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Old 01-24-2019, 02:37 PM   #1
BlakeRL
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30amp 120v to 50amp 240v upgrade

I currently have a 1996 to 2006 Keystone Tailgator Sprinter Fifthwheel Toyhauler with a 30amp service 120v Magnetek 6345 Power Distribution Center and Converter which I am about to replace with a WFCO 8930/50 NPB-50 Power Distribution Center and WFCO WF-9875 75amp DC Converter both of which are on order.

I already have purchased and received a 36’ 6/6/6/8 service cord, new twistlock receptacle for exterior wall and a waterproof twistlock cord endplug to attach to the camper end of the service cord!

I still need to acquire an additional few feet of 6/6/6//8 wire to connect from the internal side of the new wall receptacle to the PDC and separate Converter and could use some advice and tips on specific breaker types to purchase such as brand and single/double pole variants as well as DC Fuse brands and sizes etc given my intended load distribution scheme of which I have included a layout drawing I did last night for my camper and it’s existing and future appliances/ electric devices and such.

WFCO recommends 3 specific brands and breaker types which I will list below in a sub-comment as the PDC and manual has not arrived yet and I will need to submit this new thread post before I navigate away from it to make notes about the breakers.

In general I need a dual pole 50amp 240v Main Cutler Hammer, ITE Siemens or Square D breaker and either 6 more brand and then need 3 same brand single pole or double pole breakers for the left side of the PDC in those three branch slots providing either 3 or 6 Branch Circuits and 3 same brand single pole or double pole breakers for the right side of the PDC in those 3 branch slots providing 3 or 6 more Branch Circuits. 20amps AC are being provided to the Converter via a plug already installed in the back of the PDC.

With 50amp 240v being 2 phases (hot legs) of 50amp 120v each I have a total of 100amps of 120v of which 20 is dedicated to the Converter leaving me with 80amps of 120v AC to distribute out from 6ea single pole Breaker Branch Circuits or 6ea double pole Breaker providing 12ea Branch Circuits.

I have not checked and written down the wattage consumption of each electrical device yet which I need to do but based on the illustration I created I could use some general advice on what combination of single and double pole Breakers and amperage you might advise I purchase to distribute the load in the best way possible.

I realize I will likely have to restring 12/2 w ground wiring and possibly heavier gauge to some devices but for starters am going to utilize the existing distribution until I open up the walls and ceiling for other needed repairs before I re-wire the final plan.

Also would it be advisable to retain my existing 30 amp service PDC (but bypass the old 12v side by using the new PDC’s 12v side instead) as a backup and feed it off of a single 30amp breaker (solely for AC, Heat, Water Heater, etc) for now in case I encounter a 30amp only service scenario and create a second customized service cord from my old one routing it to the correct side of the PDC where I would place the 30amp single pole Breaker and how would you recommend configuring it?

I have both an electrical and electronic background so doing the work will be no problem but any advice and ideas would be greatly appreciated as I am figuring out the most practical and efficient load distribution scheme.

I will be attaching the illustration Of my floor plan and devices in a comment/reply below.

Thanks in advance for any ideas or tips in this endeavor to create a modular 30 and 50amp combo system.

PS, as far as 12v or 6v DC Batteries go, would you recommend 2 banks of 6v high amp service hour batteries with 2ea 6v in series and 2 more in series together attached to the other 2 in parallel or would I be as well off with 12v high amperage hour marine gel batteries in parallel to achieve the most hours of usage in a no power scenario.

I intend to add a T57R Switch and 7kw 50amp 240v 2ph Generator as well and a solar array in line as well and am currently how To best employ the switching systems in the correct order but that will be a future bucket list item after I perform needed structural repairs, re-wiring and a new Liquid EPDM Roof after the structural repairs!

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:54 PM   #2
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Well, it will not let me to selectthe photo of my drawing from my phones photo’s but only has the option to go to a URL to retrieve an image?

Guess I will have to find somewhere to place it somewhere wth a URL address!
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:56 PM   #3
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Any ideas on a good photo hosting location to upload my photo with a URL address so I can retrieve and place it here for analysis to answer my questions?
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Old 01-24-2019, 03:00 PM   #4
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Illustration of camper and electric devices

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakeRL View Post
Any ideas on a good photo hosting location to upload my photo with a URL address so I can retrieve and place it here for analysis to answer my questions?
Okay figured it out again!

Here is the Illustration I drew last night.

Thanks in advance

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
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Old 01-24-2019, 03:28 PM   #5
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Breakers approved by WFCO:

Main:
Cutler Hammer BR250 or C250
ITE/Siemens Type QP
Square D Type HOM

Branch:
Cutler Hammer BD2020 or A2020
ITE/Siemens Type QP or QT
Square D Type HOM
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Old 01-25-2019, 08:49 AM   #6
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I am just intrigued at the amount of computer/server stuff you will have in your trailer

Are you an on the road IT consultant?
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:01 AM   #7
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
I am just intrigued at the amount of computer/server stuff you will have in your trailer

Are you an on the road IT consultant?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
I am just intrigued at the amount of computer/server stuff you will have in your trailer

Are you an on the road IT consultant?
I used to be both a computer tech (IT) guy and a digital artist and also was a videographer, video editor, video encoder, photo editor, 3D Modeler, 3D Animator, web designer and web developer, as well as a Commercial pre-press Technician, etc, etc amongst too many other things through my life.

In the military alone I held 7 MOS’s (Military Occupational Specialties) one of which was 25Z which is a Visual Information Chief and transitioned to that one from 25M which is Multimedia Illustrator.

I was also a government GS9 Audio Visual Information Specialist and a GS10 Illustrator.

In civilian I had 2 sideline business doing IT, computer repair and consulting, etc for both PC’s and Mac’s and 3 sideline businesses doing graphic design, web design, web e-commerce development, visual and audio product development etc, and Marketing.

These sideline businesses were during my years working regular jobs in civilian and while a part-time Army National Guardsman.

In the Military (both active Army and part-time Army Guard) I held the following MOS’s:
11B Infantry
91A/B Combat Medic
18D Special Forces Medical Sargeant
96B Intelligence Analyst
25M Myltimedia Illustrator
25Z Visual Information Chief
79T ARNG Recruiter
79T Marketing NCO

In civilian did everything from construction to IT, etc it seems.

Been in bad depression and health since 2006 and lost my drive after leaving the military and then my wife and daughter left me and I even became homeless for a stint before buying my first old 1960 something camper and living in it and now this Fifthwheel camper I live in.

Anyway I am trying to climb back out of that bad place and trying to get back into being productive again and have started clearing the cobwebs out my brain pan and doing digital illustration, graphic design, web e-commerce site development etc, again on a small scale to see how I handle the stress.

I keep my systems clean and uncluttered and free of too many apps and utilities not used for specific focuses.

So my Design station is used for photo editing, digital art, graphic design, website and e-commerce site development.

My Video Editing station is used solely to capture and edit video footage, transcode/encode video and audio as well as perform videoediting, compositing and rendering tasks.

My 3D Modeling station is used solely for 3D Modeling, animating 3D scenes and characters, rendering 3D scenes and characters.

My Media Server hosts all of my entertainment, video, movies and audio music stored on multiple hard drives via Plex Server and serves it out to other devices throughout with Plex clients installed on them such as mobile phones, TV’s, FireTV Sticks/Boxes, Roku’s, other computers, etc.

2 iMac 21” computers are used for various tasks as well as are my two laptops (1 Macintosh and 1 Windows 7 system) being used for various tasks. My 3rd Laptop (Alienware M17x) I hacked to run run Windows 7, Macintosh OSX and Linux all on the same laptop and can boot into which ever Operating System (OS) I desire to use.

All systems are networked together with 1 Gigabyte speed routers via cat5e cabling and WiFi and I use a hub system to distribute the Cat5e cabling, coax cabling and telephone cabling. Have not strung wire into the walls and ceiling yet though so cabling is a nightmare until I do.

All 4 Desktop Windows 7 computers use a KVM switch with dual monitor output and usb to feed 1 monitor each from each of the 2 video cards in each computer through the switch so each computer can use the same two monitors and one keyboard and mouse and is it is easy switch each computer back and forth to the same two monitors, single keyboard and single mouse.

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:23 AM   #8
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The amount of IT in your trailer makes me happy haha. I am a Systems engineer who sells network security appliances and also a gaming laptop enthusiast (5 alienwares over the years and eyeballing the new 17" announced at CES). As such, I enjoy a healthy setup of gaming laptop/desktop in my office and enterprise grade servers and networking in my basement (basement set up in picture attached). Having all that on the go with me in my trailer would be a lot of fun but my wife may kill me.

Good luck with the electrical work, I had contemplated a similar upgrade because the 30A 120V service is so neutered in terms of power available (especially if the AC is on). Next trailer will absolutely be a 50A service.

The RV walls may not be deep enough for a keystone jack'd RJ45 Cat 5E setup, maybe just put cable conduits in the corners like a crown/base molding? lol

Looking forward to seeing your progress as you get stuff done.
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:42 AM   #9
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
The amount of IT in your trailer makes me happy haha. I am a Systems engineer who sells network security appliances and also a gaming laptop enthusiast (5 alienwares over the years and eyeballing the new 17" announced at CES). As such, I enjoy a healthy setup of gaming laptop/desktop in my office and enterprise grade servers and networking in my basement (basement set up in picture attached). Having all that on the go with me in my trailer would be a lot of fun but my wife may kill me.

Good luck with the electrical work, I had contemplated a similar upgrade because the 30A 120V service is so neutered in terms of power available (especially if the AC is on). Next trailer will absolutely be a 50A service.

The RV walls may not be deep enough for a keystone jack'd RJ45 Cat 5E setup, maybe just put cable conduits in the corners like a crown/base molding? lol

Looking forward to seeing your progress as you get stuff done.
That is a sweet setup!

I created a Facebook Group for RV and Motorhome Remodeling Ideas so will be documenting the upgrade for it and will share it here with you as well.

As a temp solution for now until all of the products arrive I bought a 50amp male plug to 2ea 30amp female plugs Y adapter and made a second 30 amp service cord. Plugged the male 50amp into the shorepower box 50amp 240v receptacle then plugged my camper into one of the female plugs and then ran the second service cord into the camper and put a 30amp male plug to 2ea 15/20 amp female plug Y adapter on then inside end of the second service cord to power the heater and systems in the back for now.

Could have gone with a 50 to 30/20 Y adapter but wanted to use a heavy 30amp service cord to feed the addition load to the back for now.

It is a economical temp way to get more power if needed and it is available when your camper has a 30amp service.

When I do the upgrade I will pull that back out and and definitely put it in my collection box of adapters for future use should the need arise.

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:47 AM   #10
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Hmm, that is a good idea and a lot easier than redoing the electrical for the whole RV. Just have to add a "subpanel" or something similar to break that second ~30A 120V connection into usable plugs for inside the RV. Could even be a standalone box that sits in the pass through on my trailer in my case and send power lines up through the "Laundry" cutout in the bedroom.

It would actually be completely kosher to do a 50A 120V service as that 2nd leg and leave the built in 30A 120V alone. So your 240v 50A at the post splits into 50A 120V (break out box) and 30A 120V (shore power). No breakers will trip, more power available for use in the RV, modular, winning!

Just have to make sure you have the right sized cables and connectors to carry that load safely.

Since I am not expertly knowledgeable on how those splitters are wired, I may be inclined to "build" a splitter so I know that each service is off of the different 120V legs and wont over load one side by accident. That is necessary to get the most juice out safely. Then you would just need a short 50A - 50A male to male cord to connect your "box" to the post. Plug the 30A shore power into the box and have a (50A 120V rated) cable to carry the remaining power into the RV.
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:02 AM   #11
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Hmm, that is a good idea and a lot easier than redoing the electrical for the whole RV. Just have to add a "subpanel" or something similar to break that second ~30A 120V connection into usable plugs for inside the RV. Could even be a standalone box that sits in the pass through on my trailer in my case and send power lines up through the "Laundry" cutout in the bedroom.

It would actually be completely kosher to do a 50A 120V service as that 2nd leg and leave the built in 30A 120V alone. So your 240v 50A at the post splits into 50A 120V (break out box) and 30A 120V (shore power). No breakers will trip, more power available for use in the RV, modular, winning!

Just have to make sure you have the right sized cables and connectors to carry that load safely.
In my upgrade that is why I am toying with leaving my existing PDC I tack but bypass the 12 volt side by moving it to the new PDC and Converter. Then install a 30amp single pole Breaker in one of the branch circuit slots of the new panel to supply juice to the existing PDC without old Converter. Will not have to require any existing AC Circuits then until I want to move everything over to the new PDC.

Same concept anyway but in my case working with 2ea phases of 120v 50amp versus 1 50amp phase (hot leg).

Your idea would work great for you!

I have to go to a VA Hospital GI Lab appointment and will check back when I get back from the Nashville VA Hosp.

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
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Old 01-25-2019, 11:45 AM   #12
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Here is something I sketched up - would not have to touch internal RV wiring.

Would need to make sure wires are sized large enough to be safe of course.
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:16 PM   #13
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Here is something I sketched up - would not have to touch internal RV wiring.

Would need to make sure wires are sized large enough to be safe of course.
Unfortunately can not make out the labeling and when blowing it up it is too blurry/low resolution.

I am waiting area for my appointment so can’t get on a computer either but could you upload a higher resolution or email one to me.

Is it allowed to put my email address in here if so.

Thanks in advance

Sincerely,
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:21 PM   #14
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Ya, my handwriting is not the best - did I mention I am an engineer? Lol

Private message your email and I will shoot it over

I could see building this as 2 boxes, each mounted in a pelican or something similar to be both portable and durable.
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:26 PM   #15
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Ya, my handwriting is not the best - did I mention I am an engineer? Lol

Private message your email and I will shoot it over
I sent the PM. Let me know if you do not get it.

Sincerely,
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Old 01-25-2019, 12:34 PM   #16
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Ya, my handwriting is not the best - did I mention I am an engineer? Lol

Private message your email and I will shoot it over

I could see building this as 2 boxes, each mounted in a pelican or something similar to be both portable and durable.
I forgot that on here to see an image clearly when blown up that you can’t just click on it to launch the viewer but have to allow it to open up into a new page then can blow it up and retain resolution

That said I just viewed and your handwriting is fine, haha.

That would definitely do the trick.

Great diagram!

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Old 01-25-2019, 12:38 PM   #17
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Well, I also emailed it to you

This could be great for people limited to a 30A shore line on their trailer. Came up with 3 real use cases immediately:

1) Space heater in bedroom if furnace doesn't get much heat to that end of the trailer
2) Wife can use a hair dryer without bringing down the whole trailer if someone uses the microwave or AC
3) Add a 2nd AC unit for bedroom but do not want to deal with wiring it into the trailer electrical system which is the actual hard part of the install (just have a power cord lose that can be plugged in)
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Old 01-25-2019, 05:47 PM   #18
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Hi cookinwitdiesel

Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Well, I also emailed it to you

This could be great for people limited to a 30A shore line on their trailer. Came up with 3 real use cases immediately:

1) Space heater in bedroom if furnace doesn't get much heat to that end of the trailer
2) Wife can use a hair dryer without bringing down the whole trailer if someone uses the microwave or AC
3) Add a 2nd AC unit for bedroom but do not want to deal with wiring it into the trailer electrical system which is the actual hard part of the install (just have a power cord lose that can be plugged in)
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookinwitdiesel View Post
Well, I also emailed it to you

This could be great for people limited to a 30A shore line on their trailer. Came up with 3 real use cases immediately:

1) Space heater in bedroom if furnace doesn't get much heat to that end of the trailer
2) Wife can use a hair dryer without bringing down the whole trailer if someone uses the microwave or AC
3) Add a 2nd AC unit for bedroom but do not want to deal with wiring it into the trailer electrical system which is the actual hard part of the install (just have a power cord lose that can be plugged in)
Yep. Nice job! You could even market that idea and sell them or just share the design with the community at large.

I am going to modify the interior surfaces of the rear toyhauler section area building custom internal cabinets into the walls that do not extend more into the interior than the toyhauler ramp door with my computer logic boards, power supplies and drives built into them instead of their original cases and integrate a Soundsystem controller to the fascia of the cabinets looking like regular stereo controls, and speakers, etc along with swing in monitors from recesses in the custom sidewall cabinetry and a swing down TV from a custom overhead console so that all the equip will not interfere with the use of the back ramp door opening when you he monitors, speakers and TV are returned to their unused positions because I want to be able to drop the ramp door down to a level position and mount a detachable and foldable frame for a canvas skin as well, being I do not have any slideouts and so I can still get toys into the rear end of the camper when desired.

Of course those mods are all still in the idea stage at this point and on the back burner for now.

Currently toying with different ideas of how to cool the hidden computer systems effectively though while retaining a clean design with ports for the cooling and fans and also need to consider how to safely protect the systems from potential roof or wall water leaks so I may have to learn how to weld thin aluminum sheet material or something to build the structures and access panels out of to contain them and then skin them with material like they do in custom high top vans like the Mark III’s and others.

If you wouldn’t mind I may want to pick your brain a little when I get to that point on my remodel.

Have a few ideas some of which might even be marketable.

A custom box like you diagrammed would be an easy way to provide the power to the enternmaint/office area for folks not wanting to fiddle with existing trailer wiring to undertake various modifications such as that as well.

I will keep you posted on how this project unfolds and the solutions I come up with as unexpected design flaws present themselves.

If you decide to promote your 240v 50amp Y adapter with a 120v 50amp sub panel breakout box on one of the split and 30amp 120v female plug on the other side of the split let me know and I will promote or share the concept to other RV owners within your desired guidelines.

I would consider making it a 3 way adapter splitter though to take advantage of the remaining 20 amps left on the phase with the 30amp 120v female plug and add a 20amp 120v plug that could be used to run the spare power to a heated water hose or power tool as needed etc. so one phase would go to your sub panel design inside and the other phase splitting out to both a 30amp female plug and a 20amp female plug!

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
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Old 01-25-2019, 06:03 PM   #19
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Follow up comment to last reply to cookinwitdiesel

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Originally Posted by BlakeRL View Post
Yep. Nice job! You could even market that idea and sell them or just share the design with the community at large.

I am going to modify the interior surfaces of the rear toyhauler section area building custom internal cabinets into the walls that do not extend more into the interior than the toyhauler ramp door with my computer logic boards, power supplies and drives built into them instead of their original cases and integrate a Soundsystem controller to the fascia of the cabinets looking like regular stereo controls, and speakers, etc along with swing in monitors from recesses in the custom sidewall cabinetry and a swing down TV from a custom overhead console so that all the equip will not interfere with the use of the back ramp door opening when you he monitors, speakers and TV are returned to their unused positions because I want to be able to drop the ramp door down to a level position and mount a detachable and foldable frame for a canvas skin as well, being I do not have any slideouts and so I can still get toys into the rear end of the camper when desired.

Of course those mods are all still in the idea stage at this point and on the back burner for now.

Currently toying with different ideas of how to cool the hidden computer systems effectively though while retaining a clean design with ports for the cooling and fans and also need to consider how to safely protect the systems from potential roof or wall water leaks so I may have to learn how to weld thin aluminum sheet material or something to build the structures and access panels out of to contain them and then skin them with material like they do in custom high top vans like the Mark III’s and others.

If you wouldn’t mind I may want to pick your brain a little when I get to that point on my remodel.

Have a few ideas some of which might even be marketable.

A custom box like you diagrammed would be an easy way to provide the power to the enternmaint/office area for folks not wanting to fiddle with existing trailer wiring to undertake various modifications such as that as well.

I will keep you posted on how this project unfolds and the solutions I come up with as unexpected design flaws present themselves.

If you decide to promote your 240v 50amp Y adapter with a 120v 50amp sub panel breakout box on one of the split and 30amp 120v female plug on the other side of the split let me know and I will promote or share the concept to other RV owners within your desired guidelines.

I would consider making it a 3 way adapter splitter though to take advantage of the remaining 20 amps left on the phase with the 30amp 120v female plug and add a 20amp 120v plug that could be used to run the spare power to a heated water hose or power tool as needed etc. so one phase would go to your sub panel design inside and the other phase splitting out to both a 30amp female plug and a 20amp female plug!

Sincerely,
Ronald L. Blake
This way if you only have a single 50amp 240v receptacle in your shore power box you can still utilize all 100amps available!
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Old 01-25-2019, 06:12 PM   #20
cookinwitdiesel
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That extra 20A would be very easy to add and useful in multiple possible ways. Nice idea!
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