, mainly in Texas, gets high marks.
If you ever travel Iowa it is worth a stop at the I-80 Truck Stop.
Quite a sight to see.

[flybouy]

Portable gas tanks on wheels with built in hand pumps are available as well. The plastic ones are typically 14 gal. Would still not be the optimum solution.

[gearhead]

We have only used Pilot/Flying J truck stops. Not all have RV lanes. Probably more don't than do. My navigator checks their app and looks on Google map satellite to confirm. You should be able to use the regular car lanes at most truck stops. There is usually maneuvering room. Most of their canopies are fairly high. I would use a spotter for sure.

I would also be thinking about using non ethanol gas. Recommend Chevron Marine fuel stabilizer.
Bucees has plenty of room and has non ethanol except for those in the Houston metro area.

[JRTJH]

^^^ What Brent said is "oh so true" !!!!!

Using ethanol in any tank that supports "small engine refuel" and is hard to empty/used to store gas is a "kiss of death" for anyone who takes the "powers of ethanol" for granted....

That stuff can destroy a carburetor faster than you can look up how to spell carburetor... I haven't used ethanol blended gas for my small engines in the last 10 years and haven't had a single carburetor issue, even with chainsaws and 2 cycle backpack blowers. It's amazing what that 50 cents a gallon extra charge will do to small engine reliability ...

Most RV "rec tanks" don't have a bottom drain and those few that do, most people don't have ten 5-gallon gas cans sitting empty at home... So, draining the ethanol out of the tank is somewhere between "impossible and next to impossible"... Once you put ethanol in the tank, for the next year or so, everything you pump out of the tank will be "tainted with water" unless you treat/overtreat the fuel with an "ethanol supplement"....

Best, if possible, to avoid ethanol if at all possible in any fuel tank that doesn't get emptied regularly.....

[Big 417]

I find most gas stations will accommodate us. We're 13'4" as well. I try to use the outside lane, and you can usual be far enough out to miss the canopy, but the hose still reaches. Forget using containers to fill your onboard ......that's going in reverse of what it's for lol

[kcotton69]

Originally Posted by Jim27

My Raptor is 13’6” high and although I haven’t fueled up yet while connected I plan on fueling up at truck stops. Also having an EFS diesel card doesn’t hurt. My question is what is my best bet for filling my generator and toy tanks with gasoline? Since truck lanes don’t have gasoline what are my options? I would like to avoid regular gas stations considering the size of my toy hauler. Any advice?

I see you're in Texss. Is there a Bucee's near you? They have tall enough awnings and generally a big enough area to get TH in. I fuel mine up at the Bucee's in Terrell.

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

^^^ What Brent said is "oh so true" !!!!!

Using ethanol in any tank that supports "small engine refuel" and is hard to empty/used to store gas is a "kiss of death" for anyone who takes the "powers of ethanol" for granted....

That stuff can destroy a carburetor faster than you can look up how to spell carburetor... I haven't used ethanol blended gas for my small engines in the last 10 years and haven't had a single carburetor issue, even with chainsaws and 2 cycle backpack blowers. It's amazing what that 50 cents a gallon extra charge will do to small engine reliability ...

Most RV "rec tanks" don't have a bottom drain and those few that do, most people don't have ten 5-gallon gas cans sitting empty at home... So, draining the ethanol out of the tank is somewhere between "impossible and next to impossible"... Once you put ethanol in the tank, for the next year or so, everything you pump out of the tank will be "tainted with water" unless you treat/overtreat the fuel with an "ethanol supplement"....

Best, if possible, to avoid ethanol if at all possible in any fuel tank that doesn't get emptied regularly.....

John,
I'm stepping out on a limb and hoping you don't have your saw handy (LOL). What you are suggesting is probably just not possible for many of us. In the west (AZ, NM, UT, etc.) I don't know that I have ever seen a station in my travels that even offered non-ethanol gas. I spend 32 years in the business of pipelining refined petroleum fuels and I know that non-ethanol gas is not even shipped by pipeline in the west. If it is available in Phoenix, for example, it would have to be trucked all the way from an out-of-state source. In Maricopa County it would be illegal to sell due to the air quality standards (sort of like CA standards). Presently there are 6 states that make ethanol mandatory in all gasoline sold. Other states, like California, have air quality rules that effectively make ethanol mandatory even though the rules don't actually require this. The bottom line is that a VAST majority of gasoline sold in the US is going to have ethanol included.

Relative to the closed tank (no drain) issue, ethanol's ability to trap and entrain water approximately 26 times better than gasoline is considered to be a positive value. In non-ethanol gasoline, water easily separates and settles into the bottom of the tank. With no way to drain, it continues to build up until it reaches the fuel pickup level, at which point you begin to feed pure water to your fuel system. With gasoline containing ethanol, the water is held in suspension and regularly fed to the fuel system where it is vaporized during the combustion process. So the fuel system stays cleaner with less water present when fuels also contain ethanol.

My Onan/ Cummins 5500 gen set says:

• "Use clean, fresh unleaded gasoline having a minimum octane rating (Anti-Knock Index) of 87. Leaded gasoline may be used but will result in the extra maintenance required for removing combustion chamber and spark plug deposits. Do not use gasoline or gasoline additives (de-icers) containing methanol because methanol can be corrosive to fuel system components."
• So for my gen set, there are not restrictions I can see to using gas with ethanol.
• Additionally, my Can Am side-by-side makes similar recommendations with no restriction on "ethanol". I've been using AZ 87 octane regular unleaded gas with ethanol for about 10 years with 2 different toyhaulers and multiple motorcycles and SXS's with no issues.

Is there any chance you have confused ethanol with methanol? Maybe the newer vehicle's are less sensitive to ethanol? Just thinking out loud...

[JRTJH]

Brad,

It sounds like your local government agencies are really looking out for the environment at the expense of the people who voted for them.... Maybe it's time to start looking at replacing them or finding a new place to live that does have fuel available

In your post, you comment on ethanol having the capacity to hold "26 times more water than gasoline"... That's the issue. I haven't confused methanol and ethanol... They are two different ingredients and to my knowledge, methanol is not used in motor fuels in any state (for public use in private vehicles) although it is used in some high performance cars for "track competition".

In this "government report" you can read about the "hygroscopic characteristics of ethanol" and what happens to the "methanol enriched fuel" once the methanol is "saturated with water". In short, it destroys the ability to use the gas in an internal combustion engine. https://www.government-fleet.com/157...asoline-blends

There are a number of additives available to blend into ethanol enriched fuels. Some work better than others, but all are a "bandaid to fix the ethanol problems"... The "best solution" is to simply use gas that doesn't have ethanol to start with. That's my suggestion.... If you can find it, use it, it'll solve almost all your "small engine carburetor problems" If you can't find it, then you're in the "top tier of carburetor problems".... I don't know how to fix that issue, other than, as I said, vote them out our move.....

It's not the "sensitivity of the engine" to ethanol blended gas, it's the storage of that fuel and what happens to the octane (energy) once the ethanol becomes saturated with water and destroys the gas in the container once it "sinks to the bottom of the gas can". That's where you get the "carburetor problems"... There's not as much issue with damage when used in fuel injected engines, but that's an entirely different issue and an entirely different technology not even closely related to small engine "float bowl carburetors"....

In short, if you can avoid using ethanol enriched gasoline in small engines, do so, you'll see an improvement in "after storage maintenance"... If you can't get "ethanol free gas" then, good luck trying to "fight the problems you're going to have with long term storage of small engines like lawn mowers, chain saws, generators and even outboard motors. While the government says that ethanol has some benefits (I can't think of any offhand), it has far more "non-benefits" for owners of small engines if they don't take extra precautions with their carburetors and fuel storage.

[LewisB]

Thanks John. I certainly don't disagree with your recommendation to use ethanol free gasoline when available, especially for 2 cycle small engine applications. I think what I was trying to point out is:

• All gasoline sold for "on road use" in the US by Federal Law is required to contain an oxygenate - ethanol. At least 5 states prohibit the sale of gasoline without the use of ethanol. Most stations do not have gasoline without ethanol. [You can attempt to use an app like "pure-gas.org" to try and find a local station, but call the station ahead of time before travelling any distance.]
  
• If you have problems with excessive water in your gasoline, you will likely have problems either with or without ethanol. So the issue that needs attention is dealing with the source of the water.

The average toy hauler owner (like the OP) is going to be lucky to find a place where he can get his rig into the station and he is likely NOT going to have a choice to purchase ethanol-free gasoline to use in the small engines in his trailer for either the gen set or his choice of toys. If you can get it - fine - use it.

This is not a "local" issue. It's a federal air quality issue (EPA). While we like to think we are in control of such things and can change things with our vote, I think recent history demonstrates this is not true.

To end on a positive note, I love our toy hauler! And this forum is a great place to discuss stuff and learn new things!
JMHO

[gearhead]

I disagree with all gasoline for road use has to have ethanol. All gasoline in EPA non attainment zones does though. I can buy non ethanol many places outside the Houston non attainment zone.

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by gearhead

I disagree with all gasoline for road use has to have ethanol. All gasoline in EPA non attainment zones does though. I can buy non ethanol many places outside the Houston non attainment zone.

Yes; all gasoline must meet the EPA and State air quality requirements based on performance zones, time of year, etc.

Most gasoline coming out of the refinery is "unfinished" and most is "fungible" (not company specific). At the gasoline loading terminal, ethanol and company additives commonly are blended as the fuel is pumped into a tank truck. That's where it goes from raw gas (blendstock) to a specific brand with specific proprietary additives. Outside of non-attainment air quality zones, it may be possible to purchase non-ethanol gasoline. But 98%+ of all gasoline sold in the US is blended with ethanol.

So non-ethanol gasoline may not be readily available in many/most areas.
https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=27&t=10
https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_fuel_basics.html

BTW: I'm not a proponent of ethanol - I wish we didn't have it - I'm simply stating what I think we are forced to deal with as toy hauler owners.

[JRTJH]

Brad,

I think if you'd have read the article in the link I provided it would have helped you understand better what happens to ethanol blended gas when it's stored.

Here's just one part of that article:

"Beyond that, ethanol is hygroscopic, meaning that it draws the moisture from the air into the fuel. E-10 gasoline can hold approximately two teaspoons of water in suspension per gallon before starting to go through the disastrous process of phase separation. Phase *separation occurs when the fuel can no longer hold any additional water in suspension. At this point, the ethanol and the water will combine together and fall to the bottom of the fuel tank (because ethanol plus water is heavier than gasoline). When this happens, the fuel is ruined because much of the fuel’s octane value is now on the bottom of the fuel tank.

One of the reasons ethanol is used on a widespread basis is because, with an octane value of 119, ethanol is used to round out the octane value of the base gasoline. Companies can start with a lower-octane gasoline base and make up the difference by adding ethanol at the end of the process. If the ethanol phase separates, it carries with it an essential portion of the fuel’s octane value, and this can make the fuel unusable.

The possibility of phase separation of your stored ethanol gasoline can be a huge concern. Once ethanol-*blended gasoline absorbs water, the fuel life is approximately 90 days. No products on the market today can cost-*effectively reverse phase separation after it occurs. And there also exists the possibility of engine damage should phase-*separated fuel be in your fuel tank. The fuel pickup pipes are located at the bottom of fuel tanks, so if the water-ethanol layer is ingested into the fuel system, equipment damage or a breakdown can occur."

As you can see, once the ethanol absorbs all the water it can hold, it drops to the bottom of the tank and with it goes most of the "octane enrichment" of the "lower grade gasoline blend".... What's left in the tank is essentially "water and crap called gas"... The "benefit of "pure gasoline" is that it starts with sufficient octane rating run an internal combustion engine. The "crap left after ethanol falls to the bottom" won't run an internal combustion engine.

With fuel injection, the computer compensates to a degree, allowing engine operation, even with some ethanol/water saturation.

As stated in the article, ethanol enriched gas can be stored for about 90 days. After that, there is no known "additive" that can restore the fuel to useful octane ratings.

As for "not being able to buy/use non-ethanol fuel" it's available in many places, and with the exception of "those 5 states with rules prohibiting its sale" the other 45 states do not prohibit its use. In Michigan, it costs about 50 cents more than E-10/E-15 blended fuel. The reason it costs more is the "base gasoline" used is a higher octane (as explained in the linked article).. There is no law in this state that prohibits filling up my DW's Edge or my Slingshot and operating either of those on the public roads..... The reason many don't is the extra cost for non-blended fuel.

I still maintain that if available, rec gas (non blended, ethanol free fuel) is better in all small engines with a carburetor and even in those few engines that are now becoming available with fuel injection. The difficulty in finding it where you are does not negate the use in other areas. I would not want to suggest that those people who can buy it should "refrain from using it because it's not available to everyone"..... If you can get it, it's better for your small engines, if you can't, it's still better for those who can get it......

ADDED: Here is a link to one of many sites that list stations where ethanol free gas is available. This link is for Arizona. You can use the links to search any other state: https://www.pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=AZ

[flybouy]

Here in the “People's Republic of Maryland” it’s not available. The issue for me is the generator. I use in case of a long power outage. I have to keep it empty and only fill if the power goes out. It’s come in handy during a couple of storms but it’s too infrequent to keep much over 5 gal can for the riding mower. When a tropical storm is due I fill three 5 gal cans and fill a necessary then drain it out when finished. PIA

[LewisB]

Originally Posted by LewisB

Thanks John. I certainly don't disagree with your recommendation to use ethanol free gasoline when available, especially for 2 cycle small engine applications.

Quote from Post #15. Didn't intend to highjack the thread or create a primer on ethanol fuels. John, as the prior manager of a very large petroleum shipping and blending terminal, I'm pretty familiar with the info you quoted. Consider my limb as being cut on this issue - should never have walked out there to start.

If you can get non-ethanol gasoline, you can use it. If you can't get it, either worry about it or don't worry about it - your choice. Bye.