Mountain Towing

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by Global Driver

What is a reasonable amount of miles to consider for a buying a used diesel?
Here in TX, I worry what the hot shot guys have been trying to tow out on the farms with them. Anything less than 100K should be just getting started correct?

I bought mine used. It was about 18 months old anmd had joist over 80K on it. The Ford dealer sold it new, the owner traded it in a new one. They knew the owner, they knew how the miles were accumulated, and they had all the service records. That's the only way I would buoy one used.

JMHO, YMMV

[notanlines]

Global, if you hang around the big RV dealers for awhile you will see most 'hot shot' haulers are driving ragged out diesels, lots of Dodges from pre-2013 because they were cheap, cheap, and they did a good job. Not many (yes, a few) are out dragging RV's around the country with 80K new trucks. They are in this for the money and it's hard to make anything at the business without a $1,500 truck note.
Your odds of finding one of their trucks on a truck lot for sale are fairly slim. In your case I would hook up the TT mostly loaded the way you might make the trip and roll over a CAT scale. If you're within the 'maximum cargo capacity' and are only going to make this one trip then make sure all ten tires are in great shape, have the Suburban and TV serviced, bearings, brakes, etc. and get with the program. Hit the road. If it your kind of entertainment and your family loves it then go looking for a one ton, NOT a 2500. Take my word for it, go one ton.
After you go over the CAT scale, get back on this forum and let us know what the figures are. We can all go from there.

[jasin1]

Originally Posted by flybouy

I bought mine used. It was about 18 months old anmd had joist over 80K on it. The Ford dealer sold it new, the owner traded it in a new one. They knew the owner, they knew how the miles were accumulated, and they had all the service records. That's the only way I would buoy one used.

JMHO, YMMV

You make a good point... it is a risk buying used from a private seller but I traded my truck Can’t remember exactly what they gave me .. think it was $34000?..any way they probably did absolutely nothing to it and sold it for maybe $40000-$42000... I would say buying used can save a lot if you look for someone that obviously takes care of there home and vehicles and is a original owner...and I would have sold it myself except the COVID thing shut most of the banks and I would want to be AT the bank with whoever was getting the cashiers check for the sale. It looked like a complicated proposition so I traded it

[Global Driver]

Originally Posted by notanlines

Global, if you hang around the big RV dealers for awhile you will see most 'hot shot' haulers are driving ragged out diesels, lots of Dodges from pre-2013 because they were cheap, cheap, and they did a good job. Not many (yes, a few) are out dragging RV's around the country with 80K new trucks. They are in this for the money and it's hard to make anything at the business without a $1,500 truck note.
Your odds of finding one of their trucks on a truck lot for sale are fairly slim. In your case I would hook up the TT mostly loaded the way you might make the trip and roll over a CAT scale. If you're within the 'maximum cargo capacity' and are only going to make this one trip then make sure all ten tires are in great shape, have the Suburban and TV serviced, bearings, brakes, etc. and get with the program. Hit the road. If it your kind of entertainment and your family loves it then go looking for a one ton, NOT a 2500. Take my word for it, go one ton.
After you go over the CAT scale, get back on this forum and let us know what the figures are. We can all go from there.

Heading over to the local CAT scale tomorrow!! Will report back

[sourdough]

A couple of observations;

With a 3.42 you will be stretched very thin trying to pull those grades - even the lesser ones like Raton and La Veta. Combine that with a Suburban, I am assuming with multiple people (you don't specify but it is a BH trailer) and all their gear - hopefully it is in tip top mechanical shape or you may leave the tranny or piston on the side of the road.

The 3.42 isn't a towing ratio and your engine will most DEFINITELY know the elevation. Towed many miles in TX and in the mountains. There is a marked decrease in performance the higher you get and that was with 3.55, 3.73 and 3.92 rear ends, Ram hemis, 5.7 and 6.4. You do not give any indication of what your engine is which is a prime consideration for your anticipated task.

You said you had 600lb. bars on a wdh for the Suburban. Dump them and get 1k bars. That is a 7500lb. gvw trailer and 600lb. bars don't do you any good. When you upgrade to a heavier wdh get a good one like the Equalizer with the properly sized bars (don't recall what you said you had).

Make sure you have checked all the tires on truck/trailer (new), brakes checked and adjusted along with all the other vitals.

Where you are going is a very pretty place to us. Spent lots of time in SF, Pagosa, around and in between. Do not be tempted, at all, to take your trailer over Wolf Creek - just drive over it in the Suburban and tool on down to Treasure Falls then to Pagosa to check things out. Creede is on the other side of South Fork and we really like it there as well.

Driving in/around Aledo-Dallas is nothing like the CO mountains if you haven't done it. Not a lot to it but you need to be really focused on the road, what's coming and the grades. Going downhill with bad brakes (or sub par) and a 7500lb trailer behind you won't end well.

You might post that scale weight when you are done along with your payload from the driver door. Hope you have an uneventful trip. That is a really pretty and fun area....take your fishing gear if you like trout.

[travelin texans]

Originally Posted by Global Driver

Gonna need some clarification on why I am over the payload capacity of my TV.

GVWR is 7300lbs
7300 - 5775 (curb weight) = 1525 lbs of payload
Family and gear within the truck are far below that 1525 lbs

At the last weight station, I was below the individual GAWR FRT and RR
I use a 600 lbs WDH to lighten the load on the rear axle and tongue weight as well.

Is there some number I am missing?

First thing, you've posted the max tow weight rating of your Suburban & the dry weight of your rv, both of these numbers are useless for your calculations.
With a Suburban towing a bunkhouse I'd assume there's several people in the Suburban & all their stuff in the rv, so the weight of people & all the "must haves" they take along will add up fast.
You need to look at the yellow/white tag on the driver's door post that states "occupants & cargo must not exceed XXXX lbs" that's your vehicles payload. Figure 13% of the GVWR of your bunkhouse as tongue weight (on a 7500 lb TT that's 1075 lbs) + the weight of the WDH + the weight of everyone/everything in/on your Suburban & subtract that from your vehicles payload. Now you'll have real world rv numbers.

[ChuckS]

Regardless of where the OP is or isn't with regards to weight load and capacity that Suburban with that trailer is gonna wind that crap out of the egnine on most any uphill grade..

I have towed in the Mtns of Idaho and Montana for over 35 years and his setup with the gear ratio ( engine size unknown ) is gonna have a struggle...

I have towed an 18 foot Road Ranger with a GMC van with 350 engine and 350 transmission.. it did it and did it for a few years till I could afford to get better...

To me having owned this diesel for 14 years now I would never consider anything but a diesel

And a diesel with 125 to 150K on it thats been properly maintained will not need a bunch of suspension parts and such

I have 149K on my LBZ Duramax.. still running with original OEM brakes and all suspension parts. The only wrenching done on it is done by me.

[flybouy]

Global Driver I'm going to try to relate your towing experience to flying. If you're a pilot you should be familiar with weight and balance as well as performance and operating envelope of aircraft. Your Suburban is a people hauler geared for increased fuel mileage at sea level. Sort of like a Cessna 172, a couple of "average weight " folks operating fo an FBO below 2,000 asl and it performs OK and is safe.

Now load that same aircraft with the same load at Denver on a 90° day and you most likely won't have enough runway. IMHO pulling a long trailer at max weight on level ground with that Suburban will be challenging enough doing it at high elevation over steep grades? If any of the FBOS you visit have a banner plane take a look at the operator's manual. Compare the performance tables for the aircraft operating with the PIC only and when it's dragging a banner. Sort of the same principles going on with weight AND drag. Or if there are tow planes that haul sailplanes check them out.

No one's trying to be a "buzz kill" here. Most of us have been thru the same journey and have the "while knuckled" memories (some nightmares) that add another notch on our towing belts. Best of luck to you and travel safe.

[EMTPRescue]

Mountain towing does require more awareness of two specific challenges. We live just 30 miles east of the Rocky Mountains in Calgary, AB. I have been towing RV's through the mountains for over 45 years.

Here are some hints.

The first is do you have the power to get up the hill at a speed that does not create a frustrating or even dangerous obstruction to the safe flow of traffic?

The challenge with increasing altitude is that you see a decrease in your engine's ability to generate power if your engine is not turbo or super charged. The reason is simple. The higher you go the thinner the air gets. Thinner air results in less Oxygen in the air that your engine is sucking in on each intake stroke. Less O2 equates to a less efficient burn of the fuel and the resultant loss in engine power.

Other thin air challenges are that less dense air flows through your radiator just at a time when your engine and transmission temperatures are increasing precipitously due to the increased work load.

Going up the hill, unless you know for certain that you have the power and the cooling to stay up with traffic, pull to the right lane, slow down a bit and take a lower gear. For god's sake stay out of overdrive. Always use your truck's tow/haul mode if so equipped. Turn off your AC. Your engine will rev higher thus having greater mechanical advantage and not have to work as hard. The higher RPM will move more volumes of water through your rad and the increased fan speed will move more air through your rad and transmission cooler. Turning off your AC means that you are not introducing more heat to your rad through the AC condenser. As your coolant temp increases get ready to hear your thermally regulated clutch fan spool up. If you have not heard the fan fully engaged before, it can sound like a jet plane is about to fly through the cab of your truck. Some people misinterpret the increase in fan speed/sound as their engine reving up out of control. Watch your tachometer. If the engine speed has not increased then the sound is just your fan spooling up to full speed.

Following these steps will reduce the risk of overheating the drive train and possibly damaging something in the middle of nowhere. Remember this phrase, heat is your enemy.

The second and probably more important challenge from a safety standpoint is going down the other side of the hill. When I took my Commercial Driver training some 35 years ago, the old retired SARTech turned driving instructor told me this. Never go down a hill in a higher gear than the gear you needed to get up the hill. Of course, this advise was because I was learning to drive Semis that could weigh somewhere north 100,000lbs, but the concept is the same. What he was saying was get behind the vehicle's ability to brake the load and you will regret it because very often there is no recovery.

Here are some of my recommendations for mountain driving. Know what is going on with your equipment. Install good quality instruments in your tow vehicle that allow you to monitor either in analog or digital form the following parameters; engine coolant, transmission fluid temperature, engine oil temperature. Idiot lights on the dash are just that, idiot lights. Install a larger radiator with more core rows if you can find one. Install an external transmission fluid cooler. The stock trans cooler your truck comes with is most likely inside the radiator which serves to do nothing but heat up your engine coolant as your transmission heats up.

Drive during the cooler temperatures of the day. Early in the morning is great because it is cooler and there are fewer vehicles on the road.

I recommend using fully synthetic engine oil, transmission fluid and lubricants. Synthetics along with better cold weather start up protection, have a much higher "flash point" then that of conventional products. This means that deep in the inner workings of your engine and transmission the oil is remaining as oil and is not coking or burning. Synthetic engine oil continues to lubricate at higher temperatures and most importantly, will scavenge more heat from the internal areas of your drive train. One of your engine oil's primary function is the scavenging or transference of heat thus my recommendation for the addition of an external engine oil cooler.

I have to presume from your inquiry you suspect that your vehicles published weight and tow ratings change because you are driving in the mountains. They don't change at all. If you are within the numbers then you are within the numbers. What does change as discussed above is how effectively your tow vehicle's powertrain and braking capacity can handle the extra demands of driving safely while towing in the rocks. Engine power loss can be calculated but there are too many factors to higher altitude power decrease than can be easily determined.

Unless you drive like a granny going to church on a Sunday morning all the time, then you had better resign to the FACT that you MUST change how you drive when you have close to 9000lbs pushing you around while you are towing. Slow down. Give yourself lots of room to react. Install the gauges to tell you what is going on so you can react before the problem arises and your trips will be far less stressful and a great deal more relaxing.

Have a safe and enjoyable RVing season.

Hope this helps

2009 GMC Sierra 3500HD SLT Denali
Performance upgraded D MAX Diesel dyno at 425HP and 825ftlbs of torque
Doubled the stock trans cooling capacity. Trans runs at 185F max!
Full Turbo Back free flow exhaust with DPF, Cat Con and EGR overridden/removed.
2019 Montana 3790Rd Fifth wheel (17,100 GMWR)
Upgraded Hydra Star disc brake conversion
21,615lbs loaded going down the road

[EMTPRescue]

Flybouy, I get your point however would respectfully disagree with some of your comparisons.

What you are trying to point out is that altitude creates challenges to normally asperated, piston engines and you are absolutely correct.

The balance of your comparisons with what you and I, as pilots refer to as, Density Altitude Restrictions, just do not apply to this individual's concerns.

Respectfully, he is not trying to get this vehicle airborne. He does not have to concern himself with the reduced lift capability of the wing and the reduced thrust of the prop caused by reduction in air density.

As I stated in my reply to him, what needs to be understood is that altitude/temperature changes create some significant challenges and that the more equipped he is from both a knowledge and equipment standpoint, then the more enjoyable his towing experience should be.

Have a great day.
Always remember, shinny side up dirty side down.

2009 GMC Sierra 3500HD SLT Denali
Performance upgraded D MAX Diesel dyno at 425HP and 825ftlbs torque
Doubled the stock trans cooling capacity. Trans runs at 185F max!
Full Turbo Back free flow exhaust with DPF, Cat Con and EGR overridden/removed.
2019 Montana 3790Rd Fifth wheel (17,100 GMWR)
Upgraded Hydra Star disc brake conversion
21,615lbs loaded going down the road

[flybouy]

Originally Posted by EMTPRescue

Flybouy, I get your point however would respectfully disagree with same of your comparison thoughts.
What you are trying to point out is that altitude creates challenges to normally asperated, piston engines and you are absolutely correct.

The balance of your comparisons with what you and I, as pilots refer to as, Density Altitude Restrictions, just do not apply to this individuals concerns.

Respectfully, he is not trying to get this vehicle airborne. He does not have to concern himself with the reduced lift capability of the wing and the reduced thrust of the prop related to a reduction in air density.

As I stated in my reply to him what needs to be understood is that altitude/temperature changes create some significant challenges and that the more equipped he is from both a knowledge and equipment standpoint then the more enjoyable his towing experience should be.

If you reread my post the intent was to relate in familiar terms the impact on altitude and performance. No, I did not try to relate in any way that the suv or trailer would sprout wings or that he op was attempting to take off. As a side note, aerodynamic lift is not a requirement for flight, ask anyone that's thrown a rock or light the fuse on a bottle rocket.

[notanlines]

I like what EMTP said along with a number of other posters. I think we should try to stay in the realm of the OP's question and maybe try to fly a little less. We all made good points. Yes, his Suburban might make it. Yes, he might be 'in the envelope' where his weights are concerned. He might not. This guy is not going to his friendly Freightliner dealer and pick out a new shiney toy to tow this RV on vacation for one trip. Let's wait and see what the CAT figures are and then give him a little help, as an example the separate transmission cooler. A very good idea.
On edit: I particularly like the phrase "it can sound like a jet plane is about to fly through the cab of your truck." Those of us with a little towing experience at altitude can relate. I didn't know the damned thing could make that much noise.

[Global Driver]

Thank you all for the loads of intel and insight! I got wrapped up with stuff today and couldn't make it to the CAT scales. The trip to the scales is set for Monday.

Will report back!

[Global Driver]

Just back from the scales

Truck
Front 3000lbs
Rear 3040 lbs
Total 6040 lbs
GAWR FT 3500 (-500) lbs
GAWR RR 4400 (-1360) lbs
GVWR. 7300 (-1260) lbs


Truck and Trailer
Front 2680 lbs
Rear 4160 lbs
Trailer 5320 lbs
Total 12,160 lbs
GAWR FT 3500 (-820) lbs
GAWR RR 4400 (-240) lbs
GCWR 14,000 (-1840) lbs

The number I maxed out was the Tongue weight. I have 1,000lb bars....not the 600 lb ones I mentioned previously. My apologies for not stating correctly.

Max Tongue with WDH is 1,000 lbs

With the trailer on RR Axle is 4160 lbs
Without the trailer RR Axle is 3040 lbs
(+120 lbs)

I found 2500 trucks for rental. Gonna have to look at that option while I shop for the right truck as I save up.

[GaryUT]

Originally Posted by Global Driver

Just back from the scales

Truck
Front 3000lbs
Rear 3040 lbs
Total 6040 lbs
GAWR FT 3500 (-500) lbs
GAWR RR 4400 (-1360) lbs
GVWR. 7300 (-1260) lbs

Truck and Trailer
Front 2680 lbs
Rear 4160 lbs
Trailer 5320 lbs
Total 12,160 lbs
GAWR FT 3500 (-820) lbs
GAWR RR 4400 (-240) lbs
GCWR 14,000 (-1840) lbs

It looks like you are under on everything.

Looking at your numbers.

Truck loaded 6840 minus truck empty 6040 equals 800 pounds tongue weight.

Trailer axles 5320 plus 800 equals 6120 trailer weight.

You are loosing 320 pounds from the front axle when hitched up. You need to tighten up the weight distribution bars to transfer more weight to the front of the truck.

Gary

[Global Driver]

Originally Posted by GaryUT

It looks like you are under on everything.

Looking at your numbers.

Truck loaded 6840 minus truck empty 6040 equals 800 pounds tongue weight.

Trailer axles 5320 plus 800 equals 6120 trailer weight.

You are loosing 320 pounds from the front axle when hitched up. You need to tighten up the weight distribution bars to transfer more weight to the front of the truck.

Gary

With the Equalizer Hitch, have you guys figured out how many LBS moved per washer? Or just add washers and re measure till your particular set up works?

Not that any of this matters for the Mountain towing....gonna still need a bigger rig to make that happen

[CedarCreekWoody]

We're these weights with all passengers and gear, food, water etc rigged to go camping, or were these empty weights?

[Global Driver]

Originally Posted by CedarCreekWoody

We're these weights with all passengers and gear, food, water etc rigged to go camping, or were these empty weights?

These were with paxs and gear.
We don’t haul with food or water onboard.

We buy groceries and goods when we get there.

[Halcyon]

Wow, some really phenomenal advice from a wide range of folks! I have a small bit of experience to add. Monarch pass is another of your possible destinations that I have personal experience with. A 2005 Chev 2500, 6.0 gasser, 373 axles, towing a 10k 5er ran 5500 rpm up and down, tow mode on, geared down to 3rd. Thought the pistons were going through the hood! Brakes OK, but had to use them too much. One scary ride.
Same pass, 2017 chev diesel, 2500, 373 axle, same trailer. No comparison! Smooth, plenty of power up, engine brake was so effective, brakes were only backup on way down.
One other downhill caveat: downshift BEFORE you need to! Go slower down than you did up. Don’t upshift just because the road levels out at that point unless you really know the road. You could get a quick downhill right after that short stretch and get caught in too high a gear. Happens on the Eisenhower Tunnel west side. Semi drivers know that and stay in lower gear unless they want to try the runaway ramps...

[Mikelff]

Originally Posted by Global Driver

Just back from the scales

Truck
Front 3000lbs
Rear 3040 lbs
Total 6040 lbs
GAWR FT 3500 (-500) lbs
GAWR RR 4400 (-1360) lbs
GVWR. 7300 (-1260) lbs


Truck and Trailer
Front 2680 lbs
Rear 4160 lbs
Trailer 5320 lbs
Total 12,160 lbs
GAWR FT 3500 (-820) lbs
GAWR RR 4400 (-240) lbs
GCWR 14,000 (-1840) lbs

The number I maxed out was the Tongue weight. I have 1,000lb bars....not the 600 lb ones I mentioned previously. My apologies for not stating correctly.

Max Tongue with WDH is 1,000 lbs

With the trailer on RR Axle is 4160 lbs
Without the trailer RR Axle is 3040 lbs
(+120 lbs)

I found 2500 trucks for rental. Gonna have to look at that option while I shop for the right truck as I save up.

Global, The number you need to look at is your Payload number, real numbers from the scales loaded. That will tell you right away if you are over or under weight. I don't see those in your post.
Another suggestion. In my case when I was shopping for a used truck I bought mine from a Chevy dealer. I bought a Chevy CERTIFIED low mileage truck with a 38,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty. I planned on keeping my truck for several years, so was looking for low mileage used. Still saved thousands over new. When my warranty expires I will consider an extended warranty because if something big goes bad on a diesel, your talking a big expense. Just something to consider. Private individual purchase you have no warranty and its a crapshoot. Safe travels!