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Old 10-31-2019, 04:36 PM   #21
slow
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The owner’s manual for your truck provides a good explanation of payload and you will find that is well aligned with the advice the forum members are providing. Ignore everything a salesperson tells you.
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:01 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dremcomtru View Post
Hi All,

I'm working on some calculations and am starting to understand the lingo.

I received this email today and wanted to run it by you since were buying a TT and not a 5th wheel...just want to be sure.

Email from dealer:
Hi Nicole, a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed.

A travel trailers tongue weight is a different part of the system. 810lbs on a 1000lb bumber rating is perfect especially when you'll have a weight distribution system installed. We've done 1000s of trailers and we know our stuff.
Also please talk with other dealerships service professionals to confirm what I'm sayin as they will also agree. Also please refer to your Trucks GCVWR. That's your trucks combined vehicle weight RATING Truck and Trailer.

Is he just trying to sell me on the rig?
Go to your 2015 Ford F150 Owner's Manual, page 260 and you'll find the following:

Calculating the Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight for Your Vehicle
1. Start with the gross combined weight rating for your vehicle model and axle ratio. See the previous charts.
2. Subtract all of the following that apply to your vehicle:
• Vehicle curb weight.
• Hitch hardware weight, such as a draw bar, ball, locks or weight distributing hardware.
• Driver weight.
• Passenger(s) weight.
• Payload, cargo and luggage weight.
• Aftermarket equipment weight.
This equals the maximum loaded trailer weight for this combination.
Note: The trailer tongue load is considered part of the payload for
your vehicle. Reduce the total payload by the final trailer tongue
weight
.

I took the liberty of bolding and changing to red the critical part that your salesman is "MISREPRESENTING" to you. I hate to use the term, "LYING" but in this case, I'd suggest that he's LYING, not simply misrepresenting.... His interest is in getting your money, to hell with whether you and your family are safe while towing the trailer he's pushing.....

I'd find a new salesman that knows what he's talking about, that doesn't lie and that wants you to get the "right fit" for your tow vehicle AND your family..... This jerk doesn't fit that criteria !!!!!
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:05 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dremcomtru View Post
Hi All,

I'm working on some calculations and am starting to understand the lingo.

I received this email today and wanted to run it by you since were buying a TT and not a 5th wheel...just want to be sure.

Email from dealer:
Hi Nicole, a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed.

A travel trailers tongue weight is a different part of the system. 810lbs on a 1000lb bumber rating is perfect especially when you'll have a weight distribution system installed. We've done 1000s of trailers and we know our stuff.
Also please talk with other dealerships service professionals to confirm what I'm sayin as they will also agree. Also please refer to your Trucks GCVWR. That's your trucks combined vehicle weight RATING Truck and Trailer.

Is he just trying to sell me on the rig?

Nicole,

Been traveling and finally able to catch up for a bit. This guy doesn't know anything about what he is talking about. He should be embarrassed to even send an email stating what he did - but I'm sure he doesn't know enough to. Sorry for being so blunt but these types of guys get so many folks in trouble and walk away happy knowing they made a sale.

"Payload" refers to the sum of EVERYTHING you add to the trucks original weight; tongue weight on a bumper - ditto, pin weight on a 5th wheel - ditto; they both drop onto the truck and increase the weight that the truck frame/suspension etc. has to carry. They ALL count.

His statement about gcvwr as the number to refer to is also either sales misdirection or ignorance - it is one of several numbers that you can't exceed and they all carry the same importance. Generally gcvwr is one of the higher numbers to exceed, like max tow capacity, so it's easier to let you slip into that category while you exceed all the other numbers.

Here's the deal; the 26rks is an 8800lb. gvw trailer. Depending on how you load your tongue weight could be 1050 - 13xx lbs. That comes off your 1900 lb. payload. While on that point, you need to know what class the truck receiver (hitch) is and what the weight limits are for it. Some are limited to 1000 lbs. as the sales guy was mentioning. If so, the tongue weight of your selected trailer will exceed the hitch rating along with other items. It should be stamped on the receiver and is sometimes listed on Ford's website (the actual receiver stamping takes precedence).

Not knowing how many folks you will take or your camping habits it is always better to calculate using the higher numbers (a scale is better but impossible with yet to be purchased trailer/trucks). So 1300 for a tongue weight gives you about 600 lbs. left for everything else. Hitch will be approx. 125lbs; now you are at 475 lbs. Now, from the 475 you have to deduct the weights of all people, pets, gear, tools, bbq, firewood, hammocks, ground mats, wood blocks (for lifting in the event of a flat), jacks, etc. etc. etc. - AND that 10-15% safety cushion to keep you out of trouble.

As you can see it would be very difficult not to exceed the truck's capabilities using max numbers. We didn't talk about gvw (gross vehicle weight), gawr front/rear (gross axle weight) and the sales guy already mentioned gcvwr. You can find those on your sticker as well.

I know it's a lot to digest, and sort of complicated, but you are doing the right thing in trying to gather it all in and understand it. I too am one of those that had to take a couple of expensive "baths". None of us here want anything more than for you to be able to find a good, safe match for your needs; your salesman is feeding you a line...and a bad one at that.
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:07 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by dremcomtru View Post
We do have an auto and RV service place here in town that works on RV's so I thought I would be safe where ever we bought it. It's a Mom and Pop shop as we're in a small mountain town but he's worked on them for years. Would that suffice?
Sure, if all you want is to get work done and pay for it. If you want work done under warranty and want Keystone to pay for it, that's probably never going to happen. And trust me, with Keystone's world-famous QC, you're going to be bringing your rig back for warranty work, typically several times. (Our rig had the known bad Dometic HVAC gateway, a fouled furnace sail switch, a spare tire that couldn't be dismounted, a bad range fan motor, and probably other stuff I forgot... and of course we didn't find these all at once either.)

Count me as one of those people who started out with an F-150 Ecoboost that would "tow 9,000 lbs." and bought a 26' Cougar "half-ton towable" with max weight 8,800 (virtually the same model as yours, except a different floorplan). Sounds cut and dry, right?

But when I worked the actual payload numbers (I highly recommend this interactive worksheet) I discovered I was severely over tow capacity. We ended up having to upgrade to an F-250 three months ago, an unexpected major expense. Even now we are not 100% golden on our numbers as weighed (instead of the recommended 20% extra capacity margin we have 16%, which we're not going to stress over).

Believe me when I say that both the tow vehicle dealer and the trailer dealer tell big porky pies about what can haul what, in order to move their iron.
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Old 10-31-2019, 05:24 PM   #25
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Make sure that salesman doesn't look you in the eye, his nose may knock you out as fast as it's growing.
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Old 10-31-2019, 07:33 PM   #26
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THank you again...I think we will look for a different TT

Thank you all again for your support... I had a feeling he was trying to take me...shame on him! And what I didn't add to my post is this that he said:
"As that being said please be careful of what information you get out of RV forums... there's a lot of bad information out there."

I certainly have more trust and respect for all of you who have been there and done that. It angers me of dishonesty and down right lying.

I was up late last night learning the lingo and am getting a little better but it will take some time to get it down. I'm thankful for the new calculator sheet provided (thank you) as the other two I'd been trying to use were a bit tough.

I'm not finding all the numbers on the stickers and even pulled speck specific info to my VIN and it's not all there either. I'll hang out on the F-150 forum a little more as earlier recommended.

This will be a process and the good thing is thanks to all of you I'm learning as I go and I didn't make a 40K mistake.

I'm leaving the Cougar line for now. We'll get something smaller...I just want to get out there, it's always been my dream!

Thank you all again for your help and support!
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Old 10-31-2019, 07:39 PM   #27
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If you have not been pointed here yet, here is the link to the 2015 Ford towing guide. A lot of good info here.

https://www.fleet.ford.com/resources...Tgde_May19.pdf
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Old 10-31-2019, 09:56 PM   #28
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The best way to tell when a salesman is giving you false information.........their lips are moving!!!
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Old 11-01-2019, 06:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dremcomtru View Post
... And what I didn't add to my post is this that he said:
"As that being said please be careful of what information you get out of RV forums... there's a lot of bad information out there." ...
He is correct, there is "a lot of bad information out there." Some of it is on this forum just as it is on any other forum... You can read through the "good advice in 100 posts" and then "destroy all the good with one bad post" that says, "Oh don't worry, you'll be OK, I've been doing it for the past 10 years and never had any problems"........ (this is BAD advice and you can find it on this forum if you look, so he's right in saying that, just not used to "make his point")

So, even with this forum, consider not only the good, but also the bad (and the source)....
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Old 11-01-2019, 09:14 PM   #30
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There is also more guidance from the 2015 Goodsam TrailerLife Guide to Towing. This is still not the definitive authority, but just more information to help with this process. https://webcontent.goodsam.com/trail...wGuide2015.pdf
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Old 11-03-2019, 10:15 AM   #31
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The dealers in Portland and Tacoma are cheaper than our Montana ones ...

On solar, the new ones have it all wired in, including 3 outlets if you buy an inverter... just have panel put on roof, inverter and your ready to go... it is a nice add on.
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Old 11-04-2019, 07:44 PM   #32
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Add me to the too much trailer/not enough truck feedback. I don't think you will like this rig in the end result. If you are absolutely set on using your existing truck, then follow the advice given previously and RENT a hitch and trailer to pull with your truck. Don't rent a 20' trailer then buy a 30' trailer - apples/oranges. You may save yourself thousands of dollars by going to this extra step.

> Additionally, one 15K BTU A/C unit will NOT keep this trailer comfortable if you plan to use it in hot/humid weather. At best, you can expect maybe 20 degree temperature differential (outside/inside) with this one unit. The 30A electrical service is not adequate if you want to run more than one AC unit.

> The "Half Ton" as part of the Keystone name is marketing BS and they should be ashamed of this.

> And I would walk - no - I would RUN from the dealer who hired the sales guy that said "a trucks payload is "only" considered if you plan on loading a 5th wheel hitch or placing dirtbikes, atvs etc on that part of the bed." The salesman and the hiring dealer either have an integrity or a knowledge issue - I wouldn't want to do business with them under any circumstances.

Lastly - THANK YOU for being smart enough to research and ask questions BEFORE you make a purchase. You are a rare commodity in today's RV world and we celebrate your just asking first! I'm sure you will choose wisely.
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Old 11-06-2019, 10:39 PM   #33
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As another reference point, I have a 2013 F150 extended cab 4x4 with 3.5 Ecoboost with 3.55 rear axle. Ford says it can pull (w/distribution hitch) a max of 9,700 lbs.
I pull a 2013 Cougar 24RKSWE, actual weight is 7,370 lbs. (Dry weight listed at 5,592.). I get 9 to 10 mpg when towing. I’m pretty happy with the combination. It tows really well and there are no struggles going over mountains. I will second comments about gripping the wheel a bit more firmly in high wind conditions.
I just used the worksheet provided above ( Thanks LHaven) and it said I should be pulling a maximum of an 8,200 lb trailer.
If the 26RKS runs 1000 lbs heavier than the 24RKS it would certainly put me into a more nervous category.
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Old 11-07-2019, 12:13 PM   #34
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Oops. Let me update my last entry (above). I used the weight calculator sheet vary late last night on my phone. I thought by leaving the safety margin entry blank it would auto populate similar to the hitch weight ratio. It did not.
I ran it again this morning using a 20% safety factor and actual truck weight (with my wife, myself, 2 grandkids, camping gear in truck, and full 36 gallon fuel tank).
It came back saying my trailer max can be 7,650 with a 15% safety factor. My loaded trailer came to 7,370 lbs. So my combination works but there is no room to bump up to a larger trailer.

Edit: Adding important fact that my F150 includes the Max Tow Package. ( Factory hitch receiver, wiring harness, trailer brake controller, aux auto transmission oil cooler, and upgraded radiator and rear bumper).
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Old 11-07-2019, 01:17 PM   #35
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Truthfully, I was surprised when you first said your numbers came out well. I did my numbers on a 2012 F-150 that was NOT a 4x4 (which reduces payload) that pulled 9,800 (but of course that number is rarely the limiting one), on a 26' trailer using an actual weight of 6144 (which, as it turns out was optimistic) and failed miserably, at any safety factor.

Don't recall if we specifically ordered "Max" tow, just used the numbers from the labels and manual. If "Max Tow" alters only the components you mention, and not the rear suspension (payload), I don't think it would change the results any.

If you PM me an email address, I'll send you the worksheet I used, and you can see where the figures might diverge significantly from yours and where they came from.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:01 PM   #36
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LHaven and others, it took me a bit to get back to this. (Still doing some fall cleanup). I went out to get other weight rating numbers off the truck and more fully populated the worksheet. According to the result I need to reconsider my current combination. I should have a smaller trailer or should be towing with a 3/4 ton.
DO listen to the experienced group in these forums. And as mentioned earlier, Keystone is doing a dis-service by labeling these as 1/2 ton series trailers. All for sales. :-(
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:08 PM   #37
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And as mentioned earlier, Keystone is doing a dis-service by labeling these as 1/2 ton series trailers. All for sales. :-(

I never did the numbers, but maybe if the DW and I were twigs instead of chunks, we didn't have the two big retrievers, and we only took the rig on weekend joints to the lakeside resort instead of cross-continent long hauls, maybe, just maybe, it would be a half ton towable. But I don't think there is any way I was ever going to get there.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:19 PM   #38
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I’m having mixed feelings. The majority of our trailering is 3 to 5 night trips within a 75 mile radius. Occasionally from central Oregon to the coast, just under 200 miles away. We bought both used and have been towing/camping with these for 3 years and the combination has been performing well together. (I upgraded the tires to light truck tires vs the passenger tires the F150s come with.). I could reduce the tongue weight and hitch transfer amount by not putting anything in the bed, and placing more in the rear of the trailer, including start using the slide out rack on the back of the trailer.
Does anyone have guesses as to what the “weakest link” in the GVWR may be? Any other relatively simple things that can be done to improve the situation? Or are there other threads where this is discussed?

I didn’t mean to overtake this string direction. Thanks for the help.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:24 PM   #39
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Whenever I've done the numbers, the weakest link has been in raw payload, or in a few cases, physical hitch weight. The tongue weight of the unit overloads the TV payload figure or hitch rating (the stock hitch limit on an F150 is only 1,050 pounds) and you're out of bounds.

Now, you can try moving weight to the rear to unload the tongue, but if you don't keep the tongue around 11% or better of the total TT weight, you're going to experience sway problems on the road.
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Old 11-08-2019, 05:24 AM   #40
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I’m having mixed feelings. The majority of our trailering is 3 to 5 night trips within a 75 mile radius. Occasionally from central Oregon to the coast, just under 200 miles away. We bought both used and have been towing/camping with these for 3 years and the combination has been performing well together. (I upgraded the tires to light truck tires vs the passenger tires the F150s come with.). I could reduce the tongue weight and hitch transfer amount by not putting anything in the bed, and placing more in the rear of the trailer, including start using the slide out rack on the back of the trailer.
Does anyone have guesses as to what the “weakest link” in the GVWR may be? Any other relatively simple things that can be done to improve the situation? Or are there other threads where this is discussed?

I didn’t mean to overtake this string direction. Thanks for the help.
Your not going to like this as it's my opinion so don't be offended.

The first sentence I highlighted is you rationalizing why towing overloaded is ok. I think most folks on here have BTDTGTS. I,m included in that crowd. I was doing the same thing. Came to this forum and several people pointed it out. It's only natural that someone becomes defensive about their decisions and think that the folks telling you differently are just a bunch of "knuckle draggers" that think they are more "manly" for driving larger trucks.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I had my epiphany about 200 miles from home crossing the top of a mountain while passing an 18 wheeler. Thankfully I had cleared the truck (which started the sway) when the wind passing thru the cut in the mountain took over. I consider myself an excellent driver but that experience was unlike ANY other. Thankfully it was a multilane lane highway with shoulders as I used every inch of space between the guide rails. I was ignorant to the potential of the rig in a bad situation and never wanted to repeat that exercise again.


In all honesty the 'weakest link" is you. This isn't a personal attack, just an observation. It's humane nature that we don't want to face reality that we think we can correct the condition by applying "add ons". After all, many stores/websites sell all kinds of "fixes" right? I also realize the delima many face in the situation when you may not financially be able to replace your TV.

So I'm sure some folks will chime in with "I put these on my 1/2 ton truck and now I tow a 15K fiver no problem". Just be cognizant that they are relating their experience/opinions as well. Just know that sooner or later, given enough time and exposure to mother nature and fate, your day to prove you're rig is safe will come.

JMHO
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