Whole home generators - Page 3

Frank G · 02-19-2021, 01:54 AM

I keep waiting for someone to brag about hooking up there new F-150 with the onboard generator to save the day. Before I die I will have one of those, it's on the "bucket list".

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/f...-storm-outage/

jasin1 · 02-19-2021, 06:12 AM

How safe are the permanent generators for sensitive electronics? I know my small inverter one is good.

travelin texans · 02-19-2021, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin1

How safe are the permanent generators for sensitive electronics? I know my small inverter one is good.

They're designed for just that purpose so would assume they'd be totally safe.
Much more so than some construction type generators.

jasin1 · 02-19-2021, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travelin texans

They're designed for just that purpose so would assume they'd be totally safe.
Much more so than some construction type generators.

That makes sense.. I was thinking about portable inverter generators and the reasons behind them. I guess when you get into the big bucks,they have it covered

dutchmensport · 02-19-2021, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maineiacs

Something wrong with this picture. Our Generac runs on propane. We had a 100 gallon tank dropped behind the garage and the line run to the generator. Runs a 5 minute test cycle once a week. That tank would be enough for 36 hours of continuous use at 100% of its rated output. The tank and the install are included in the 6K I mentioned earlier.

When we do something, we do it BIG or not at all. Here's what I'm talking about. If we are putting in a whole house generator like this, then it's going to be able to run a long-long time if the electric company goes dark.

**JRTJH** · 02-19-2021, 12:46 PM

Something you'll need to consider if you do buy your own "PIG" (large propane tank)...

A Generac 14KW home standby generator uses 1.81 GPH at 1/2 load and 3.07 GPH at full load.

Assuming you buy a 250 gallon PIG, a full propane tank will hold 200 gallons (same 80% fill as our RV tanks) give you about 110 hours of continuous use at half load. 110 hours is a tad less than 4.5 days use. At full load, you'll get rougly 65 hours (2.7 days) of continuous use.

At $2 a gallon for propane, that's $400 to fill the tank. A 1000 gallon tank is $1600 to refill. So, remember that "dead investment sitting in the yard" as being a "non-interest bearing money hole" (much like most of our travel trailers, BTW)...

IMHP (for what that may be worth) depending on a "limited fuel supply" whether it's 5 gallon gas cans or 250, or even 1000 gallon PIG's, brings with it a requirement to depend on fuel replenishment. With gas cans, "YOU" are the means to replenish. With a PIG, you're dependent on someone else to bring the propane truck to your home. One "YOU" control, one "someone else" controls.... Having to coordinate a propane delivery for a 250 gallon tank every 2 or 3 days in a situation like SW Texas has right now, would probably not be an easy or even a reliable delivery system.... I'd guess people are waiting in line for propane deliveries just like they're waiting in long lines to fill up 20 pound tanks at most hardware stores.....

It's not "better or worse" with natural gas, you'll still be dependent on the delivery system, but not on "someone with a truck" to replenish the supply...

In places where earthquakes are the reason for interrupted utilities, depending on an underground gas line may be a reason to consider a self contained propane source IN YOUR YARD.... In other areas, where the underground utilities are not as subject to damage or interrupted service, a PIG may not be as important in maintaining a reliable fuel source....

I can say, at least in my personal experience, we've never had the natural gas utility interrupted, so a PIG is not as important as it may be in some other situation in a different area of the country.

Each application is going to have different factors to consider.

Bottom line, at least for us: Operating costs on our 14KW runs about $25 a day in natural gas costs. To run the same generator on Propane is about $45 a day (both at half load) and to run my BIL's 4000 watt generator with a circuit breaker panel safety interlock is about $10 a day. All are SIGNIFICANTLY more expensive than the "overhead electric wires" that we all use.

nellie1289 · 02-19-2021, 01:08 PM

John- that is a thoughtful analysis. Based on my gas prices vs power bill here frankly im not sure its any more expensive to run my house on 87 octane than the power bill. my power bill is a bout 8-9$ per day. I ran my generator for 20 hours on 3 galons. That's about 9$. Ha, a lot more inconvenient but cost was about the same!

I think an inverter generator with an interlock is the best solution for most people to be honest. I keep fuel on hand and a quality siphon to empty the cars, boat, side by sides, and others in a desperate situation. In a texas situation, you simply are not getting propane deliveries.

**JRTJH** · 02-19-2021, 01:27 PM

Matt,

Situations like yours (and quite frankly mine as well) is why I posted that information...

I'm 10 years into an expensive system (almost $10 grand) that we've used, maybe 25 days in that 10 years. When we do use it, it costs us roughly $25 a day to operate the generator and we still have to pay for the gas the furnace uses if it's during the winter, so....

When my BIL wanted to install a "smaller standby generator" we found that he could buy a 9KW Generac for $1999 but the installation is the same as a 24KW system (outrageous and far more cost than the work involved)...

So, for him, we did all the "cost analysis" and came up with him buying a Champion 4000 watt generator which will provide 240 VAC @ 16 amps per phase. That's enough to run his lights, his well pump and keep the refrigerator/freezer and furnace operational. He's not attempting to run air compressors in the garage, or loads of "fancy electronics", just trying to "make do during an emergency"...

For his needs, he can manage quite well (at reduced, emergency situations) for less than $1000 and that includes buying the extra gas cans to have enough gas on hand to get him through 4 or 5 days of "emergency"....

In my situation, after having an "expensive, fully automated backup system" for 10 years, I can say that for us, it was "money wasted"... When you consider 2 days a year (our historical average over 10 years), I'm thinking we could have bought a 7.5KW Champion electric start generator and been $8 or 9 thousand ahead right now.... Of course, that would mean getting out of the recliner to start the generator rather than waiting for "Mr Generac" to kick in....

Just my take on having a "Lincoln" and "building my BIL a Ford"... He's just as warm as I am for a whole lot less money....

**sourdough** · 02-19-2021, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JRTJH

Matt,

Situations like yours (and quite frankly mine as well) is why I posted that information...

I'm 10 years into an expensive system (almost $10 grand) that we've used, maybe 25 days in that 10 years. When we do use it, it costs us roughly $25 a day to operate the generator and we still have to pay for the gas the furnace uses if it's during the winter, so....

When my BIL wanted to install a "smaller standby generator" we found that he could buy a 9KW Generac for $1999 but the installation is the same as a 24KW system (outrageous and far more cost than the work involved)...

So, for him, we did all the "cost analysis" and came up with him buying a Champion 4000 watt generator which will provide 240 VAC @ 16 amps per phase. That's enough to run his lights, his well pump and keep the refrigerator/freezer and furnace operational. He's not attempting to run air compressors in the garage, or loads of "fancy electronics", just trying to "make do during an emergency"...

For his needs, he can manage quite well (at reduced, emergency situations) for less than $1000 and that includes buying the extra gas cans to have enough gas on hand to get him through 4 or 5 days of "emergency"....

In my situation, after having an "expensive, fully automated backup system" for 10 years, I can say that for us, it was "money wasted"... When you consider 2 days a year (our historical average over 10 years), I'm thinking we could have bought a 7.5KW Champion electric start generator and been $8 or 9 thousand ahead right now.... Of course, that would mean getting out of the recliner to start the generator rather than waiting for "Mr Generac" to kick in....

Just my take on having a "Lincoln" and "building my BIL a Ford"... He's just as warm as I am for a whole lot less money....

You echo the thoughts I've always had. I now have an appt. for a contractor to assess and plan a whole house generator system set for April 12 when we return. Said it would take 14-18 weeks to get a genset due to the demand.

I think whatever I put into this thing is really money thrown into a hole because in W TX those kinds of things are rare. My rationale, at the moment, is that we are gone 5-7 months a year. We have absolutely no way of managing some sort of generating system when we are away...and things always go awry when you are gone. Our home/property security system depends on power, heater/furnace/AC; all need to work when we are away. We never needed AC when we were away from our vacation homes because we just didn't have that much irreplaceable "stuff" there, this is not that situation.

To say our power company is sub par would be an understatement. I have lost many thousands of dollars of appliances/equip to power outages/brownouts and surges over the years. Insurance will pay for anything mother nature zaps but not inferior electrical providers. In their defense I will say that they haven't spent anything on rebuilding, repairing, updating the infrastructure; they are spending everything on building the grid out to bring in the endless turbines and solar arrays. A bit long explanation but my question:

Is there an answer to the above without going to a whole house generating system? I am unaware of it. I could go with a smaller gen set but if I'm going to do it might as well make sure it covers anything that happens and lets me use what I want, including plugging in the RV to the 50A receptacle. Any thoughts on that?

jasin1 · 02-19-2021, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourdough

You echo the thoughts I've always had. I now have an appt. for a contractor to assess and plan a whole house generator system set for April 12 when we return. Said it would take 14-18 weeks to get a genset due to the demand.

I think whatever I put into this thing is really money thrown into a hole because in W TX those kinds of things are rare. My rationale, at the moment, is that we are gone 5-7 months a year. We have absolutely no way of managing some sort of generating system when we are away...and things always go awry when you are gone. Our home/property security system depends on power, heater/furnace/AC; all need to work when we are away. We never needed AC when we were away from our vacation homes because we just didn't have that much irreplaceable "stuff" there, this is not that situation.

To say our power company is sub par would be an understatement. I have lost many thousands of dollars of appliances/equip to power outages/brownouts and surges over the years. Insurance will pay for anything mother nature zaps but not inferior electrical providers. In their defense I will say that they haven't spent anything on rebuilding, repairing, updating the infrastructure; they are spending everything on building the grid out to bring in the endless turbines and solar arrays. A bit long explanation but my question:

Is there an answer to the above without going to a whole house generating system? I am unaware of it. I could go with a smaller gen set but if I'm going to do it might as well make sure it covers anything that happens and lets me use what I want, including plugging in the RV to the 50A receptacle. Any thoughts on that?

Would it be worth it to buy a smaller generator and have it all ready to go.
Maybe you could hire a seasonal caretaker of sorts/ trusted relative or friend. You can check on your house by the security system if it’s monitored by a third party. They can let you know if power goes out or if a freeze monitor goes off. Possibly even just monitor yourself with battery backup to wifi with alarms for freeze and no power.
In the event of a problem you pay your caretaker to ride over and sit with the house till power comes back on. Probably be a lot cheaper and you can also have them do weekly checks

jasin1 · 02-19-2021, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin1

Would it be worth it to buy a smaller generator and have it all ready to go.
Maybe you could hire a seasonal caretaker of sorts/ trusted relative or friend. You can check on your house by the security system if it’s monitored by a third party. They can let you know if power goes out or if a freeze monitor goes off. Possibly even just monitor yourself with battery backup to wifi with alarms for freeze and no power.
In the event of a problem you pay your caretaker to ride over and sit with the house till power comes back on. Probably be a lot cheaper and you can also have them do weekly checks

And I would buy any generator I could get my hands on in Florida to bring back to Texas .. who knows.. while your waiting for whole house install ,power could go out again

**sourdough** · 02-19-2021, 05:40 PM

I have lawn/tree etc. caretakers for the place year round. I would not start to entrust my security with them. I won't impose on our neighbors. I am 100% about taking care of myself. I monitor my home daily via cameras etc. so don't need anyone to do that and wouldn't let them....and all of the security needs power. I appreciate the thoughts and welcome anything you or anyone else can think of.

jasin1 · 02-19-2021, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourdough

I have lawn/tree etc. caretakers for the place year round. I would not start to entrust my security with them. I won't impose on our neighbors. I am 100% about taking care of myself. I monitor my home daily via cameras etc. so don't need anyone to do that and wouldn't let them....and all of the security needs power. I appreciate the thoughts and welcome anything you or anyone else can think of.

Your right. Can’t put a price on peace of mind. You only live once

**sourdough** · 02-19-2021, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin1

Your right. Can’t put a price on peace of mind. You only live once

You know, you only live once and that's true. Then we choose to be gone so much - I just don't like spending all my time in a brown dirt and sand environment. Then I'm so picky....

I can't see an answer to my dilemma that is cheaper than the whole house install, but in reality I have no idea if there are other alternatives.

**JRTJH** · 02-19-2021, 06:02 PM

I sort of agree with Jasin. Bringing a generator back from Florida might not be a bad idea if you're going to be going back to Texas this month or early in March. From what they're saying on the news up here, it's going to be months before the grid is completely serviceable and then there's all the damage from frozen pipes, electrical damage and roofing/walls to be replaced from the flooding. Even a house with no physical damage will need some way to augment electrical power until the grid is online and reliable...

As for a whole house system. If you're going to do it, I'd go big enough to power everything (within reason). There's no need to go overboard, but a 16kw generator running at half load will last a lot longer than a 8kw running at full load for an extended time. Sort of like hauling your trailer with a half ton or with a one ton... We all know the "reserve capacity is as important as the capability....

Operating costs for a 24kw are about double a 12kw, but it's not all about available power, when you're running on the generator, you're paying significantly more than if you were on the grid. That is only ONE part of the issue. The "other part" is how fast you use the available fuel supply. If you're on natural gas, that's not a limiting factor as long as the gas flows, but if you're on a propane system, when the tank is empty, you're in the dark. Possibly for days/weeks, surely you'll be dark until you can find a source of propane to refill the tank. In an emergency, that "ain't happening" with a phone call....

Around here, it costs about $3500-5000 to install a generator. It costs the same whether it's a 6kw Generac or a 26kw Generac. The only difference might be a couple hundred dollars for larger wiring or such, but otherwise, if you're going to pay for installation, you might as well get a system that will do what you need without maxing itself out every time you need it.

Ours is a 14kw system, we have natural gas heating and stove with electric water heater and dryer. It was the way our architect designed the system to "balance utilities"... Anyway, with the 14kw, we can run anything we need, winter or summer without regard to turning things off to use something else...

That said, if you have natural gas available, that is an "endless supply of power" where, as you can see in my previous posts, propane is limited, sometimes significantly, depending on how large a PIG you have and how often you can find someone to refill it should you have an extended power outage...

IMHO, it's better to have a "reasonably sized generator that powers what you need and burns a reasonable amount of propane" than to have an "oversized generator that loafs along, but runs out of fuel in 3 days"...

Definitely, it's a balancing act.

**sourdough** · 02-19-2021, 06:22 PM

Thanks John. It's a balancing act and an effort at rationalizing something I thought I would never need/want - in W TX?. We run on natural gas and have never had any interruption of natural gas, which we have used since a kid....ever.

My thought on generator capabilities as I told the contractor, until the assessment is made, is a 20k unit or so. In truth, I have no idea of what I am embarking on because this endeavor has never crossed my mind. But I do know I won't go through this debacle again if I can help it.

Don't know. I do know I appreciate and realize the knowledge that the folks on the forum have and appreciate any thoughts they have so if you have a thought let me know.

foldbak · 02-19-2021, 06:33 PM

After spending a week in the trailer with no power this was my solution. 16KW whole house on 500 lbs of propane. I'm not going through that again! Total installed price using a local electrician and purchasing the equipment $9878

Local Generac installed quote was $17,000

Dallasrules · 02-25-2021, 08:19 AM

[QUOTE=hankpage;434679]Transfer switch link
What you need is a transfer switch. The one above is what I use with my 10,000w dual-fuel gen.

I also use a 10k watt 12k surge duel fuel generator. I bought it for around $900 on sale. We keep a propane tank beside it, so we don't have gas in it to go stale or gum it up. We have a transfer switch inside with 6 breakers. It runs through a 50 a breaker in the main box. It powers about 80% of my house. The transfer switch was a couple hundred bucks, but I can power up the higher draw circuits one at a time.
I am in rural Virginia, so average of 2-3 outages a year running from a few hours to a few days. It's been a great system at a reasonable cost, although wiring that transfer switch was a PITA.

blubuckaroo · 02-25-2021, 08:49 AM

Being an electrician. I've seen a lot of options and and methods for using backup generators on a home. Depending on your home situation, a built in generator with an automatic transfer switch may be called for, but for most of us, that would amount to a lot of unused equipment.
I think for a home, a good investment is one of the new multi-fuel generators that run on Gasoline, LP, and natural gas. You'll need to de-rate the generator for use on LP and natural gas, but you'll avoid a lot of maintenance and refueling if you can go this route.
I have a portable 3500 multi-fuel that I've connected to our house and it has enough to run refrigerators, lights, TV, and the 120 volt blower on our gas heater and gas fireplace. You can even cycle in the microwave oven and coffee maker.
The biggest problem with running a manual transfer switch (or cord & plug cheater cord) is you don't know when the power has come back on. You kind of have to watch for the neighbor's lights or street lights.

JBR160 · 02-25-2021, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasin1

Also got this for using it outside..not sure if it was a wise purchase or not

I have that cover for my Westinghouse. Been in rain, heavy snow and wind with it. Seems to be holding up really well the past 2 years. Picture is from last October elk hunt. The generator with the cover is in the lower right hand corner.

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