4 Season, I think not.

[GeeDubb]

I recently purchased a '21 24RDS light weight(again, I think not but that's another thread I'm thinking about writing) 5th wheel trailer. I ordered it with two AC's and figured it was insulated to back up Keystones claim of 0°F-110°F climate capability.

Rant on/
My first impressions aren't favorable. The cargo doors are 3/4" thick MDF I think and if the sun is shining on them the heat transfer is very significant. My Forest River toy hauler had thicker foam core cargo doors that didn't transfer the sun's heat anywhere near what these cargo doors do.

The front cabinets in the bedroom were also very hot leading me to believe there is no insulation in the front cap. Keystone claims there is a radiant foil barrier in the front cap but if that's the case, it's basically useless. I added 1" foam insulation inside the cabinets to help counter the heat transfer.

The last two days have been mildly warm in the Phoenix area...close to 100°F here at the Lake (Phoenix native, it doesn't get hot until it reaches 110°F and the dew point hits 50°F). I wonder how it would have been had I not added the insulation.

I can't wait for the 118°F days or the first time I take up in the mountains during a cold snap to see how bad it gets.
Rant off/

Now I have to go find the water pump to fix the problem of my fresh water tank filling when hooked to city water....yet another thread. Yes, I have tried turning the pump on and off repeatedly to try and clear the debris keeping the back flow restrictor from closing properly but no luck.

Gary

[notanlines]

First, welcome to the forum. I'm not sure why you didn't buy another Forest River. You seemed to have success with that brand. We've had two Keystones and would be glad to own another. We've also owned one Forest River and feel like we got what we paid for. No complaints. You are basically going to get what you paid for, and generally speaking, none of these forums have factory representation making their presence known. It slips my feeble mind who once said "You pays your money and you takes your choice" but he/she may have been talking about RV's at the time.

[JRTJH]

There's only so much "insulation R factor" you can pack into a 2" wall. Unlike "hand packed spun fiberglass" used in $150K Airstreams or "Space age technology" found in commercial jets is "high tech" and "high dollar" construction. The 2" space in RV's (Keystone or Forest River) is "the lowest bid rigid foam" and produces an "R factor" of around r-7 to r-9 when "added to the insulation rating for FILON and luan (the standard OEM wall build). Then add the "hollow spaces with "rapid heat transfer aluminum tubing" that makes up the trailer structure, and you'll quickly see that r-9 reduced to maybe r-6 or 7. We haven't yet added all of those "r-1 windows" that "provide an airy, open environment" every camper owner craves.....

If you haven't figured it out yet, the "insulation capacity" of any RV, especially one in the "low cost/low weight range" is nowhere even remotely close to the "standard sticks and bricks house".... Most RV construction "r value" is not much improvement over the "r value" of an old Coleman 8x10 canvas tent.

If you take a few minutes to do some "research", you can find the "test process" (if you can call it that) used by Keystone to "certify their claims" of "true 4 season capability".... Putting a trailer in a "test cold room" for 6 hours with full propane tanks and monitoring the internal temperature with remote thermometers in strategic locations" doesn't say much about "human comfort in the bed or on the sofa".. It just "certifies" that the temperature in the belly of the trailer never went below 40F... If you were sitting on the sofa, with that 3'x6' single pane window behind you, it would not be a "comfortable 6 hours"... Same when Keystone turns up the temperature in that "cold room" to 110F. They place those same thermometers on the counter, next to the toilet, in the center of the bed and claim "never lower than 70F"... There was no thermometer sitting on the back of the sofa, next to that "r-1 window" and there wasn't a thermometer positioned at "head height" at the top of the stairs going to the bedroom....

I'd almost bet that Forest River builds the same "cost range construction" in their trailers. It's the ONLY WAY all the manufacturers can stay competitive... A few years ago, JAYCO started installing Goodyear Endurance ST tires on all their trailers. It cost them about $75 more per trailer. They cut the quality of the awning (went from Dometic to Solara) to compensate for the cost of materials to remain "competitive with MSRP" ....

You get what you pay for and you don't get an extra "perk" from any advertising brochure....

[GeeDubb]

Originally Posted by JRTJH

There's only so much "insulation R factor" you can pack into a 2" wall. Unlike "hand packed spun fiberglass" used in $150K Airstreams or "Space age technology" found in commercial jets is "high tech" and "high dollar" construction. The 2" space in RV's (Keystone or Forest River) is "the lowest bid rigid foam" and produces an "R factor" of around r-7 to r-9 when "added to the insulation rating for FILON and luan (the standard OEM wall build). Then add the "hollow spaces with "rapid heat transfer aluminum tubing" that makes up the trailer structure, and you'll quickly see that r-9 reduced to maybe r-6 or 7. We haven't yet added all of those "r-1 windows" that "provide an airy, open environment" every camper owner craves.....

If you haven't figured it out yet, the "insulation capacity" of any RV, especially one in the "low cost/low weight range" is nowhere even remotely close to the "standard sticks and bricks house".... Most RV construction "r value" is not much improvement over the "r value" of an old Coleman 8x10 canvas tent.

If you take a few minutes to do some "research", you can find the "test process" (if you can call it that) used by Keystone to "certify their claims" of "true 4 season capability".... Putting a trailer in a "test cold room" for 6 hours with full propane tanks and monitoring the internal temperature with remote thermometers in strategic locations" doesn't say much about "human comfort in the bed or on the sofa".. It just "certifies" that the temperature in the belly of the trailer never went below 40F... If you were sitting on the sofa, with that 3'x6' single pane window behind you, it would not be a "comfortable 6 hours"... Same when Keystone turns up the temperature in that "cold room" to 110F. They place those same thermometers on the counter, next to the toilet, in the center of the bed and claim "never lower than 70F"... There was no thermometer sitting on the back of the sofa, next to that "r-1 window" and there wasn't a thermometer positioned at "head height" at the top of the stairs going to the bedroom....

I'd almost bet that Forest River builds the same "cost range construction" in their trailers. It's the ONLY WAY all the manufacturers can stay competitive... A few years ago, JAYCO started installing Goodyear Endurance ST tires on all their trailers. It cost them about $75 more per trailer. They cut the quality of the awning (went from Dometic to Solara) to compensate for the cost of materials to remain "competitive with MSRP" ....

You get what you pay for and you don't get an extra "perk" from any advertising brochure....

Thanks for responding.

Being in construction most of my life, built many of my own houses and having a degree in material science and engineering (doesn't mean I'm a rocket scientist) I know that the insulation that they can put in a travel trailer is limited. But to feel the heat through the wall of the trailer in the areas I mentioned leads me to believe they didn't put any insulation in those areas. I also ordered the trailer with dual pane windows to avoid those single pane windows with the weep holes to the outside and to cut down on the exterior noise that an RV park at the busiest lake in the Phoenix area has on the weekends

Gary

[GeeDubb]

Originally Posted by notanlines

First, welcome to the forum. I'm not sure why you didn't buy another Forest River. You seemed to have success with that brand. We've had two Keystones and would be glad to own another. We've also owned one Forest River and feel like we got what we paid for. No complaints. You are basically going to get what you paid for, and generally speaking, none of these forums have factory representation making their presence known. It slips my feeble mind who once said "You pays your money and you takes your choice" but he/she may have been talking about RV's at the time.

Thanks for responding.

Had Forest River had a floor plan like the 24RDS I probably would have bought one of their brands though there is not much different among the manufacturers when looking at the same relative price range.

As for the quote you put at the end of your comment it reminds me of a home builder friend on mine who always said "a custom home is as ugly as you want to make it".

Gary

[JRTJH]

Originally Posted by GeeDubb

Thanks for responding.

Being in construction most of my life, built many of my own houses and having a degree in material science and engineering (doesn't mean I'm a rocket scientist) I know that the insulation that they can put in a travel trailer is limited. But to feel the heat through the wall of the trailer in the areas I mentioned leads me to believe they didn't put any insulation in those areas. I also ordered the trailer with dual pane windows to avoid those single pane windows with the weep holes to the outside and to cut down on the exterior noise that an RV park at the busiest lake in the Phoenix area has on the weekends

Gary

So in your trailer, the r-1 windows were "upgraded" to r-2, when they were new, but by the time the trailer was towed to the dealership, even if there was "inert gas" between the panes, chances are the window movement has allowed enough movement to break the seal and allow the gas to escape.... It's still not going to make a significant difference when the sun is shining on those r-7 walls where, as you said, you can feel the heat on the inside, radiating through the walls... The point I was making is that you're not going to get "million dollar insulation" on a "budget, light weight trailer"...

As for the dual pane windows, take a look at this 'totally unscientific accounting" https://www.doityourselfrv.com/might...le-paned-kind/

There's substantially better "technology" in any S&B house that has a "weather wrap" around it than you'll find in any RV. Next time you're "bored and can't find anything on the 156 satellite channels" get on a creeper under your RV and count the holes in the chassis rails. (hint: There's fewer holes in that old Coleman canvas tent). Every one of those holes "bypasses the insulation" and goes directly to the "big holes cut in the floor for the water lines that go to the sinks"... not only are all those holes "accompanied by gaps in the coroplast" but they're also "helping ventilate the insulated space" , bypassing that non-existing "Tyvek barrier".

If you've ever turned off everything in any RV, sat in it on a windy day with a lit candle, you'll have experienced "bringing the outdoors inside" ...

[notanlines]

As for the quote you put at the end of your comment it reminds me of a home builder friend on mine who always said "a custom home is as ugly as you want to make it".
Gary, I could not have said it better myself! (supposed to be a thumbs up here, cell phone crapola!)